NuUhura - uggh (shudder)

[Pauln6]

I don't really advocate sexual quotas overall. I'd prefer the character be written and then the sex of the character would be determined randomly.

Women and men are not interchangeable. Our gender is an integral part of our identity. You can't just randomly determine such an important character trait after the fact.

Most characters are just a brief set of ideas and many are just needed to full a plot point. Once gender has been determined the writers and actors can then bring that element into what we see on screen. However, Katee Sakhoff's Starbuck had more than enough of the original Starbuck to be recognisable as the same character concept. I would challenge the notion that most characters' gender could not be determined after the fact. For example, the Vulcan Science Acadamy Master - if that had been T'Pau, the character need not have been written any differently.

TOS era is slightly different because there is such a large imbalance already, which is why I'd limit the quota system to landing parties only. You have very few peple to pick and they tend to be high profile so equalising the numbers would be very effective.

As for ethnicity. With so many different ones to choose from, how you would show racial diversity on screen without using some kind of quota system? I can't think of any other effective system but I'm interested to hear what people think.

What's the point? I can understand why some people may think that quotas make sense in the real world, but what's the point of quotas in a television series? What does that weird bit of social engineering have to do with writing and producing an entertaining television show? Would Star Trek be a better show with a 10% mandatory quota of disabled people? And if the point is not to make a better show, what's the point? To make society better? What do you think the impact of Star Trek on ethnic representation and social justice is, exactly?

What's the point? If you can't see the point then I take it you like Star Trek for the action and explosions and not for the ideology it represents? Would I also be right in assuming that you are a caucasian male; the most over-represented ethnicity and gender in the franchise? Ask the astronaut Dr Mae Jemison the question if you want a genuine real world answer.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Most characters are just a brief set of ideas and many are just needed to full a plot point. Once gender has been determined the writers and actors can then bring that element into what we see on screen. However, Katee Sakhoff's Starbuck had more than enough of the original Starbuck to be recognisable as the same character concept. I would challenge the notion that most characters' gender could not be determined after the fact. For example, the Vulcan Science Acadamy Master - if that had been T'Pau, the character need not have been written any differently.

Alright, I agree. That being said, does it matter if stock characters are male or female?

What's the point? If you can't see the point then I take it you like Star Trek for the action and explosions and not for the ideology it represents? Would I also be right in assuming that you are a caucasian male; the most over-represented ethnicity and gender in the franchise? Ask the astronaut Dr Mae Jemison the question if you want a genuine real world answer.

Not only are your assumptions out of place, you did not answer any of my questions. It's nice that television producers think that dealing with issues such as equality and diversity is important, but what you're advocating is to introduce mandatory quotas for writers. So I ask again: to what purpose? What would be achieved by that?

 

[Pauln6]

Alright, I agree. That being said, does it matter if stock characters are male or female?

It matters if the franchise is based on the premise of equality. As I said previuosly, actresses should have an equal opportunity of being employed as actors. I find it hard to believe that in 40 years actors have been so consistently better than actresses that they have only been able to nail 33% of speaking roles. Clearly there is a problem with the writing and casting.

Not only are your assumptions out of place, you did not answer any of my questions. It's nice that television producers think that dealing with issues such as equality and diversity is important, but what you're advocating is to introduce mandatory quotas for writers. So I ask again: to what purpose? What would be achieved by that?

I apologise if I was being obtuse. Mae Jemison was inspired to become an astronaut by Uhura. Children get great enjoyment and can be inspired to greatness if they see a character with whom they can identify. Once again, if the franchise is based on the premise of equality it helps if they have a process to represent that.

My query about your own profile wasn't as facetious as it sounded. It's understandable that a caucasian male would find nothing wrong with the status quo because he has lots of characters with whom he can identify.

If you are in fact a Chinese woman, I'll find your perspective that much more interesting because you are happy with the status quo in spite of a lack of representation. The psychology of your position becomes far more interesting.

Ok so I answered your question, will you now answer mine? If not quotas, what other method could they use?

 

[JarodRussell]

Quotas are inherently stupid, everywhere. It doesn't remove the problem, it's only aesthetic surgery.

If you are in fact a Chinese woman, I'll find your perspective that much more interesting because you are happy with the status quo in spite of a lack of representation. The psychology of your position becomes far more interesting.

The Chinese woman has plenty of Chinese movies to watch, I guess. Chinese are very well represented in Chinese cinema.

 

[Pauln6]

If you are in fact a Chinese woman, I'll find your perspective that much more interesting because you are happy with the status quo in spite of a lack of representation. The psychology of your position becomes far more interesting.

The Chinese woman has plenty of Chinese movies to watch, I guess. Chinese are very well represented in Chinese cinema.

Lol. It may be true but it isn't exactly scoring a point for equality in Star Trek movies.

And...er... Akira anybody?

 

[JarodRussell]

If you are in fact a Chinese woman, I'll find your perspective that much more interesting because you are happy with the status quo in spite of a lack of representation. The psychology of your position becomes far more interesting.

The Chinese woman has plenty of Chinese movies to watch, I guess. Chinese are very well represented in Chinese cinema.

Lol. It may be true but it isn't exactly scoring a point for equality in Star Trek movies.

And...er... Akira anybody?

Well, first of all, a discussion about equality in the current Star Trek is pretty much pointless, since they decided to reboot TOS, which is from the 60s. That's the very first problem here. With DS9, we had a black Captain and a female First Officer, with Voyager, we had a female Captain, a black Spock, a female engineer, etc...

