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Not All Main Characters Are Supposed to Be Likable

I swear I watch different shows than others. Saru, Culber, and others carried episodes.

I'm so sorry poor Michael was this horrible blight to viewing screens...

:shrug: apparently her shadow was long and I didn't watch those episodes of Saru and others handling things.
 
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While there were certainly episodes that strongly featured Saru and Culber, I'm not currently recalling an episode where I'd say they carried it.

But, like I said, my memory of DISCO's a bit fuzzy.
The movie night one in Season 3, Forget Me Not, felt very Saru and Culber driven.

Yes, Burnham is the main character and I know that causes consternation. But, others shine out too. But, I know I'm biased because Burnham is like most protagonists in shows I was watching in the 90s, like JAG.
 
The movie night one in Season 3, Forget Me Not, felt very Saru and Culber driven.

Yes, Burnham is the main character and I know that causes consternation. But, others shine out too. But, I know I'm biased because Burnham is like most protagonists in shows I was watching in the 90s, like JAG.
I'd agree that that's an episode that features Saru and Culber...

...but the episode also strongly features a plot focused on Burnham and Adira, so, at the risk of being pedantic and perhaps reading more into your original comment than you intended, I can't say that Saru and Culber carry the episode; just their plotline.

If you look at Jammer's review of the episode (which certainly isn't the be-all and end-all), available here: https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-dsc/s3/forget-me-not.php, he certainly seemed to feel the Adira plotline was far more worthy of comment.
 
I'd agree that that's an episode that features Saru and Culber...

...but the episode also strongly features a plot focused on Burnham and Adira, so, at the risk of being pedantic and perhaps reading more into your original comment than you intended, I can't say that Saru and Culber carry the episode; just their plotline.

If you look at Jammer's review of the episode (which certainly isn't the be-all and end-all), available here: https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-dsc/s3/forget-me-not.php, he certainly seemed to feel the Adira plotline was far more worthy of comment.
I personally felt like they carried it a lot more than they are given credit for.
 
I think the idea of the mycelial network and the tardigrades, along with Saru's character arc and backstory, were the highlights of Discovery. Stemets and Saru were my favorite characters in the series. I think, you could say, they carried the show for me, though that is purely subjective. I would have loved it if they were given more attention and screentime, and I would have appreciated the show a lot more in that case. Both Stemets and Saru had some episodes centered around each of them, I think. But most of the time they stayed in the background.
 
I think the idea of the mycelial network and the tardigrades, along with Saru's character arc and backstory, were the highlights of Discovery. Stemets and Saru were my favorite characters in the series. I think, you could say, they carried the show for me, though that is purely subjective. I would have loved it if they were given more attention and screentime, and I would have appreciated the show a lot more in that case. Both Stemets and Saru had some episodes centered around each of them, I think. But most of the time they stayed in the background.
I enjoyed Saru and the spire drive. I think Season 2 had the biggest missed opportunity with exploring the mycelial realm, and learn more about the beings inhabiting it.
 
Likability is subjective of course. When it comes to Discovery, Lorca was supposed to be unlikable, but I didn't hear many complaints about him from the fandom menace crowd, and if there were it was more complaining that the "woke social justice warriors" were making another white male character out to be the villain. But I don't recall hearing much frustration with the Lorca character for that character's actions. There might have been a little more guff given to Emperor Georgiou, but once again, I never heard too much about people not liking her character per se, but some reluctance to soften a "Space Hitler".

Burnham not being likable was not the intention of the writers. They were desperate to make the character so cool and likable that it did the opposite on the internet a lot, even though some of the spite she stirred up was dripping in racism and sexism. That being said, the writing for Burnham was clunky at times. Though if Burnham had been a white male I doubt there would've been any charges of said character being a "Space Jesus" or "Gary Stu". This crowd had little to say about Jack Crusher or the legion of white male Chosen One characters in entertainment stretching back decades by now, even some literally called "The Chosen One" like Anakin. However, when that praise and "lazy writing" is given to characters they aren't used to seeing getting it, and maybe don't believe deserve it, now it's a problem.

Unfortunately, Burnham was never going to be widely embraced. Nichelle Nichols's Uhura is beloved in part because she was a glorified side character, who was a secretary/phone operator, that allowed some in the audience to pat themselves on the back for their racial "tolerance" and "enlightenment". That had nothing to do with Nichols's performance, that was just the way the character was written/used, and she did the best she could to work within the constraints. Zoe Saldana and Celia Rose-Gooding were given more to work with, and they still could've-should've-been given more. Uhura basically as attractive wallpaper was fine for some.

Burnham being the focus, being the best, being the one that was wanted, that was needed to save the day like we've seen with James Bond, Ethan Hunt, Jack Bauer, Captain Kirk, and so forth was too much for some. Sure, the writing could've been better at times. If I had had my druthers, she wouldn't have been Spock's sister, I would've tamped down on various characters gushing about her and just having her actions do the talking and cut out a lot of the heart-to-heart crying scenes.

But Burnham was never a Mary Sue. The series opens with her mutinying against her captain and starting a war, and she spends a good deal of the first season clawing her way back. There were personal heartaches and setbacks along the way after too. And she got pushback when she made it to the future. There was no endless praise choir for her. She had to earn her place. Like I've said before, was all the writing good? No. Could've they have given her even more challenges, or had her fail even more than she did? Yes, but the same could be said for all other franchise leads. Jean-Luc's failures were a bone of contention on his series I would argue. I definitely didn't like the sad sack version we got of him in the first two seasons.

