nx questions

[Timo]

Because what we see isn't always accurate. For that matter, it isn't always MEANT to be accurate. And because the script is written by writers, not effects people, and sometimes the effects people misunderstand script cues.

But the same holds true in reverse. Oftentimes, the writers don't have the slightest clue.

And Star Trek is a visual medium. In a book, I might choose to ignore the illustrations. In a comic book, not so much. In a TV show, visuals are the thing, and everything else is subservient to it. If it's different from what we think is right, then we're wrong.

Really, there might be an argument for ignoring minor VFX flubs. But three guns when we see thirteen? That's just way too silly to even be considered. We might as well say that these are in fact aircraft and the time really is 1951, and all indications to the contrary are VFX errors.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Because what we see isn't always accurate. For that matter, it isn't always MEANT to be accurate. And because the script is written by writers, not effects people, and sometimes the effects people misunderstand script cues.

But the same holds true in reverse.

No it doesn't. The writers are the ones who produce the actual screenplays, not the effects people. You won't find a situation where the writers contradict something established by the FX guys because, let's face it, the FX is based on the script, not the other way around.

Really, there might be an argument for ignoring minor VFX flubs. But three guns when we see thirteen?

But we don't see thirteen. We see THREE. What we actually see is the positions of those guns is somewhat inconsistent throughout the series, which is a VFX error (and is this anything new? It was also inconsistent in TOS and TNG).

So we can forgive FX errors and take them for what they were intended to convey. It doesn't tell us anything about the technology of the ship (and it isn't MEANT to, FYI) it simply tells us about what the ship and characters are doing.

And most telling of all: there isn't any instance in all of ENT that requires the ship to have more than four phase cannons. Even three would suffice for every possible instance of combat and use of weapons throughout the show. It would be one thing if Archer had said in Stormfront "I have thirteen phase cannons locked on your compound now." But he didn't. He said THREE. Which is all the Enterprise usually needs.

 

[Timo]

The writers are the ones who produce the actual screenplays, not the effects people.

But the effects people are the ones who produce the actual visuals, not the writers (who at most give suggestions, which may be ignored or improved upon, as often happens). Directors and actors can ignore the writers, too. As can set builders and so forth. Theoretically, the director has the last say; in practice, the specific artists in their own fields make independent decisions on many things.

There isn't any instance in all of ENT that requires the ship to have more than four phase cannons.

Nor in TNG for that hero ship to have eleven phasers. But why argue that she didn't have eleven? We could see them, in existence and in action. The enemy could target them, knock them out of action, maneuver in attempt to avoid them; the heroes would give back in various interesting ways. This was visually very important, even thought the lazy and incompetent writers completely dropped the ball on this, and thus the VFX folks gave their best effort and carried the story while the lame dialogue provided some background noise for it.

It would be one thing if Archer had said in Stormfront "I have thirteen phase cannons locked on your compound now." But he didn't. He said THREE. Which is all the Enterprise usually needs.

It would help that argument if Archer actually said "three". As far as I can tell, he didn't.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The writers are the ones who produce the actual screenplays, not the effects people.

But the effects people are the ones who produce the actual visuals, not the writers

Irrelevant. The point is the effects are supposed to reflect the story, not vice versa. Any contradiction between the two defaults to the intent of the writers.

Again, it is no different from cover illustrations in novels. That television is a visual medium doesn't change this fact; even stage production--also a visual medium--does not intend the set designs to be taken too literally.

Directors and actors can ignore the writers, too.

Which then becomes a modification to the STORY. Visual effects are not components to the story as much as they are props that help add flavor and color to the progression of the story. They are not required, or even necessarily included, for a coherent storyline (except in the event of, say, CGI aliens, but even these become only slightly more relevant than starship effects).

Remember that TOS made due with a remarkably simplistic set of special effects, with most of the action reflected in dialog and reaction shots. Exterior shots are used to ENHANCE the drama, but they are rarely story elements in and of themselves.

Nor in TNG for that hero ship to have eleven phasers.

Which is why the phaser count for the Enterprise would be debatable... IF the phasers didn't have big obvious greebles to fire from. As it stands, the number is debatable for other craft like Cardassian and Romulan warships, not to mention every Dominion craft ever built.

In the case of NX-01, the problem resides in the fact that while the ship has a certain number of port hatches for various devices, it is only ever STATED as possessing three phase cannons. The additional ports--which are never canonically established as GUN ports--either remain unused or are used for something entirely different from weapon emlpacements (one is actually used as an airlock in "Regeneration"). And it still remains a possibility that additional weapons--plasma cannons--are still installed and were never actually removed, and that plasma cannons look and function almost exactly like phase cannons.

But why argue that she didn't have eleven? We could see them, in existence and in action.

Once again: we could see TWO of them in existence and action. It does appear they were meant to be the same two we have always seen in previous episodes and that the FX people simply forgot where they put them in the first place (or, more likely, that a different FX team did a particular episode than the one before it and used the wrong hull features for the final animation).

There's no particular reason to assume the FX teams knew what they were doing when they moved the cannon locations; it's likely that they didn't, and simply rendered the weapons more or less in the general area of where they thought they had seen them on previous models while assuming--correctly--that 90% of the viewers wouldn't know the difference.

 

[Timo]

Irrelevant. The point is the effects are supposed to reflect the story, not vice versa. Any contradiction between the two defaults to the intent of the writers.

