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nx questions

judge alba

senior street judge
Commodore
I came across a size for the NX class and was wondering if this the official size. it comes in at:-

130 meters long
129 meters wide
32 meters high

the same source says the weapons layout of the NX is 12 phase cannons and 6 torpedo tubes which seems rather high to me.

I ask as i'm designing a class that comes just after the nx.

sorry if this has been asked before.
 
Well, ditl.org's article on the Canon compliment of the NX puts it at 12, which seems reasonable to me.

http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/pagarticle.php?40

They started with 3, but I have no problem with them increasing that number to better cover the rest of the ship in combat, so long as places just aren't pulled out of thin air. As long as there's an actual port, I'm happy. And as for the torpedo tubes, there are 6 on the model. All on F-Deck, ventral saucer. 4 fore and 2 aft. Considering that the tubes were single shot, instead of the multi-launch tubes we see in TNG, and that reloading seemed to take a bit more time, that number too seems solid.
 
I believe the onscreen number of locations seen firing a beam weapon is actually thirteen: in the third season, a beam was once or twice seen coming from the round thing at the back of the pod between the engine booms, even though that round thing is shaped a bit differently from the other twelve gunports.

Also, while there are twelve of those "intended" gunports, the ship never fired any beams from the two ports just before the bridge. Instead, we could argue that she fired plasma bolts from those ports in "Broken Bow", before the installation of the first phase cannon. Perhaps the plasma guns were never removed?

The count of firing locations comes up to the full thirteen because, even though those two ports were never used, the VFX artists did draw beams coming out from the "turbocharger" domes on top of the engine booms in many Season Three and Season Four battles.

Also, the model clearly has four forward and two aft tubes for firing "spatial torpedoes". But the ship is later refitted for firing photon torpedoes - and the first photon torpedo spits out aft from the pod between the engine booms! There is no visible torpedo tube there previously, and the location appears smooth afterwards, too, but apparently a flap has been installed to cover this seventh tube:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x26/theexpanse_432.jpg

Whether the flap was always there or was installed in the refit in "The Expanse" is unknown. To be fair, even aft spatial torpedoes in the earlier episodes sometimes seemed to come out of this pod, but we could always pretend they came from the real rear tubes because the camera was a great distance above the ship which thus would have hidden the first couple of dozen meters of the torpedo's flightpath anyway. We cannot use this argument for the aft photon torpedo tube in "The Expanse", though, because the camera is merciless there.

Perhaps we should now question whether the ship actually has nine tubes? There would be the six spatial torpedo tubes and at least this one dedicated aft photon torpedo tube, but perhaps there are also two forward photon torpedo tubes beneath similar covering flaps? The armory set at least seems to show a photon torpedo loader right between the spatial torpedo loaders, so a hidden tube could also sit between each pair of visible forward tubes.

However, here the visual effects from S3 and S4 episodes show forward photon torpedoes coming out from the perfectly visible forward spatial torpedo holes. So perhaps seven tubes is the final number after all.

As for the size of the ship, 32 meters total height would make for an awfully flat ship, if one has to fit at least five full decks plus the bridge in the saucer. I have rather seen 225 meters suggested for the total length of the ship, thus making the saucer a little bit bigger than in Kirk's TOS ship (about 136 meters across rather than 127); this is what Foundation Imaging used when shooting the ship, as per Rob Bonchune. And he says he got the dimensions from Doug Drexler, who was responsible for pretty much all that is "real" or "thought out" about NX-01. That's as far as design intent goes; the onscreen reality may differ in places.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Using the LCARS cutaway as a quick reference, 32 metres would mean those standard decks come in at just under 3 (9'7") metres high - that's not too bad! Would the sets allow it or are they the standard 10' ones we've come to see over the years?
 
Ah. I wouldn't necessarily rely on those alone, since a lot of the work there is fan based and not reliable.
 
...However, the Waxing Moon Designs effort on NX-01 is a couple of orders of magnitude better than any official attempt at any other starship, including both Sternbach and Wildfire E-Ds and FJ's E-nil...

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/enterprise-nx-01-deckplans.php

Yet the Waxing Moon blueprints specify the 225 meter length intended by Drexler and Bonchune, and the other set of NX-01 'prints at Cygnus X-1, by Kennedy Shipyards, doesn't seem to be accessible yet.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That article seems to establish things that were less than established by the show itself...

To nitpick, we don't really know that NX-01 would have been the first ship to possess technology X or Y. All sorts of testbed ships might have gone to warp 5 before her, or operated transporters before her, or fired phase cannon or photonic torpedoes before her. Some operational ships may have had those capabilities first, too.

