NuFederation vs. Borg/Dominion?

[Cyke101]

^Agreed, so part of is that if anyone wants the Borg/Dominion in the movies, it's more about how to sell them as interesting, viable threats. One thing I sorely wish there was more of in Trek was some sort of "Evil Federation," which the Dominion fit to a T, and that could be a good selling point for them.

(I'm aware that the Typhon Pact exists in the novels, so I suppose to an extent they could fit this concept for the movies as well)

One obstacle that I can see though, is that in order to have an Evil Federation, you'd have to properly establish the actual Federation, too. I feel like the last movie provided only a couple name drops and not much more than that, but showing off the scale of the Federation (ie, those courtroom scenes from TVH and Khitomer in TUC) would greatly help.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I'd like to see the Borg again and their simplicity lends itself well to the shorter format of a movie. The Dominion is more a TV-style element: by the time you've gotten through explaining them, the movie is half over!

 

[Lord Garth]

There's a way around that.

Taking from the Batman playbook again: have two groups of villains. The Changelings and the Jem'Hardar with the Vorta. It's easy to establish the Vorta as being in charge of the Jem'Hadar in the space of one scene and that they work for the Dominion. Have the Changelings as Enemy #2 then, in the third act, twist the Batman approach to this hypothetical film's advantage and reveal that the Changelings are the Founders of the Dominion.

 

[Trekkie2]

These things will probably be reserved for future comics and highly unlikely they will ever be in future films

I don't know about that. The Narada was constructed with Borg technology. Whose to say.....

In the comics.

The DVD 2 disc edition contains information that the Narada was built using Borg technology.

 

[Set Harth]

The Borg didn't show interest in earth until they encountered the Ent-D and absorbed the knowledge from it's computers.

But why couldn't the same kind of thing happen earlier with a different ship?

 

[M.A.C.O.]

There's a way around that.

Taking from the Batman playbook again: have two groups of villains. The Changelings and the Jem'Hardar with the Vorta. It's easy to establish the Vorta as being in charge of the Jem'Hadar in the space of one scene and that they work for the Dominion. Have the Changelings as Enemy #2 then, in the third act, twist the Batman approach to this hypothetical film's advantage and reveal that the Changelings are the Founders of the Dominion.

The thing about Batman and Ra’s al Ghul was there was an established relationship in the comics going back to 1971. Ra’s training Bruce and bringing him into his world. Even attempting to set Bruce up with his daughter. Christopher Nolan took an established character relationship and made a great movie about it. The TOS crew never crossed paths with the Dominion. It would be too much of a stretch to fit all of the Dominion and the Founders complexity into one movie and have our heroes over come such a great threat.

The Borg didn't show interest in earth until they encountered the Ent-D and absorbed the knowledge from it's computers.

But why couldn't the same kind of thing happen earlier with a different ship?

Because it was Q who teleported the Ent-D to the Delta quadrant. Without doing something to that extent to the NuEnt, the Borg wouldn’t be able to make an appearance. I think it was in VOY that they stated the Alpha quadrant was only 13% explored in Kirk's days. Jumping from that to Delta would be foolish.

Also given the performance of the Star Trek ships against the future ship Narada, the Borg would slaughter the NuEnt.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't know about that. The Narada was constructed with Borg technology. Whose to say.....

In the comics.

The DVD 2 disc edition contains information that the Narada was built using Borg technology.

Mine doesn't

IIRC, the Bluray "Starships" feature says something vague, like "Massive upgrades after the destruction of Romulus are responsible for the ship's heavy weaponry and uniquely fearsome design"

 

[Set Harth]

Because it was Q who teleported the Ent-D to the Delta quadrant. Without doing something to that extent to the NuEnt, the Borg wouldn’t be able to make an appearance.

Maybe another ship goes through a wormhole or something. There are a multitude of possibilities. Maybe Trelane is involved.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

In the comics.

The DVD 2 disc edition contains information that the Narada was built using Borg technology.

Mine doesn't

IIRC, the Bluray "Starships" feature says something vague, like "Massive upgrades after the destruction of Romulus are responsible for the ship's heavy weaponry and uniquely fearsome design"

Yeah the "Starships" feature says the reverse engineered Borg tech is what grows the hull of the ship, and runs some of the computer functions since the Narada is milles long. I never did understand what all the platforms were for in the Narada (seen when nuSpock steals the Jellyfish).