Why? If the writers had their say, there would have been something like ten starships in "Way of the Warrior", rather than the nearly fifty we saw. The VFX people produced a better story this time around. There's no justification for defaulting for the writers: just like the VFX people, they don't exist in the fictional universe, which is the end product that matters - and their role in the real universe isn't dominant in practice.

Which then becomes a modification to the STORY.

So? It just goes to show that the VFX people have control over the story as well.

Which they have in any case, indirectly: a competent writer will know what the VFX folks can and cannot do, and will write according to those limitations.

Which leads to the conclusion that a writer that insists on three cannon on the NX-01 in the latter two seasons is incompetent. Competence in ENT would require familiarity with the show, not just the writers' bible, and the show features thirteen cannon. It's not as if one could be a competent TNG writer thinking that Troi and Riker are romantically involved in the fourth season, or that the Klingon Empire is ruled by an Emperor; one has to stay up to date on developments.

Which is why the phaser count for the Enterprise would be debatable... IF the phasers didn't have big obvious greebles to fire from.

The same argument holds for NX-01, too. Her gunports are easily identifiable, exactly 14 in number, and were used consistently in the show, reflecting the fact that the CGI model was readily accessible for detailed study by the VFX artists who drew in the beams (a situation different from old style work where a team would shoot the model ship first and another would add the beams optically on that footage).

By your standards, the only debatable issues would be the turbocharger greeblies being used as further gunports, or the airlock door on the pod being used as one.

Once again: we could see TWO of them in existence and action.

Or three, or four, or five. Just not in the same scene - but still within the confines of the same story. And if the artists draw a beam coming from the lower starboard bow gunport, and two from the ports between the torpedo tubes ("Bounty"), how the hell could we argue with a straight face that the port bow gunport isn't supposed to have a gun, too? That's just asinine.

There's no particular reason to assume the FX teams knew what they were doing when they moved the cannon locations; it's likely that they didn't, and simply rendered the weapons more or less in the general area of where they thought they had seen them on previous models while assuming--correctly--that 90% of the viewers wouldn't know the difference.

The odds of that are so incredibly low as to be laughable. If such randomness were the case, the artists would never find the gunports in the first place - they are definite features, but small and inconspicuous ones. To have a beam coming from one gunport dictates knowledge of all the gunports, or of most of them anyway. If such knowledge were lacking, half the beams would be coming out of windows or running lights or RCS clusters or antennas. They aren't: exactly three gunport-less locations in the entire show project beams, and two of them could be gunports of a different shape for all we know. The pod airlock door is iffier (but, as said, modular in the original CGI model already).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Irrelevant. The point is the effects are supposed to reflect the story, not vice versa. Any contradiction between the two defaults to the intent of the writers.

Why? If the writers had their say, there would have been something like ten starships in "Way of the Warrior", rather than the nearly fifty we saw.

And the writers DIDN'T get their way, thus there is no contradiction.

I'm referring to something like a character saying "hard to starboard" and then a VFX shot of the ship turning to port. Better to chalk that up to VFX error instead of assuming that port and starboard are actually reversed on starships. I can only think of one instance in history where VFX explicitly trumped writer's intent, and that was in The Battle, where a new model was created for the Stargazer instead of redressing a constitution class; that decision came from producers, not the FX people.

So? It just goes to show that the VFX people have control over the story as well.

Nah. Just props and stylistic elements, really. They can control what the action looks like, but they have little say over what actually happens.

Which they have in any case, indirectly: a competent writer will know what the VFX folks can and cannot do, and will write according to those limitations.

Except when the writers give the VFX people WAY too much credit. As in, say, the original script for Booby Trap.

Which leads to the conclusion that a writer that insists on three cannon on the NX-01 in the latter two seasons is incompetent.

Why? The FX people are (evidently) limited to doing two phase cannons at a time.

Competence in ENT would require familiarity with the show, not just the writers' bible, and the show features thirteen cannon.

Timo, which episode of Enterprise even makes explicit mention of thirteen GUNPORTS, let alone thirteen weapons mounted in them?

Seriously, don't get too carried away with your assumptions.

Or three, or four, or five. Just not in the same scene

Or the same episode.

The odds of that are so incredibly low as to be laughable. If such randomness were the case, the artists would never find the gunports in the first place

Nobody said anything about randomness. You act as if the FX people were sitting there working with a set of ultra-detailed technical schematics and the direct supervision of Eaves and Drexler. This just aint the case; as with most scifi productions, the people who designed the model were not the people who did the FX, nor did they have a huge amount of day-to-day communications with the FX people. Mistakes do happen, as does carelessness.

To have a beam coming from one gunport dictates knowledge of all the gunports

Not at all. It simply requires one noticing such a feature in one particular place but not noticing one in another (more appropriate) place. This is exactly like the design team adding phaser cannons to DS9's docking pylons only to have the FX guys draw photon torpedoes shooting out of them. Yes, they identified a specific feature for their purposes, they just didn't bother to verify what that feature was or whether it was the correct feature for the effect they were trying to draw.

And then, as in ENT, 90% of the audience never knew the difference, so nobody--not even the original concept artists who first noticed the mistake--really cared.

 

[AstroSmurf]

^ No one cared? I know for a fact that isn't the case.