By rebooting TOS and sticking to it they made it impossible to keep Star Trek contemporary. The TOS crew didn't have strong females, no homosexuals, nothing. Chekov was bragging about soviet Russia, but these times are long gone. The problems the TOS characters represent are from the 60s. They should have actually created an entirely new crew to mirror the issues of the 2010s.

 

[Harvey]

The problem is that Paramount wanted to capitalize on nostalgia for the original series, not venture forth by creating a set of new faces with no brand recognition to confront contemporary problems. I'd welcome your approach, but it will never get a $150 million budget behind it.

However, keeping in mind that the next movie will stick to the big seven as its principals, there's no reason it can't have more racial and gender equality when it comes to other characters in the movie. The original Enterprise was supposed to have a crew breakdown of 33% women, 66% men (and I wouldn't be surprised if what was actually depicted put the percentage of women closer to 25%). There's no reason that ratio can't be made 50-50 in a contemporary movie.

 

[Pauln6]

All very valid points. We can probably sum up the sixties reboot issue like this:

1. Does NuUhura's role represent a step forward for her character - yes, she has been elevated to a supporting lead role alongside McCoy.

2. Does NuUhura's role represent a step forward for women in science fiction - no, she's still pretty much a secretary and most of her additional stuff relates to her as a love interest. TOS Uhura got to do some avant garde things when viewed in the sixties, NuUhura most likely won't get to do anything avant garde when viewed through the prism of our current history. She isn't likely to save either of the two leads, she isn't likely to outrank them etc.

Obviously, I'm not advocating a 50/50 sexual split among the main characters (although I am advocating the re-introduction of the remaining two recurring female characters). What I'm advocating is a 50% ratio (or possibly slightly more than 50%) among the supporting characters in speaking roles to redress the balance.

What we have in the movie instead is less than 50% among the main characters AND less than 50% among the support characters. A quota seems the simplest and most obvious way to deal with the deficiency in their casting process, although my preferred option would be to determins the sexes randomly. I want Kirk to be beaten up by a female Romulan!

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Clearly there is a problem with the writing and casting.

Yes, alright, I agree.

My query about your own profile wasn't as facetious as it sounded. It's understandable that a caucasian male would find nothing wrong with the status quo because he has lots of characters with whom he can identify.

I'm a white male, but I'm also someone who speaks French in a country where 70% of the population speaks German, so I know what it feels like to be part of a minority.

That's not the point, though. You inferred that "I find nothing wrong with the status quo" while nothing could be further from the truth. My point is that:

• Gender equality is a crucial real-life issue. In fact, it may be the most important issue in the western world, if not the whole world.
• Television series and other forms of entertainment have very little influence on that issue.
• Even if they had influence, enforcing gender and minority quotas would not help. In fact, it would probably be perceived as political correctness gone mad.

Ok so I answered your question, will you now answer mine? If not quotas, what other method could they use?

Their business is to tell entertaining stories. I think they should stick to that. If they want to tell entertaining stories about gender equality, well, that's even better, but I'm sure television producers are not delusional enough to think that they can change the world. American citizens reelected George W. Bush while Jed Bartlet was on TV, after all. Real life issues need real life solutions.

 

[Pauln6]

Their business is to tell entertaining stories. I think they should stick to that. If they want to tell entertaining stories about gender equality, well, that's even better, but I'm sure television producers are not delusional enough to think that they can change the world. American citizens reelected George W. Bush while Jed Bartlet was on TV, after all. Real life issues need real life solutions.

Some good points, which is why for me it is as much an issue about fairness for actresses as it is about the characters. I cannot see why a franchise with a more equal gender balance should be less entertaining though. Buffy, True Blood, NuBSG, and (to a lesser extent) Alias, all managed better gender balances without making an issue about gender in itself. It can be done, in a sci franchise it should be VERY easy to do, and in a sci fi franchise where the sexes are supposed to be equal it's a mystery why they aren't doing it anyway.

Don't underestimate the power of television (or movies). Advertisers spend a fortune because it DOES influence us. Decades of 'tough guy' smoker characters DEFINITELY encouraged young lads to smoke, even if the larger amount of pressure came from their peer group. In the end the real life and movie/TV images were reinforcing each other. Branding does have an impact. The problem may be that the people at the top are older and therefore may be behind the curve when it comes to societal trends.

NB. Bush may not have got in legitimately if some of the rumours about poor black voters are to be believed...

 

[UFO]

I’m not in favour of quotes as a matter of principle. They can be unfair to individuals and are very blunt instruments. Never the less, in terms of their possible efficacy:

Television series and other forms of entertainment have very little influence on that issue.

I’m not sure that’s an established fact. Seems like it would be a very powerful medium for getting people used to new ideas (see Pualn6’s comments on advertising). If it isn’t obviously doing that it could be that most TV shows aren’t really pushing envelopes too much.

Even if they had influence, enforcing gender and minority quotas would not help. In fact, it would probably be perceived as political correctness gone mad.

There might be a backlash but if the result was entertaining most other sins are forgiven/forgotten/ignored/not recognised.

... I'm sure television producers are not delusional enough to think that they can change the world.

I’d be happy if they did what they thought was right or important rather than just what they think will make a buck. Obviously there has to be some balance of course.

Some good points, which is why for me it is as much an issue about fairness for actresses as it is about the characters.

I find that a strange position. If there aren’t enough plumbing jobs (for example) then you just have to find something else to do. Just seems like putting the cart before the horse.

However I appreciate your underlying motivations (and those of The Mirrorball Man). Since the only reason there are two sexes in the first place is to promote genetic diversity and/or the speed at which that can occur, individual abilities should be the main criteria for selecting someone for a particular role or job.