On a more relevant note, the idea that Archer's "Broken Bow" crew strength could be considered "standard" is a bit unlikely. Archer sailed out on an ahead-of-schedule milk run, not on his intended mission of interstellar exploration. Odds are that he left half his crew ashore; he had plenty of problems getting key officers aboard in time, including having to personally come and lure the communications and linguistics specialist.

With just eighty people there, the ship didn't seem to have "fighting strength": Reed looked like the only person with a specific military training and role. Yet the ship was certainly built for fighting, and was part of a Starfleet operating plenty of warships of preceding types. Archer is likely to have left his gunners ashore for the "Broken Bow" mission, along with his scientists and their instrumentation. What he'd need would be engineers to nurse the new warp drive, a doctor to keep Klaang alive, and the cunning linguist to get him through Klingon formalities.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...However, the Waxing Moon Designs effort on NX-01 is a couple of orders of magnitude better than any official attempt at any other starship, including both Sternbach and Wildfire E-Ds and FJ's E-nil...

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/enterprise-nx-01-deckplans.php

Yet the Waxing Moon blueprints specify the 225 meter length intended by Drexler and Bonchune, and the other set of NX-01 'prints at Cygnus X-1, by Kennedy Shipyards, doesn't seem to be accessible yet.

Timo Saloniemi

Meh... you're better off going straight to the source.

http://www.waxingmoondesign.com/NX01MainPage.html


For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the ship always had 3 and only 3 phase cannons the entire time and an unspecified number of plasma cannons. I assume this because 1) dialog suggests a fairly limited number even in the latter seasons and 2) the VFX on Enterprise was even more fickle and inconsistent than other trek productions and therefore indications of additional weapon emplacements can be safely ignored as errors.

On a more relevant note, the idea that Archer's "Broken Bow" crew strength could be considered "standard" is a bit unlikely. Archer sailed out on an ahead-of-schedule milk run, not on his intended mission of interstellar exploration. Odds are that he left half his crew ashore; he had plenty of problems getting key officers aboard in time, including having to personally come and lure the communications and linguistics specialist.

That's not a very good point you want to be making since it only reinforces my perception of Archer as an incompetent weenie who wouldn't have been serving coffee on the Enterprise if not for his father's legacy.

Of course, being an incompetent weenie, and still demonstrating that general lack of ability to foresee the obvious, he probably wouldn't have bothered to add the additional phase cannons to his ship, gambling on the photon(ic) torpedoes to be enough.
 
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the ship always had 3 and only 3 phase cannons the entire time and an unspecified number of plasma cannons. I assume this because 1) dialog suggests a fairly limited number even in the latter seasons and 2) the VFX on Enterprise was even more fickle and inconsistent than other trek productions and therefore indications of additional weapon emplacements can be safely ignored as errors.

That sounds a bit extreme. I mean, "three" for what is shown to be thirteen?

Why? What dialogue demand would there be for a limited number of cannon? "Silent Enemy" specifically tells us that the ship is severely underarmed and is scraping together some of the intended armament from available components and spares. At first three cannon emerge; later, three more are shown in action.

"The Expanse" then brings the ship back to proper UESF maintenance assets, and subsequently the ship sports thirteen cannon. That's only logical and to be expected.

Also, the only time there was a VFX "error" on phase cannon beam placement was when beams were shown coming out of the "turbocharger" caps; all the other orifices used for beams were specified as being available for precisely that use by the makers of the model. And nothing in the show itself precluded the "turbochargers" from being phase cannon, too, or necessitated them being the plasma recharging doodads that the designers had intended. That's way different from the other shows where beams erupted from locations that didn't look a bit like a "weapon emplacement" as defined by the conventions of the show in question.

That's not a very good point you want to be making since it only reinforces my perception of Archer as an incompetent weenie who wouldn't have been serving coffee on the Enterprise if not for his father's legacy.

Of course, being an incompetent weenie, and still demonstrating that general lack of ability to foresee the obvious, he probably wouldn't have bothered to add the additional phase cannons to his ship, gambling on the photon(ic) torpedoes to be enough.

A strange rant that doesn't seem to justify any change in anybody's assumptions. We saw stuff on screen. It doesn't contradict anything else on screen. Choosing to disbelieve in it is... Odd.

Timo Saloniemi
 
the actual number of phasers cant actually be counted by the number of ports. i'll have to find out where i read it from, but each port had several devices that could be deployed, not each port had a phaser, some were other forms of equipment.
 
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the ship always had 3 and only 3 phase cannons the entire time and an unspecified number of plasma cannons. I assume this because 1) dialog suggests a fairly limited number even in the latter seasons and 2) the VFX on Enterprise was even more fickle and inconsistent than other trek productions and therefore indications of additional weapon emplacements can be safely ignored as errors.