I think there is something you folks are missing here. Episodic television is written and produced VERY quickly. Most shows will go from script to air in less than eight weeks and Trek was no different. Scripts are written and rewritten in about two weeks. Pre-production lasts about a week with sets, costumes, make-up all being designed, produced/constructed in that time. Shooting will go for maybe six to ten days with a shooting day lasting 12 to 14 hours. Post-production will then go for about four weeks. This would include editing, music and special effects being created, animated and rendered. In some cases, finished special effects shots are being dropped in just hours before air time. Television happens at a break-neck speed.

So with this kind of pace, mistakes do pop up. Some are caught and corrected before the episode goes to air. But some are not either due to no one catching it in the rush to get the episode finished or lack of time. And if the production team didn't care, most of modern Trek would be one big continuity mess. It took the dedication and a constant eye for detail from all the staff to keep the Trek juggernaut from running off the canon rails.

And I wanted to thank Timo for setting the record straight. I would post something here about the NX-01 and her accouterments but he has already said everything that needed to be said.

But I do have one thing to add: According to Doug Drexler, the torpedoes launched aft in "The Expanse" actually came from the aft launchers in the saucer. The just looked like they came from the warp field controller pod. I am not sure which blog post he confirmed that in but he did confirm it. (I know how you folks like to demand proof but my memory is not that good.)

Not to muddy the waters any more than they already are but did anyone notice that the ship fired it's first photonic torpedo out of a "hatch" located between the starboard and port forward launch tubes? Every photonic torpedo after was fired using one of the existing launch tubes so one would assume this first firing location was a mistake.

 

[Timo]

But I do have one thing to add: According to Doug Drexler, the torpedoes launched aft in "The Expanse" actually came from the aft launchers in the saucer. The just looked like they came from the warp field controller pod. I am not sure which blog post he confirmed that in but he did confirm it.

I'm afraid the episode doesn't agree with Drexler...

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x26/theexpanse_432.jpg

The all-new torpedo tube is there in the pod, clearly visible. And although TrekCore caps don't show it, the torpedo that hits Duras comes out of that tube.

A similar deal to the "hatch" rig of the forward tubes may have been intended for all photonics firings from this episode on, but the idea was dropped at some point, perhaps when different artists took over. The armory set modifications would also seem to support the idea of a "tween hatch" for the photonics.

I wonder if we could get any sort of a systematic interpretation of this worked out? Such as photonics at sublight firing from the old tubes, photonics at warp firing from the new ones? (Except in "The Expanse" where our heroes would be testing the new tubes, and perhaps finding them lacking?) Or vice versa?

Dunno. It's a matter of minor retconning, completely different from Newtype's hopeless crusade against VFX consistency.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[AnyStar]

go check out yesterdays post on the Drex Files about the 2011 SOTL. his NX design will be upgraded to full TOS style!!!

maybe he'll address some of your phaser issues too...

(hmm, maybe i'll bump finishing my own 3d version in that style to next on the to-do list...)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

FWIW, the Waxing Moon designs had the photon torpedoes being loaded into the conventional tubes through side-sliding rails almost exactly like Jackil's torpedo room schematic. This eliminates the need for an additional tube, but it makes the loading mechanism for the photons a bit incomprehensible.

As for the phasers, it occurs to me that the Enterprise probably still used plasma cannons at least as often as its two prototype phase weapons even as late as Season 4. The FX might render them both the same for some reason (as they did in "Kir'Shira" and a few others) but if plasma weapons were still effective at this time, we have a justification for Kelvin's two-tiered weapon system in 2233: large plasma cannons might have remained the main battery of starships for the duration of the century until more advanced phaser weapons became available in the 2230s, allowing the phasing out of plasma weapons entirely and a whittling down to phasers and photonic torpedoes.

Which makes sense in a way. Since there's no reference to the plasma cannons being REMOVED, we know as a matter of fact that NX-01 has at least four different types of weapon systems installed. Later starships seem to reduce this to two, with some specialty munitions added for other purposes; adding quantum torpedoes years later brings it back up to three, but plasma cannons never make a comeback.

 

[Timo]

Doesn't sound completely convincing. The part about NX-01 continuing to fire her onboard plasmas, I mean. The only reason to even have plasma cannon is to have distinct VFX to beef up the battle scenes. Why imagine that there was a further major VFX error there in every episode after "Broken Bow", then, when this time around it also requires imagining that there was a further major dialogue error there in every episode, too - the failure to mention the plasma cannon? That's distancing yourself from the pseudoreality of the show way too far.

As far as we can tell, the plasma cannon did zip against the average 22nd century enemy, which could be why the Enterprise never fired those again after getting her phase guns. They were pretty good against small fightercraft in "Fortunate Son", though. Perhaps that's their continuing role between the 2150s and the 2230s: point defense against small attackers, such as Nero's missiles?

In the STXI battle, the guns firing the white bolts do appear to be secondary weaponry: they aren't used for countering the first Nero attack, and only come to play in the second attack where George Kirk knows what Nero will attack with.

It's nice to have this sort of multi-layer armament there, really. But yeah, TOS no longer has the plasma guns, so their utility must be diminishing. The Kelvin does some good point defendin' with her phasers; perhaps improved firing rate and affordability finally made those a good alternative to the plasma cannon in the mid-23rd?

