News Obi-Wan Kenobi series premiering on May 27

[JD]

Yeah. They might have developed a few issues by the time of the prequels, but I don't think they were serious enough for most of them to deserve to die. If they had managed to survive the end of The Clone Wars, it probably wouldn't have been that hard to get things straightened out.

 

[HugeLobes]

Maybe it’s because I haven’t seen The Clone Wars, but unsure why the Jedi would deserve to die at all. They seem to live more or less as monks who devote themselves to keeping the peace. The only hint of negative elements comes from the Sith. You can dig down into things like recruitment practices, but the movies themselves never seem to suggest anything but virtuous intentions.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah. They might have developed a few issues by the time of the prequels, but I don't think they were serious enough for most of them to deserve to die. If they had managed to survive the end of The Clone Wars, it probably wouldn't have been that hard to get things straightened out.

I don't know, I kinda have a story in my head where Anakin didn't turn and let Mace strike Palps down, and then you have a whole new saga where the Order never fell, it just ended up essentially becoming the Empire anyway with Windu taking control and probably with the remaining Jedi split between the heretical Mindu loyalists and Yoda's rebel faction. It makes me wish they'd continued with the "Infinities" comics, and also that said comics had better writing!

Anyway: all power structures, no matter how noble or well intentioned eventually fail. Either due to the usual pattern of entrenched bureaucracy decaying into aristocratic forms over time, diminishing relevancy, or overtaken by events outside of it's control. No matter what happened, I think this was always going to be the point where the Jedi fell, one way or another. "Deserve" really doesn't enter into it IMO.

 

[fireproof78]

Deserve" really doesn't enter into it IMO.

Unless one believes in the will of the Force.

 

[Ithekro]

Taking into account bits of canon and the EU, the Jedi had a bunch or reformations and near total destruction by the Sith over the many millennia. As did the Republic. The last one was a thousand years before the Clone Wars and the galaxy was mostly stable and at peace for most of that time, but with the remaining Sith making long-term plans to crumble the Republic and Jedi in corruption and war. The attempted rebuilding of the Jedi by Luke Skywalker seems to have faltered in the Sequel Trilogy, but there is the chance that Rey will pull something off and start something new to replace both the Jedi and the Sith.

 

[JD]

I don't know, I kinda have a story in my head where Anakin didn't turn and let Mace strike Palps down, and then you have a whole new saga where the Order never fell, it just ended up essentially becoming the Empire anyway with Windu taking control and probably with the remaining Jedi split between the heretical Mindu loyalists and Yoda's rebel faction. It makes me wish they'd continued with the "Infinities" comics, and also that said comics had better writing!

That is an interesting idea. I've been thinking lately that I would love to get an alternate universe Star Wars story or series where the Jedi and the Republic never fell.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Yeah. They might have developed a few issues by the time of the prequels, but I don't think they were serious enough for most of them to deserve to die. If they had managed to survive the end of The Clone Wars, it probably wouldn't have been that hard to get things straightened out.

I hate to go to this well again, but seriously, check out Joseph Campbell. In mythic terms, the Jedi absolutely needed to be destroyed in order for a newer, healthier, diverse system to take its place.

The hubris and arrogance demonstrated by Windu and explicitly stated by Yoda are evidence of this.

Qui-Gon sensed this, too, which is why he was marginalized. It'll be interesting to see how much of this is Incorporated into Obi-Wan's story. Being Disney though, I'm not confident they'll create something that serves the story more than something that serves their bottom line.

 

[Tosk]

If hubris and arrogance is all it takes to deserve to be wiped out, I'm in big trouble.

 

[The Wormhole]

If hubris and arrogance is all it takes to deserve to be wiped out, I'm in big trouble.

Hell, the world itself is in trouble...

 

[Reverend]

As I mentioned up-thread; it's really doesn't have anything to do with "deserve" as it does "consequences".

The Order as an entity ensured it's own destruction long ago and it's Clone Wars generation that mostly just paid the price for millennia of negligence and complacency. Just as it was for the Republic, the Jedi Order slowly rotted from the inside; so slowly that precious few noticed even when the end was imminent. The Sith's revenge plot was mostly about chickens coming home to roost. Remember that the Sith were not an external hostile force, but a schismatic faction caused by some yet unknown disagreement within the Order.

Now sure, that schism led to the splinter faction turning to evil, but we don't actually know if that was intended path. From some background material that seems to originate from Lucas, it seems as though his idea was for there to have once been a Jedi who was a dissenting voice within the Order. Branded as a heretic and expelled, he took a large number of fellow Jedi with him and founded the Sith Order with his followers serving as his acolytes. Said acolytes later betrayed and murdered him, splintering the Sith into selfishly warring factions and setting the pattern that would last until Bane's Rule of Two.