Thing is about the Narada being upgraded after Romulus' destruction presents a continuity error. In the 09 movie Spock Prime states that Romulus was destroyed while he was in route to Vulcan. The "Starships" feature in the special features on the dvd and blu-ray says that the Narada was refitted after Romulus' destruction. However given Romulus and Vulcan's proximity, and traveling at high warp speeds (including the enhanced speed the Jellyfish is said to have). There wouldn't be enough time to refit a ship after the destruction of the planet, and have Spock show up immediately after the planet blows up and use the red matter. In the "Countdown" comic, Spock's arrival is what appears to be days after Romulus blew up. Then again the comic gets alot of things wrong in the context of the film. Like the Narada being a juggernaut ship with torpedos, disruptors, primary and secondary shields, a perfect cloak and living tentacles inside the ship :P. What a load of garbage. With all the contradictions about the Narada, I guess it is just "a simple mining ship".

 

[F. King Daniel]

According to the commentary track, JJ Abrams was fiddling around with the mind meld scene until just 2 weeks before the movie's premiere. The original version was probably more in line with Countdown (and Star Trek Online's) version of events.

Of course, the sequence being a mind meld, presented more like a truncated "Previously on..." than a video log, leaves lots and lots of wiggle room for differing interpretations of events.

(although, yes, the abilities of the Narada in the Countdown and Nero comics differ quite a bit from what was seen in the movie)

 

[Lord Garth]

The TOS crew never crossed paths with the Dominion.

Which is why I don't see it happening.

It would be too much of a stretch to fit all of the Dominion and the Founders complexity into one movie and have our heroes over come such a great threat.

If DS9 were ever rebooted for the big screen -- before anyone starts typing responses, I meant that hypothetically, I don't believe this will ever happen either -- I agree that it would be extremely foolish to have the Dominion taken down or defeated in one movie. In a different world, this would've been more the material for a trilogy or an ongoing series of movies.

 

[Set Harth]

Like the Narada being a juggernaut ship with torpedos, disruptors, primary and secondary shields, a perfect cloak and living tentacles inside the ship :P. What a load of garbage.

Nothing in the film proved or established that the Narada didn't have disruptors or a cloak, while the film did say that the Narada had shields.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Like the Narada being a juggernaut ship with torpedos, disruptors, primary and secondary shields, a perfect cloak and living tentacles inside the ship :P. What a load of garbage.

Nothing in the film proved or established that the Narada didn't have disruptors or a cloak, while the film did say that the Narada had shields.

That argument goes both ways. Since the Narada never once displayed using a cloak or disruptors in the movie. Also the special features on the ship says the Narada only has torpedoes and in the movie we only see the ship using torpedoes.

The shield argument is variable. When the Narada fires on the Kelvin. George Kirk has no problem flying the ship into the center of the Narada's big opening. Also Kirk and Spock beaming on the Narada before the drill is activated is a plot hole. Both might just be for the sake of plot. I believe Chekov confirms the existence of shields.

 

[F. King Daniel]

While Narada doesn't have a tradional cloak in the movie, I wonder if it had some kind of stealth technology - the Vulcans didn't seem to know there was a 5-mile long, 3-mile wide ship in orbit when they sent their destress signal.

 

[Set Harth]

That argument goes both ways.

Indeed it does. Which is why someone claiming "the Narada did not have a cloak" just because we didn't see one in the film is in the same position as someone claiming "the Narada did have a cloak", not a better position.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

That argument goes both ways.

Indeed it does. Which is why someone claiming "the Narada did not have a cloak" just because we didn't see one in the film is in the same position as someone claiming "the Narada did have a cloak", not a better position.

I guess I should've said the argument void, because the special features on the Narada on the dvd and bluray disc confirms the existence of transwarp drive, borg tech that grows the hull and torpedoes only. Also at the end of the movie when Nero says "FIRE EVERYTHING", the Narada fires only torpedoes. 27 in fact. So we can infer the Narada has the same number of torpedo bays as the Scimitar for Nemesis. The Narada specs in the "Countdown" comic are not the specs of the movie Narada. The comics are non-canon sources and were written by writers who only saw early drafts of the script.

Also to King Daniels point, when the Narada was using the drill on the Vulcan the ship is clearly visible from space, and from the sky where the audience saw it. The high energy pulse of the drill may have disrupted Vulcan's planetary sensors.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The high energy pulse of the drill may have disrupted Vulcan's planetary sensors.

Very likely, as the energy from the very same drill was also preventing Enterprise's transporters from working until Kirk and Sulu destroyed it.

 

[Robert_T_April]

I think TNG and Voyager took the steam out of the Borg and I certainly do not see them as a menacing enemy. I would be happy to see them kept out of NuTrek all together.

I couldn't agree more! The excitement is gone...