As for the phase cannon being prototypes, well, they are also part of the armament of the Horizon, as well as of all the older UESF ships that are ever seen firing anything. Sounds like an established tech that was only lacking from NX-01 because it wasn't installed yet, not because it wasn't developed yet. So probably it's best to interpret Reed as saying that the phase guns of NX-01 are prototypes but not new technology; that is, guns of this particular model haven't yet been installed operationally on any vessel, but very similar guns are standard on other vessels.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Doesn't sound completely convincing. The part about NX-01 continuing to fire her onboard plasmas, I mean. The only reason to even have plasma cannon is to have distinct VFX to beef up the battle scenes. Why imagine that there was a further major VFX error there in every episode after "Broken Bow", then, when this time around it also requires imagining that there was a further major dialogue error there in every episode, too - the failure to mention the plasma cannon?

We already knew the lack of plasma cannons after Broken Bow was an error; the entire sequence in "Fight or Flight" becomes incredibly silly since, theoretically, Enterprise should still be able to resort to its plasma cannons when the spatial torpedoes fail. They are not even attempted in "Silent Enemy," and Archer instead has his armory officer and chief engineer try and bring their experimental weapons online. No real reason for this is ever given, though we might assume that plasma cannons just plain don't work and Starfleet only uses them as flares or dazzlers to distract their enemies (in which case, they need not be mentioned as serious weapons. Fired, yes, but seldom mentioned). Come to think of it, I can't actually recall whether the plasma cannons were even referred to in Broken Bow...

As far as we can tell, the plasma cannon did zip against the average 22nd century enemy, which could be why the Enterprise never fired those again after getting her phase guns.

It doesn't explain why they never fired them BEFORE getting the phase cannons. Nor does it explain why even the Macos still used plasma cannons in ground combat.

As for the phase cannon being prototypes, well, they are also part of the armament of the Horizon

No they are not. Horizon is armed with plasma cannons like the rest of the Boomers; the phase cannons are explicitly referred to as "prototypes" in Silent Enemy. The other Starfleet ships we see in "The Expanse" are probably firing plasma cannons in beam mode.

 

[Timo]

We already knew the lack of plasma cannons after Broken Bow was an error; the entire sequence in "Fight or Flight" becomes incredibly silly since, theoretically, Enterprise should still be able to resort to its plasma cannons when the spatial torpedoes fail.

This is a non-issue if our heroes know that their plasma cannon are not up to interstellar snuff. In their few appearances, they have appeared to be weaker than the spatial torpedoes, not stronger - so they would not solve anything in "Flight or Fight".

They are not even attempted in "Silent Enemy," and Archer instead has his armory officer and chief engineer try and bring their experimental weapons online. No real reason for this is ever given

The "unreal" reason given is clear enough:

Archer: "This ship just isn't equipped to handle some of the threats we're coming up against. It's time we do something about that."

Archer has every right to be aware of the true potency of his armaments. He knows the plasma guns did virtually zip in "Broken Bow", and he saw how good the spatials were in "Fight or Flight", so it's pretty clear that he knows what he is talking about. He also has every right to know how good the phase cannon are going to be (although the episode ends with him getting even more than he hoped for) - and if his experience here stems from the cannon installed on the Intrepid and other older UESF ships, then he's right to skip all toying with plasmas or spatials and go right for the weapon that can harm Klingon warbirds.

Come to think of it, I can't actually recall whether the plasma cannons were even referred to in Broken Bow...

Absolutely not. Archer doesn't even issue the firing order so that we would hear it. The ship simply dives out of the clouds, firing, without superimposed dialogue.

The first time we hear of shipboard plasma guns is "Fortunate Son", where the guest ship is first suspected of having something better than a "low-yield plasma cannon" and then referred to as having used a plasma cannon to knock out the long range sensor array of the hero ship.

It doesn't explain why they never fired them BEFORE getting the phase cannons.

We only need assume that plasma cannon were outdated technology even before the NX-01 was designed yet alone launched. Good for secondary stuff, but no good for primary combat. Not really different from how smoothbore cannon persisted on warships after the introduction of rifled guns, even though they would (due to their vastly inferior range) never see use against targets that the skipper would order destroyed by the rifles.

Nor does it explain why even the Macos still used plasma cannons in ground combat.

Apples and guavas. Handheld plasma weaponry was apparently quite potent, and handheld phasers were a real novelty in "Broken Bow". Only makes sense that the military (that is, the mud-dwelling branch of the armed forces) would stick to that which is known to work against assorted BEMs, while the Starfleet (the spaceborne branch) would go for high-tech gadgetry to gain the edge it desperately needs.

No they are not. Horizon is armed with plasma cannons like the rest of the Boomers; the phase cannons are explicitly referred to as "prototypes" in Silent Enemy. The other Starfleet ships we see in "The Expanse" are probably firing plasma cannons in beam mode.

...Going back to the "Horizon" dialogue, the Boomers do emphatically state that they don't have phase cannon, and that they do have plasma turrets. Oops. So this is a plasma bolt:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x20/horizon_649.jpg

...As opposed to these:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x12/silentenemy_429.jpg

Distinct enough IMHO that all the UESF guns after "Broken Bow" can safely be classified as phase cannon.

As for the "prototype" thing, that's neither here nor there. SM-6 is at prototype stage nowadays. Doesn't mean that surface-to-air missiles are a new technology, or even that the Raytheon Standard series is new.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We already knew the lack of plasma cannons after Broken Bow was an error; the entire sequence in "Fight or Flight" becomes incredibly silly since, theoretically, Enterprise should still be able to resort to its plasma cannons when the spatial torpedoes fail.