But why was he branded "heretic" in the first place? No doubt the Jedi version of history paints his ideas as a dangerous path to the dark side, but that may not have been entirely the case. What if the problems we see with the Order in the PT were already in place even back then? Rigid, dogmatic thinking. Isolated from the people they claimed to serve. Bureaucratic, arrogant and unwavering in the rightness of their mandate. So wilfully ignorant of the dark side as to actually give it power and influence over them without even realising it.
Maybe had at least some of the Sith's arguments been given weight and consideration they might have steered back to the path of light and balance, saving the galaxy from millennia of strife in the process.

 

[Set Harth]

Being Disney though, I'm not confident they'll create something that serves the story more than something that serves their bottom line.

I don't think anti-Jedi sentiment really "serves the story" at this point. More like it serves the anti-Jedi faction in the fan base in its need for validation.

In mythic terms, the Jedi absolutely needed to be destroyed in order for a newer, healthier, diverse system to take its place.

The prequel order wasn't diverse enough for you?

 

[fireproof78]

hate to go to this well again, but seriously, check out Joseph Campbell. In mythic terms, the Jedi absolutely needed to be destroyed in order for a newer, healthier, diverse system to take its place.

It's a but extreme to insist they needed destruction. We are talking about the slaughter of tens of thousands of beings to restart this new system.

How does one justify destruction on that scale?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It's a but extreme to insist they needed destruction. We are talking about the slaughter of tens of thousands of beings to restart this new system.

How does one justify destruction on that scale?

It's definitely extreme. But it also fits the mythic cycle that Joseph Campbell details. In reality, it's better to affect change without mass slaughter. But the pattern fits human civilization ... The point is that we should have learned from these stories so they don't repeat in the real world. That we need to keep telling them means we have yet to learn.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The prequel order wasn't diverse enough for you?

In terms of philosophy and action and intent? The Jedi of the prequels were monolithic. Even Yoda openly chastised the ordered for being as such.

The Jedi of the prequels were part of the problem, rather than being a solution.

 

[fireproof78]

It's definitely extreme. But it also fits the mythic cycle that Joseph Campbell details. In reality, it's better to affect change without mass slaughter. But the pattern fits human civilization ... The point is that we should have learned from these stories so they don't repeat in the real world. That we need to keep telling them means we have yet to learn.

Is there a reason why humans should have learned it by now? Never mind the efforts that human beings have made in improving life span, food production, ect.

Humans are not monolithic. I have studied enough history to know that humans take time in developing new ways of thinking, largely because we learn from our relationships.

I don't know what humans should have learned by now. Campbell explored the monomyth because it is so common in a variety of cultures.

So, what should humans learn that we don't need this story anymore?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

So, what should humans learn that we don't need this story anymore?

Good questions. And no, there aren't any simple monolithic answers. The point, I would wager, is connected to that old saying that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. As a species and civilization, we're meant to grow and evolve. On the balance we've done this (e.g. slavery is no longer accepted as a status quo). But seeing how freedom of thought and speech has long been used as a means to corrupt and turn democracy into authoritarianism, this is a lesson that has yet to be learned. It's one that Campbell identified. It's one that Lucas tried to communicate. It's one we're living (at least in the United States) to this day.

If we learn the lesson, then old institutions won't need to be obliterated (like the old Jedi Order). But until we learn them, progress will only happen through such traumatic cycles analyzed by Campbell and depicted by Lucas.

 

[fireproof78]

If we learn the lesson, then old institutions won't need to be obliterated (like the old Jedi Order). But until we learn them, progress will only happen through such traumatic cycles analyzed by Campbell and depicted by Lucas.

Your point is interesting to me. Largely because stories reflect culture. So, the Sequel Trilogy is illustrating this sad reality of how humans relate to current institutions.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

So, the Sequel Trilogy is illustrating this sad reality of how humans relate to current institutions.

I definitely agree with this. Furthermore, I would posit that the extreme negative reaction to these illustrations in, say, The Last Jedi (which is brilliant in its progressive hopes for an ideal rebellion and society) are further proof of how these cautionary stories still need to be told.

 

[Booji]

I hate to go to this well again, but seriously, check out Joseph Campbell. In mythic terms, the Jedi absolutely needed to be destroyed in order for a newer, healthier, diverse system to take its place.

The hubris and arrogance demonstrated by Windu and explicitly stated by Yoda are evidence of this.

Qui-Gon sensed this, too, which is why he was marginalized. It'll be interesting to see how much of this is Incorporated into Obi-Wan's story. Being Disney though, I'm not confident they'll create something that serves the story more than something that serves their bottom line.

The entire order had fallen to the Dark Side. Yeah, it needed to go.

 

[Jedi_Master]

It's almost like Lucas put Jedi 'younglings' in the prequels without thinking through the implications.

I guess that whole "must have must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind" thing can also be worked out when the potential Jedi is like 6 or 7.

He tended to modify his overall universe to fit his current story concept, without any real interest in how that affected previous iterations.

See: Kiss - Luke, Leia