Did I love Burnham? No? But I thought that Sonequa Martin-Green did a good job with what she was given.
 
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Part of what made Burnham frustrating is the all coincidences and contrivances the writers came up with to keep her as the main player in events.

I mean, who is her most important mother? Amanda, who as Spock's parent has been important to the lore since 1967. Emperor Georgiou, the ruler of the Mirror Universe. Or is it Gabrielle, the genius who invented time travel, became the Red Angel, and worked to stop all life in the galaxy from being annihilated by Control.

Making Burnham the focus wasn't the problem, where they screwed up was failing to create a setting and story that naturally supported that focus.
 
Likability is subjective of course. When it comes to Discovery, Lorca was supposed to be unlikable, but I didn't hear many complaints about him from the fandom menace crowd, and if there were it was more complaining that the "woke social justice warriors" were making another white male character out to be the villain. But I don't recall hearing much frustration with the Lorca character for that character's actions. There might have been a little more guff given to Emperor Georgiou, but once again, I never heard too much about people not liking her character per se, but some reluctance to soften a "Space Hitler".

Burnham not being likable was not the intention of the writers. They were desperate to make the character so cool and likable that it did the opposite on the internet a lot, even though some of the spite she stirred up was dripping in racism and sexism. That being said, the writing for Burnham was clunky at times. Though if Burnham had been a white male I doubt there would've been any charges of said character being a "Space Jesus" or "Gary Stu". This crowd had little to say about Jack Crusher or the legion of white male Chosen One characters in entertainment stretching back decades by now, even some literally called "The Chosen One" like Anakin. However, when that praise and "lazy writing" is given to characters they aren't used to seeing getting it, and maybe don't believe deserve it, now it's a problem.

Unfortunately, Burnham was never going to be widely embraced. Nichelle Nichols's Uhura is beloved in part because she was a glorified side character, who was a secretary/phone operator, that allowed some in the audience to pat themselves on the back for their racial "tolerance" and "enlightenment". That had nothing to do with Nichols's performance, that was just the way the character was written/used, and she did the best she could to work within the constraints. Zoe Saldana and Celia Rose-Gooding were given more to work with, and they still could've-should've-been given more. Uhura basically as attractive wallpaper was fine for some.

Burnham being the focus, being the best, being the one that was wanted, that was needed to save the day like we've seen with James Bond, Ethan Hunt, Jack Bauer, Captain Kirk, and so forth was too much for some. Sure, the writing could've been better at times. If I had had my druthers, she wouldn't have been Spock's sister, I would've tamped down on various characters gushing about her and just having her actions do the talking and cut out a lot of the heart-to-heart crying scenes.

But Burnham was never a Mary Sue. The series opens with her mutinying against her captain and starting a war, and she spends a good deal of the first season clawing her way back. There were personal heartaches and setbacks along the way after too. And she got pushback when she made it to the future. There was no endless praise choir for her. She had to earn her place. Like I've said before, was all the writing good? No. Could've they have given her even more challenges, or had her fail even more than she did? Yes, but the same could be said for all other franchise leads. Jean-Luc's failures were a bone of contention on his series I would argue. I definitely didn't like the sad sack version we got of him in the first two seasons.

Did I love Burnham? No? But I thought that Sonequa Martin-Green did a good job with what she was given.
Man I do not think Burnham was to be likeable from the get go.
 
if Burnham had been a white male I doubt there would've been any charges of said character being a "Space Jesus" or "Gary Stu". This crowd had little to say about Jack Crusher or the legion of white male Chosen One characters in entertainment stretching back decades by now, even some literally called "The Chosen One" like Anakin.

Jack has been tagged as a "nepo baby" and "Gary Stu."
 
I hadn't heard that Jack Crusher was described in those particular ways, and I was speaking to what I had seen. I had my own gripes about him, but I never got a sense of that there was a widespread distaste for the character, especially on the level that has been expressed for Burnham.

I do think that Burnham was meant to be likable. I think the writers thought she was so cool, so badass, that the audience would fall in love with her, but they miscalculated the audience and the climate. Plus, saddling her with the Spock family backstory didn't help. The relative blank slate nature of many of the other leads, for the most part, allowed the audience to get to know them on their own, as opposed to being told they were super important right off. And if some people don't believe that certain other people are super important or special (in a good way) in real life then it makes it harder for them to imagine that in fiction.

The thing for me is that the Burnham character had a pretty good set up that didn't need the Spock connection or the glossing. I also think the rushed writing, the desire to grab the audience by the throat, instead of building the relationship with Burnham and Georgiou and that crew wasn't good. That crew had an easy chemistry, and I think could've won over doubters if we had spent more time with them.
 
I wanted to be clearer. I know there was some disquiet about Jack Crusher in the fandom, but just that I never saw it rise to the level of hate that Burnham got, where Discovery bashing, often with Burnham, at the heart of it, became a culture war pastime. Just about every series or movie gets some detractors, and Crusher's, the few I recall, felt more like the usual kind.

Crusher, despite being a Chosen One character, might not have lit the same pitchforks because he was a side character, whereas Burnham was the main character in a series that was designed to revolve around the main character more than any other series before it. But in terms of a character being "overpowered", I think Crusher is germane to the discussion. Arguably, Spock and Seven of Nine could be as well.

The Burnham hate might be akin to what Wesley got back in the day, but you throw in the -isms and other corrosiveness of the internet.

I've long thought that Burnham fit more of a "cool" scene-stealer side character than the main character and putting her in the lead role might also have caused some dissonance or heartburn.
 
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