This is a non-issue if our heroes know that their plasma cannon are not up to interstellar snuff.

And they would have known this how? T'pol is the only officer on the entire ship with any meaningful deep space experience, let alone deep space BATTLE experience. They seemed to think their spatial torpedoes were up to the task, which they clearly weren't; there's no in-universe reason to believe they'd doubt the power of their plasma cannons.

The production reason is that the writers simply forgot about them. But we might excuse this in both cases by saying that the plasma cannons just happened to be off line for some reason and nobody needed to mention it during the episode.

Archer has every right to be aware of the true potency of his armaments.

But he isn't, or else he would have installed those phase cannons the day after "Fight or Flight." Even said episode states he doesn't really understand much about Enterprise' tactical capabilities, since he allowed his ship to put into space without its torpedo launchers functional and with its only secondary weapons not yet installed. This is like Captain Harriman saying "Well, yeah, the phasers won't be installed until Tuesday... fuck it. Let's just go."

He knows the plasma guns did virtually zip in "Broken Bow"

They didn't HIT anything in Broken Bow. How would he have known this?

Besides, though you might disagree with the implication, it's telling that Terran Empire ships in the Mirror Universe still used plasma cannons as their mainstay weapons, with relatively good results. Even if the MU plasma weapons are vastly more powerful than the Prime Universe versions, it proves that plasma cannons CAN be enhanced to a viable weapon even in the 22nd century.

The first time we hear of shipboard plasma guns is "Fortunate Son", where the guest ship is first suspected of having something better than a "low-yield plasma cannon" and then referred to as having used a plasma cannon to knock out the long range sensor array of the hero ship.

Thus proving that plasma cannons are effective weapons against Enterprise, at least; even a low yield weapon can do some damage.

We only need assume that plasma cannon were outdated technology even before the NX-01 was designed yet alone launched.

But it wasn't, or else Enterprise wouldn't have been armed with them in the first place. "Outdated" would mean "no longer useful," not "less useful than something else."

And though it's implied in the structure of the show, it still isn't canonically established that "phase weapons" are related to phasers in any way shape or form. They could just as easily be "phased plasma weapons," which is just a glorified plasma cannon anyway. 23rd century tech would might have replaced phased plasma with phased matter, making the weapons far more effective for a similar power input; meanwhile, plasma cannons and phase cannons might well be the same basic technology.

No they are not. Horizon is armed with plasma cannons like the rest of the Boomers; the phase cannons are explicitly referred to as "prototypes" in Silent Enemy. The other Starfleet ships we see in "The Expanse" are probably firing plasma cannons in beam mode.

...Going back to the "Horizon" dialogue, the Boomers do emphatically state that they don't have phase cannon, and that they do have plasma turrets. Oops. So this is a plasma bolt:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x20/horizon_649.jpg

...As opposed to these:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x12/silentenemy_429.jpg

But you're forgetting the pulse rifles in "Regenerated" and "Marauders," and later in Zero Hour, what is clearly meant to be a plasma rifle, yet fires in both pulses AND beams.

Besides which, we have known since Balance of Terror that phasers can also be fired in both beams and in pulses, and Trek has alternated between the two from episode to episode, movie to movie. We saw pulses in TWOK and TSFS, beams in TFF and TUC, beams again in Generations, pulses and beams in First Contact and Insurrection, beam phasers fired in pulses in Nemesis. In STXI, we had beam phasers on the Kelvin and pulse phasers on the Enterprise, and the 2358 hand phasers fire in pulses instead of beams.

So VFX isn't all that conclusive as you'd like to believe. If phasers, disruptors, even "polaron beams" can be fired in both modes, I don't see why plasma weapons couldn't. In point of fact, even if you assume "phase cannons" were a totally distinct weapon and not simply an upgrade of standard plasma weapons (which is not canonically established either way) that plasma weapons sometimes do fire in beams IS, in fact, canon.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Also, I've just been reminded by my dad (who is, eerily enough, a rabid Enterprise fan) that Shran's girlfriend was killed by what is in dialog called a "phase pistol," but is in fact the exact same prop as the plasma pistols used by the MACOs and Enterprise's crew before the official "phase pistol" props were introduced. This all but confirms that phase pistols and plasma weapons are virtually identical, though the actual reason for this remains a mystery.

It's possible that ALL Starfleet energy weapons--even the MACO rifles--are, in fact, phased plasma weapons; that in referencing these weapons, "phase weapon" or "plasma weapon" may be used interchangeably, kinda like the terms "rifle" and "repeater," both shortenings of the proper term "repeating rifle." Or, similarly, how dialog in some cop shows can refer to "a twelve-gage" or "a shotgun," either of which may accurately describe "a twelve-gage shotgun." In which case, the EM-33 is a less advanced plasma weapon, and the "phase pistols" they roll out in Broken Bow are just a more efficient version. Sort of like an officer trading up his Colt .45 for an M9 Baretta and saying "Ah, our new weapons are here. 9mm cartridge... it takes two different bullets, armor piercing and hollowpoint. Best not to get the two confused."

 

[Timo]

And they would have known this how? T'pol is the only officer on the entire ship with any meaningful deep space experience, let alone deep space BATTLE experience.