That sounds a bit extreme. I mean, "three" for what is shown to be thirteen?
It's not exactly shown since only two or three ever fire at one time (par for the course Trekwise, I know).

Why? What dialogue demand would there be for a limited number of cannon? "Silent Enemy" specifically tells us that the ship is severely underarmed
And yet Silent Enemy specifically tells us the ship was DESIGNED to house three of those cannons.

"The Expanse" then brings the ship back to proper UESF maintenance assets, and subsequently the ship sports thirteen cannon.
Except later in The Expanse" we have Reed saying that a shot from the Klingons has knocked out "both forward phase cannons," reducing the number back to three (unless the other 11 cannons are all mounted aft:rolleyes:).

Also, the only time there was a VFX "error" on phase cannon beam placement was when beams were shown coming out of the "turbocharger" caps
That and "Shockwave Part II" where the beams are firing from the lower cannons yet striking targets ABOVE the ship. It's similar to the error in "Cause and Effect" where the Bozeman rams the Enterprise' nacelle at such an angle that it couldn't have actually TOUCHED the nacelle without hitting the saucer first.

A strange rant that doesn't seem to justify any change in anybody's assumptions. We saw stuff on screen. It doesn't contradict anything else on screen.
But again, we never saw "thirteen phase cannons" firing on a target. We saw TWO phase cannons at any given time, and their location shifted as VFX artists apparently forgot where they were supposed to be located (as they have on various occasions with various starships over the years). This is exactly like the energy beam from the "phaser bank" in Encounter at Farpoint.

And there's Reed's line in "The Augments," saying "The Aft Cannon is online, but just barely."

Seems like three phase cannons, four spatial torpedo tubes, two photon torpedo tubes and an unknown number of plasma cannons altogether. Not much more than that.
 
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Is it too much of a stretch for the forward cannons to be used out of both the dorsal and ventral tubes? As in the cannon pops out of one or the other.
 
It's not exactly shown since only two or three ever fire at one time (par for the course Trekwise, I know).

One could well argue that any single cannon can channel the total output of the ship for destructive purposes, and multiple cannon exist only because of the need to cover multiple angles, to cool down individual emitters between shots, and for redundancy. After all, just as you say, firing from just one or two emitters is a prominent Trek feature.

And yet Silent Enemy specifically tells us the ship was DESIGNED to house three of those cannons.

True. But the ship still had thirteen gunports from the very start. Design intent may well have been to carry three phase cannon, five plasma cannon and five railguns, but experience showed that only the first one was a worthwhile weapon - experience only gained through the exploits of NX-01 herself.

Except later in The Expanse" we have Reed saying that a shot from the Klingons has knocked out "both forward phase cannons," reducing the number back to three (unless the other 11 cannons are all mounted aft:rolleyes:).

FWIW, the gunports are grouped so that there are four ahead of the bridge above and four below the saucer, then two in each of the booms (although one in each was originally intended to be this "plasma recharger" thing), then one in the rear pod. To satisfy semantics, we could argue that a "cannon" actually refers to a pair. But then again, two of the dorsal forward ports were never shown firing anything much - except perhaps plasma bolts in "Broken Bow". So "both forward cannon" may well refer to the bowmost gunports, those just behind the deflector dish...

That and "Shockwave Part II" where the beams are firing from the lower cannons yet striking targets ABOVE the ship. It's similar to the error in "Cause and Effect" where the Bozeman rams the Enterprise' nacelle at such an angle that it couldn't have actually TOUCHED the nacelle without hitting the saucer first.

Granted - but that's a somewhat different category of VFX error, similar to scaling problems or lighting issues and IMHO dissimilar to actual "misuse of a feature".

But again, we never saw "thirteen phase cannons" firing on a target. We saw TWO phase cannons at any given time, and their location shifted as VFX artists apparently forgot where they were supposed to be located (as they have on various occasions with various starships over the years). This is exactly like the energy beam from the "phaser bank" in Encounter at Farpoint.

In the backstage sense, it's very different - the VFX people knew perfectly well where they were allowed to have beams, and they used all those options - and, remarkably, never really used anything that wasn't an option (unless we choose to believe in the never-established "turbocharger caps").

The end result may be similar, of course... Except that it isn't. Drexler designed the gunports to house guns (or other devices as needed - I believe Echo One deploys from a gunport, but long before there's a gun there). They did. Probert designed the phaser strips to be phaser strips. Yet beams emerged from the (admittedly noncanon) Yacht and the (established) torpedo tube. So these end results aren't really the same.