Yet Starfleet as of 2150s is an organization dedicated to fighting in space, and NX-01 is a ship built with extensive armaments (and Earth's first foray into that other type of space adventure, exploration). There's no good reason to think Earth would not have lots of space combat experience; Mayweather in "Fight or Flight" said his Boomer past included half a dozen hostile encounters, "Fortunate Son" showed us one, and later "Horizon" established that falling victim to violent piracy was more a norm than an exception for the Boomers. Any Boomer would know how good or bad the plasma peashooters were against space villains.

Archer may look like a complete novice, and probably indeed is less experienced in combat than many of his colleagues. He probably got the center seat by virtue of being the designer's son and an adventurer, a hellraiser to match the intended purpose of the ship (to bring Earth to interstellar prominence at long last and to fart in the direction of Vulcan), even if he was a dilettante in matters of space combat or exploration. But that's an exceptional circumstance, as is Reed being the only skilled warrior aboard. Reed complains about the latter fact often enough; it's pretty obvious that he expected to have more personnel and hardware with him, but the hasty departure in "Broken Bow" complicated matters.

Even said episode states he doesn't really understand much about Enterprise' tactical capabilities, since he allowed his ship to put into space without its torpedo launchers functional and with its only secondary weapons not yet installed. This is like Captain Harriman saying "Well, yeah, the phasers won't be installed until Tuesday... fuck it. Let's just go."

Those are invalid arguments IMHO. Archer didn't have a choice: it was either go now, or then go never. If Klaang died on him, Vulcans could stall indefinitely again. And Harriman didn't have any reason to prepare for combat in ST:GEN. Doesn't mean either of the skippers would have been unaware of the tactical capabilities of their vessels.

This is more convincing:

But he isn't, or else he would have installed those phase cannons the day after "Fight or Flight."

That is, it convinces me that the plasma peashooters were indeed good for something. Just not for the silent enemy in "Silent Enemy"... But Archer would be moving from known to unknown space, and encountering new villains. It does make sense for him to only gradually come to the decision to upgun, or perhaps to turn back; "Silent Enemy" would have been the experience/experiment that convinced him to do the former rather than the latter.

But it wasn't, or else Enterprise wouldn't have been armed with them in the first place. "Outdated" would mean "no longer useful," not "less useful than something else."

Semantics. I choose the latter meaning; please read the post with that in mind. If you must, mentally insert some other word of your choosing to describe the concept. Perhaps "no longer cutting edge"?

In the real world, outdated gear gets used in second-tier duties more often than not.

And though it's implied in the structure of the show, it still isn't canonically established that "phase weapons" are related to phasers in any way shape or form. They could just as easily be "phased plasma weapons," which is just a glorified plasma cannon anyway.

Quite possible. (Them being glorified plasma weapons, that is. Their relationship to phasers is pretty clear from the stun function.)

Yet there's a distinct difference between unglorified and glorified plasma weapons in the show. The former appear as short pulses, the latter as sustained beams - and the latter are much preferred when NX-01 fights. It doesn't make sense to interpret the beams as evidence that plasma guns are still in use: it's evidence for just the opposite, that phase guns are.

Going back to "Broken Bow" and comparing with "Horizon", it seems the VFX is very consistent after all. The color and shape of the plasma bolts is identical: it's just that the bolts were seen from dead ahead or behind in the pilot episode, and thus didn't appear similarly elongated.

But you're forgetting the pulse rifles in "Regenerated" and "Marauders," and later in Zero Hour, what is clearly meant to be a plasma rifle, yet fires in both pulses AND beams.

Forgetting, how?

Anyway, the VFX artists and prop makers knew what they were doing here. None of your "they did a hack job and didn't communicate and got their pay and drank it" arguments here. Go watch the screencaps: the prop builders carefully inserted an all-new tube to the plasma rifles of the NX-01 security force, above the plasma barrel, and the VFX people carefully drew the phase beams as coming from this tube, not from the plasma barrel. It's a dual weapon, by specific and deliberate design. These people do care.

So VFX isn't all that conclusive as you'd like to believe. If phasers, disruptors, even "polaron beams" can be fired in both modes, I don't see why plasma weapons couldn't.

But that's pretty desperate. We have a distinct effect for plasma guns in "Horizon", identical to that in "Broken Bow" where we know phase guns weren't in use. We have another distinct effect for phase guns. We see the latter was adopted after phase guns were installed. And we learn that the ship is upgunned for Season Three, after which she starts firing phase gun VFX beams from multiple locations.

It's simply way too convoluted to try and pretend that this is some sort of a conspiracy of uncaring VFX hacks against the best efforts of expert writers, all intended to hide the fact that plasma guns remain Starfleet's weapon of choice. That's loony. What we see is a consistent and from the looks of it deliberate development that culminates in the ship having 13 phase cannon, and just possibly two remaining plasma cannon, in the latter two seasons.

Trying to pretend otherwise has two obvious counterindications: it makes a mess of the fictional universe for no good reason, and it is an untrue description of what happened in the real universe. "VFX people got confused" is a false argument: they did not. Writers may have gotten confused at times, but the VFX people clearly had a set of instructions they consistently followed, or else the results wouldn't be so picture-perfect.

The torpedo VFX is a bit different, what with the brief attempt at new hatches in "The Expanse". But even there our best bet is to take what we see over what we hear - especially because there's nothing we'd hear that would contradict what we see. For all we know, there indeed always was a torpedo tube in the aft pod, just like we explicitly saw in "The Expanse", and this tube fired in "Fight or Flight" when most other weaponry was still offline, yet the other two tubes in the main hull (as seen up close and in action in, say, "The Crossing") were preferable for their better service access and bigger magazines or whatever. Just remember WWI and some WWII subs, which crammed torpedo tubes in whichever corner of the hull they possibly could, resulting in awkward single-shot tubes that got used when the reloadable main tubes weren't an option.

Nothing against the "plasma and phase are virtually identical" argument here. It's just that they are still distinct enough to have their own VFX and their own consistent applications: plasma for early ship guns, phase for modern ship guns; plasma for early Starfleet guns and MACO guns, phase for modern Starfleet guns. An upgrade to the latter seems a desired development, so older hardware no doubt gets modified whenever possible. Perhaps this is possible with handguns, too (the plasma pistol fate reflecting the fate of the hand laser prop from "The Cage": minimal modifications created/added phase functionalities).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And they would have known this how? T'pol is the only officer on the entire ship with any meaningful deep space experience, let alone deep space BATTLE experience.

Yet Starfleet as of 2150s is an organization dedicated to fighting in space

Sure they are. That doesn't mean they know how. At this point in their history Earth Starfleet's tactical capabilities and battle experience is about as sophisticated the Somolian Air Force: almost--but not quite entirely--non-existent.

There's no good reason to think Earth would not have lots of space combat experience

I said they have no DEEP SPACE experience, which they don't. The only one who does is Travis, known around these part as " "the black Wesley Crusher." Lack of deep space experience means, by definition, a lack of deep space COMBAT experience.

If Archer was a former Boomer skipper pressed into service by Starfleet, that would be one thing. But he's not: he's a former test pilot who skated to the Captaincy on his father's coattails. The closest thing they have to an experienced combat officer is Reed, who also has no deep space experience and just happens to be extremely military minded for some reason.

Mayweather in "Fight or Flight" said his Boomer past included half a dozen hostile encounters

Which, on a merchant vessel, is as interesting as it is irrelevant. You might as well count "growing up in Compton" as "battlefield experience."

Any Boomer would know how good or bad the plasma peashooters were against space villains.

Which has what to do with Jonathan Archer?

Those are invalid arguments IMHO. Archer didn't have a choice: it was either go now, or then go never.

Actually, he still had the option of returning to Earth to finish outfitting his ship before actually beginning his mission. Besides which, his entire motivation for taking Klang back to the Klingons was just so he could rub the Vulcans' nose in his having successfully accomplished a mission despite their instances that Starfleet wasn't ready for prime time.

Essentially, he rushed into the mission just to prove them wrong, and was so confident that they WERE wrong that he--ironically--failed to return to Earth afterwards to make sure he was ready for prime time.

And Harriman didn't have any reason to prepare for combat in ST:GEN.

Exactly: Harriman was conducting a shakedown cruise for some news reporters and a visiting VIP.

Now imagine if Harriman, having saved the Lacul survivors from certain death and even lost one of those VIP in a terrible accident, decided to drop those passengers off at the nearest starbase and continue on to his deep space exploration mission without bothering to return to space dock to have his tractor beams, medical staff, photon torpedoes and phaser weapons installed and activated. Come Tuesday morning, alot of people are going to be shaking their heads in wonder.

Yet there's a distinct difference between unglorified and glorified plasma weapons in the show. The former appear as short pulses, the latter as sustained beams

Except when they don't, as is the case in "Regeneration" and "Zero Hour" where we see plasma rifles firing in beams and pulses, and also the shuttlepods plasma cannons in "Awakening." Even more troubling is the fact that Enterprise fires on the borgified transport from weapons on its dorsal section; as this is a season-2 episode prior to the Xindi incident, it's highly improbable they would have had a reason and the spare time to build and install two additional phase cannons (for a ship that in the first place was only designed to carry three of them)

But you're forgetting the pulse rifles in "Regenerated" and "Marauders," and later in Zero Hour, what is clearly meant to be a plasma rifle, yet fires in both pulses AND beams.

Forgetting, how?

Maybe "forgetting" is the wrong word. How about "choosing to ignore"?

Anyway, the VFX artists and prop makers knew what they were doing here. None of your "they did a hack job and didn't communicate and got their pay and drank it" arguments here. Go watch the screencaps: the prop builders carefully inserted an all-new tube to the plasma rifles of the NX-01 security force, above the plasma barrel, and the VFX people carefully drew the phase beams as coming from this tube, not from the plasma barrel.

Except when we see the weapon firing in pulses again in "Zero Hour," from the upper barrel no less.

Besides--speaking of screencaps--the first time we see the weapon with the second barrel, it's being used by the crew of the Fortunate; how did a bunch of civilians on a cargo ship get access to phase weapons that even Starfleet considers brand new? Unless both versions of the pulse rifle are already pretty commonplace and neither are "phase weapons" of any kind?

It's a dual weapon, by specific and deliberate design.

You do know it's a repainted redress of the Jem'hadar rifle, right?

So VFX isn't all that conclusive as you'd like to believe. If phasers, disruptors, even "polaron beams" can be fired in both modes, I don't see why plasma weapons couldn't.

But that's pretty desperate. We have a distinct effect for plasma guns in "Horizon", identical to that in "Broken Bow" where we know phase guns weren't in use.