Seems like three phase cannons, four spatial torpedo tubes, two photon torpedo tubes and an unknown number of plasma cannons altogether. Not much more than that.

Nope - sounds like that. Seems something else again.

Did the E-D have one phaser, or two, or eleven? Dialogue never referred to any other number of phasers besides one, even though this one could be in plural at times. Yet we saw eleven emitters in action (if we accept symmetry as proof for those that didn't fire), eleven built on the model, eleven intended.

Dialogue doesn't really contradict the existence of eleven strips on the NCC-1701-D, or thirteen cannon on the NX-01. It may suggest other things if taken alone, but together with visuals it still supports the eleven/thirteen interpretation. It just doesn't make much sense to construe a view of a fictional universe where the reality shifts with the viewpoint (or when viewpoint shifts to hearpoint)...

"The Aft Cannon is online, but just barely."

Actually, it's more like "The aft cannon's online", which may be read as "The aft cannons online" or "The aft cannon (plural) online". :devil:

Is it too much of a stretch for the forward cannons to be used out of both the dorsal and ventral tubes? As in the cannon pops out of one or the other.

The ones just ahead of the bridge are quite a bit farther forward than the corresponding ventral ones between the torpedo tubes. However, the ones next to the corners of the deflector dish do seem symmetrically mounted, in a very thin part of the saucer, and could well be single cannon firing above or below as needed.

The ports on the booms are also on the same vertical axis, and could be the famed "aft" cannon, again single cannon per boom. However, the dorsal gunports on the booms don't ever really open for firing - instead, the beams are drawn as emanating from the "turbochargers" a bit farther forward. So we still have to assume two separate emitters per boom, alas.

Minimum number of emitters would be nine, if we accept four shafts that allow both dorsal and ventral firing, and consider symmetry. Possibly eight if we ignore symmetry and say that only one of the booms has a ventral cannon.

Timo Saloniemi
 
True. But the ship still had thirteen gunports from the very start. Design intent may well have been to carry three phase cannon, five plasma cannon and five railguns, but experience showed that only the first one was a worthwhile weapon - experience only gained through the exploits of NX-01 herself.
Which doesn't imply those armaments would have been fitted out on ENTERPRISE, does it?

FWIW, the gunports are grouped so that there are four ahead of the bridge above and four below the saucer, then two in each of the booms (although one in each was originally intended to be this "plasma recharger" thing), then one in the rear pod. To satisfy semantics, we could argue that a "cannon" actually refers to a pair. But then again, two of the dorsal forward ports were never shown firing anything much - except perhaps plasma bolts in "Broken Bow". So "both forward cannon" may well refer to the bowmost gunports, those just behind the deflector dish...
Except plot logic requires Enterprise not to be able to use its forward phase cannons. AT ALL.

Granted - but that's a somewhat different category of VFX error, similar to scaling problems or lighting issues and IMHO dissimilar to actual "misuse of a feature".
Misuse of an angle, to be sure. That's the use of the ventral phase cannons to fire at a target ABOVE the ship.

In the backstage sense, it's very different - the VFX people knew perfectly well where they were allowed to have beams
Yes and no. They knew that their beams were supposed to come from obvious and clearly-rendered cannons, but that doesn't mean they had any idea where the CANNONS were supposed to be. This is evidenced by their occasionally having beams fire out of wrong features in angles where the cannons weren't visible, not to mention similar goofs as far as photon torpedoes (firing from the warp governor as well as the deflector dish on occasions). And there has been at least one instance of phasers being fired from the warp governor as well.

The end result may be similar, of course... Except that it isn't. Drexler designed the gunports to house guns
But Drexler didn't do the VFX single handedly. The effects people may have known there were gunports there, but it's clear they didn't always pay attention to which ones or how many were in service.

Nope - sounds like that. Seems something else again.

Did the E-D have one phaser, or two, or eleven? Dialogue never referred to any other number of phasers besides one, even though this one could be in plural at times.
Actually, in all of TNG I don't believe there is ever reference to THE aft phaser or THE forward phaser bank. It is always plural, meaning at least two, and specific numbers are never given.

Reed said "the aft canon." Not ambiguous, not implicit that there were others, but THE aft canon. Singular, not plural. And in other references we have him referring to "both forward phase cannons," meaning all two of them. It's not really that ambiguous, Timo, in fact there isn't any visual or dialog evidence in the entire show that implies their having more than this.

Yet we saw eleven emitters in action
No: again, we saw THREE emitters in action, and their position appeared to shift inconsistently from episode to episode. This could be interpreted to mean there are a dozen phase cannons on the ship, but dialog and plot logic do not support this proposition; the more likely explanation is that the position of those three emitters really did wander as VFX artists simply forgot where to put them.