Which makes exactly zero difference since we also have the beam effects from plasma weapons elsewhere in the series. It's clear that high-end Starfleet plasma weapons can fire in both modes, just as phaser weapons can do this a hundred years later.

It's simply way too convoluted to try and pretend that this is some sort of a conspiracy of uncaring VFX hacks against the best efforts of expert writers, all intended to hide the fact that plasma guns remain Starfleet's weapon of choice. That's loony.

It's also a strawman.

Trying to pretend otherwise has two obvious counterindications: it makes a mess of the fictional universe for no good reason

What's messy about a specific weapon having more than one firing mode? Even slug throwers can toggle between fully and semi-automatic. And if an M1 Garand looks and sounds completely different from a Tommy Gun, you're gonna start complaining that they must be fundamentally different... based on the sound effects?

"VFX people got confused" is a false argument: they did not.

Though I cannot for the life of me comprehend why, I'll just take it as a given that you believe the FX team at ILM is absolutely 100% infallible and couldn't possibly have made any error in the entire four year span of the show.

Especially when there are unambiguous examples of such errors in continuity, and your preferred explanation is "the writers screwed up," which is just plain weird. I mean, unless you think writers are people who come along and write the transcript of each scene after it's filmed...

Nothing against the "plasma and phase are virtually identical" argument here. It's just that they are still distinct enough to have their own VFX and their own consistent applications

Except when it isn't. As you are again "forgetting" (as in "choosing to ignore") from Awakening/Kir'Shira:

A plasma cannon,that fires in beams.

But, you're right. It must have been the writers who screwed up by going back and writing "plasma cannon" when they should have put "phasers."

 

[Major Chord]

Not going to quote various points of this whole discussion, but let me just say that there must have been a little bit of confusion, at least in the VFX of hand weapons, as this guy, holding this weapon fired a beam at the string creature in Vox Sola, just before running out of the cargo bay. I'm all for the 2 barreled rifle design being one specially adapted for firing both plasma pulses, and phased energy beams (even if it's a modified version of the weapon seen in Fortunate Son...for all we know, one of those barrels could have been a flashlight, laser sight...even a slug thrower.) However, I fully believe that it was the intention of both the writers, and VFX teams for Enterprise to be armed with phase cannon, and torpedoes. That's what we see her use after Broken Bow, and that's what's referred to on screen. She may have retained a few of her old load out, but she didn't use them onscreen after the first episode.

The shuttles could have been originally outfitted with plasma weapons, then upgraded with phase weapons. Afterall, they have massive, human sized ship-destroying phase weapons, and hand held variants...it makes sense for them to have a medium sized one. We don't see the shuttles' phase weapons firing from the same spots as the plasma cannons did (the phase weapons fire from below the nose, and there's only one, compared to two plasma cannons, mounted on the sides of the pod), so we might just as well assume that they were eventually outfitted to carry both.

What's messy about a specific weapon having more than one firing mode? Even slug throwers can toggle between fully and semi-automatic. And if an M1 Garand looks and sounds completely different from a Tommy Gun, you're gonna start complaining that they must be fundamentally different... based on the sound effects?

Well...yeah, because they are fundamentally different. Sure, both fire bullets, and both share some basic components such as a trigger, but stock, and barrel, but they operate on totally different principals. The Thompson is fully automatic, with the ability to switch to semi-auto, while the M1 is only capable of semi auto fire. Then there's the fact that they use different methods of operation (the M1 uses a gas system to reload, while the Thompson uses the recoil of the fired round to reload), that they use different calibers of bullet, and the fact that they were meant to fill different roles on the battlefield.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

What's messy about a specific weapon having more than one firing mode? Even slug throwers can toggle between fully and semi-automatic. And if an M1 Garand looks and sounds completely different from a Tommy Gun, you're gonna start complaining that they must be fundamentally different... based on the sound effects?

Well...yeah, because they are fundamentally different. Sure, both fire bullets, and both share some basic components such as a trigger, but stock, and barrel, but they operate on totally different principals.

Illustrating my point nicely.

An M1 Garand fires rifle bullets while the Thompson fires pistol bullets; apart from that, the only basic difference is in their rate of fire, which is a bit of mechanical detailing. Their FUNDAMENTAL operations are identical: a solid slug propelled by chemical explosives, spun along their axis by a rifled barrel.

I had some fun with this last night using my (mysteriously un-terminated) access to my old school's research network. As I expected, it's possible to blow "bubbles" of plasma using spheromaks that will be coherent for a few seconds or so owing to their own magnetic field. It seems to me that if you shoot the plasma bubbles at a high enough rate of speed and at a high enough frequency, their magnetic fields would recombine (recombinant magnetic fields is one of the things Spheromaks are notable for) and the effect would be similar to a BEAM of high speed plasma.

Drop in some convenient technobabble--that the frequency of the weapon has to release the plasma pulses in a specific frequency to keep them all in the same phase--and you've got a phased plasma cannon. Therefore, phased cannons and plasma cannons could easily be the exact same weapon, and it only takes a small amount of modification to convert a plasma weapon to operate in "phased beam" mode. Dedicated purpose built phase weapons would have certain advantages, but aren't a completely different type of weapon (or else the VFX confusion would be completely inexplicable. They almost HAVE to operate the same way considering what we've seen).