Actually, it's more like "The aft cannon's online", which may be read as "The aft cannons online" or "The aft cannon (plural) online".
Except that Reed is too uptight and proper to be caught mangling the English language even under fire.:cool:
 
Which doesn't imply those armaments would have been fitted out on ENTERPRISE, does it?

Nope - but it does sort of imply that Starfleet built the ship with thirteen guns in mind, even if NX-01 never received her intended armament before launch. And we do have every reason to think the ship sailed out badly underarmed, and no pressing reason to think that the "Silent Enemy" work would have completely amended that situation.

Except plot logic requires Enterprise not to be able to use its forward phase cannons. AT ALL.

That can be made to work... Assume the dorsal pair just ahead of the bridge aren't phase cannon. Then assume there are two types of forward cannon to choose from: the pair next to the deflector (firing both up and down), and the pair between the torpedo tubes. With both pairs out of action, there's no forward-firing artillery there.

There's also something of a tendency to use the between-tubes guns for heavy work, and the extreme bow guns for secondary mayhem such as destroying the decoy in "Bounty". All the more reason to refer to "both" forward guns: the big ones and the little ones.

One could spin an entire set of terminology out of that: "forward" guns for the two forward pairs, "amidship" guns for the turbocharger caps, and "aft" guns for the boom guns, plus possibly "pod" gun for the thirteenth beam emission point. Only 50% supported by the dialogue, but never quite contradicted, either.

Misuse of an angle, to be sure. That's the use of the ventral phase cannons to fire at a target ABOVE the ship.

Agreed. But the location of those cannon was known to the artists, and correctly used for the starting point of the beam.

This is evidenced by their occasionally having beams fire out of wrong features in angles where the cannons weren't visible

But practically every shot can be backtracked to a really existing gunport: ten of the fourteen ones extant were used correctly, four were left unused, and three quite appropriate features were adopted as guns and consistently used as such.

not to mention similar goofs as far as photon torpedoes (firing from the warp governor as well as the deflector dish on occasions).

The former ain't really a goof: in "The Expanse", a photon torpedo tube was lovingly rendered as being present in the governor pod, albeit behind a hatch that perfectly concealed it on other occasions. That legitimizes all later uses, and might legitimize the stern shot in "Fight or Flight" although that can also be explained as the torp really coming from beneath the ship, from one of the visible aft tubes.

Which episode had the latter?

And there has been at least one instance of phasers being fired from the warp governor as well.

Yeah, the thirteenth location in the series (collect them all!). There is a port there, to be sure, at the exact right location. Looks like a docking port, but could be a gunport just as well.

(Actually, the pod seems to have a major plug-in/pull-out component that includes the docking port and the sensor cluster above it. Could be that it was pulled out in the refit and replaced by one containing the new phase cannon.)

No: again, we saw THREE emitters in action, and their position appeared to shift inconsistently from episode to episode.

So, to cut to the chase, you are suggesting that our heroes were moving three guns around the ship, in little carts or something?

Or are you suggesting that we ignore what we see and rather choose an interpretation of what we hear? Why not the opposite? After all, the actors are just fallible humans and may have flubbed their lines, or the writers flubbed their writing. Or perhaps there was a malfunction in the microphones. :rolleyes:

Time to close the TV set, then. Or put a set of blindfolds on. What's the point of looking at Star Trek if you don't watch it?

There simply aren't any VFX artists in the Star Trek universe (not in dialogue anyway). There are just starship engineers and starship crews. What we see is what we have.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So, to cut to the chase, you are suggesting that our heroes were moving three guns around the ship, in little carts or something?
No. I suggest the VFX artists were moving the guns around. This can be excused like every other effects error we excuse, including phase cannons shooting through their own ship to hit targets on the other side of it and starships colliding without actually touching each other.

Or are you suggesting that we ignore what we see and rather choose an interpretation of what we hear?
Have we not been doing that, more or less, for the past forty years?

Why not the opposite?
Because what we see isn't always accurate. For that matter, it isn't always MEANT to be accurate. And because the script is written by writers, not effects people, and sometimes the effects people misunderstand script cues.

What's the point of looking at Star Trek if you don't watch it?
Star Trek is about (in order of importance) compelling characters, society, possibilities, technology, and cool special effects. If the effects don't fit the story, you can either ignore them or reinterpret them. But the story still has to work the way it is written, and contradictions in the visual record can therefore by explained as "optical illusions," especially since they would never look the way they do in REALITY anyway.
 
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