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Not a Drill: SETI Is Investigating a Possible Extraterrestrial Signal From Deep Space

Evolution is not random, again with the creationist arguments.
Evolution is random, it is not preplanned. I believe I am more of a Darwinist than you'll ever be. And given that you don't know what exponential growth is, also more of a scientist.

Well, that's rather dependent on travel times and how much they want to do it. Relentless expansion isn't necessarily a policy an advanced civilisation would take on. Plus, we do not know the lifetime of such a civilisation.

It doesn't have to be relentless. Colonization rests on a minority of explorers the majority stay at home cozily.
 
Just a general question: what would be the economic benefits of deep space travel (to other stars)? So much of what we do on this planet is predicated by economics. Without FTL travel, a round trip to the closest star would be at least a decade. Doesn't sound like much of a deal when it would take at least a decade to see any benefit. Then there would be the fact that you would have to send massive ships to collect and bring back anything of value. None of that counts the infrastructure you'd have to put in place to retrieve whatever it is of value from the planet surface.

You'd never be able to send enough people to alleviate the population burden here on Earth, so that reason would be moot.
 
I don't see why FTL is implied nor necessary. FTL would give you time travel and paradoxes in any case.

Unless it's based on physical properties of the universe that we have yet to discover. It must be actually, since we have absolutely no idea how to achieve it with our current state of knowledge.
 
It's an insurance policy -- don't put all your eggs in one basket.
That's not an economic benefit. That's an EXTREMELY long-term and fairly vaguely defined biological imperative. A civilization that had its priorities straight enough to actually spend money on such a thing is a civilization smart enough not to need it in the first place (they'd just as easily fix all the things that are wrong with their own planet and not have to worry about it).
 
Unfortunately, we usually aren't that forward thinking. If it doesn't have some kind of immediate benefit, we toss it into the "to do" pile. :eek:
Cults would want to colonize their own place. There's no room left here for geographical expansion. ISIS, for example. Or we could find a better place and leave them to it.
 
Evolution is random, it is not preplanned.
Mutation is random. Evolution by natural selection is anything but random. Intelligence is by no means a guaranteed product of evolution but there is a minimum time span which would be needed for it to evolve, if it were going to.
This would add to the time needed for advanced civilisations to emerge. Furthermore, the early years of the universe were not compatible with life - you need stable planets, metals, heavy non metals, suitable stars. Again, a time constraint.
What I assume you were trying to say was that the event of abiogenesis was random on a given world, which we can't really say either as we do not understand the process.
 
Cults would want to colonize their own place. There's no room left here. ISIS, for example. Or we could find a better place and leave them to it.
The thing is, people like ISIS would rather slaughter a whole bunch of people and take their land than do something constructive like build space ships and live somewhere else. It's easier to destroy things than it is to create things, so people who lack the knowledge or resources to build something new prefer to just steal from others and destroy what they can't steal.
 
That's not an economic benefit. That's an EXTREMELY long-term and fairly vaguely defined biological imperative. A civilization that had its priorities straight enough to actually spend money on such a thing is a civilization smart enough not to need it in the first place (they'd just as easily fix all the things that are wrong with their own planet and not have to worry about it).
I said it was an insurance policy not an economic benefit -- nice straw man argument you've got there.
 
Mutation is random. Evolution by natural selection is anything but random.
No, in some circumstances it's actually VERY random. Not all gene mutations actually code for fitness traits, so some traits will be expressed more strongly over time just because they correlate with -- but do not actually contribute to -- reproductive fitness.

There's also the fact that genetics ALONE does not and cannot account for survival rates among populations, only gives a statistical "nudge" one way or the other; and yet, a population of rabbits that have a mutation that produces larger and healthier babies could easily be outpaced by a population that lacks that mutation but just happens to not live in the middle of the densest bobcat population on the planet. Or, on the other hand, if the less-productive rabbits live near a population of bobcats that all have a rare mutation that makes them find rabbits disgusting.

It's misleading to say that evolution is "not random." It mostly IS. It's fifty trillion coin tosses between different animals betting on which of them is going to live longer. It's partly statistical averages over a ridiculously long period of time, but there's also a huge amount of LUCK.
 
Unfortunately, we usually aren't that forward thinking. If it doesn't have some kind of immediate benefit, we toss it into the "to do" pile. :eek:
Sometimes small immediate benefits lead to long term benefits which nobody would have invested in at the beginning. Companies like SpaceX and Virgin rely on short term targets like the tourist trade, or on providing government contracts, while developing technologies that ultimately pave the way for exploration. I think this type of side benefit thinking is the only way capitalism will ever fund space exploration properly (arms races aside)
 
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Mutation is random. Evolution by natural selection is anything but random. Intelligence is by no means a guaranteed product of evolution
I agree with all of that, and the first two are generally accepted. I would add the caveat though that technologically induced mutations are not random in the same sense as spontaneous or natural mutations.

What I assume you were trying to say was that the event of abiogenesis was random on a given world, which we can't really say either as we do not understand the process.
I agree that we don't know enough to say whether abiogenesis is random on a given world.

but there is a minimum time span which would be needed for [intelligence] to evolve, if it were going to.
This would add to the time needed for advanced civilisations to emerge. Furthermore, the early years of the universe were not compatible with life - you need stable planets, metals, heavy non metals, suitable stars. Again, a time constraint.
However, with respect to these things, I don't believe that we know enough to tell. Since we don't understand either all the ways in which life might originate or all the forms it might have, we can't say whether life could originate under circumstances in which, for example, intelligence might appear very soon after the origin of life, relatively speaking, instead of the billions of years it took on Earth. Nor do we know what the elemental composition of life must be, and nor do we know all of the types of environments in which life could originate generally or in which intelligent life capable of interstellar radio communication could develop. Nor do we even know whether civilization involving the cooperation of many individuals is required to develop radio astronomy, by which I mean whether there are any counterexamples in existence. As of now, we know only that, in all probability, intelligent life capable of interstellar radio communication did not arise on Earth until the 20th century, and that for that to have happened certain things were necessary.
 
I agree with all of that, and the first two are generally accepted. I would add the caveat though that technologically induced mutations are not random in the same sense as spontaneous or natural mutations...

I am sorry but evolution is random in the sense that it is not pre-planned; That's why groups that are separated for a certain length of time cease to be mutually fertile. It's because of something called genetic drift with is completely unpredictable. As unpredictable as the beeps of a Geiger counter.
 
That's not an economic benefit. That's an EXTREMELY long-term and fairly vaguely defined biological imperative. A civilization that had its priorities straight enough to actually spend money on such a thing is a civilization smart enough not to need it in the first place (they'd just as easily fix all the things that are wrong with their own planet and not have to worry about it).
It's a lot easier and safer to fix your planet on a large scale (say, geoengineering) if you have a test planet where screwing up won't wipe out your species.

This is why Mars.


I am sorry but evolution is random in the sense that it is not pre-planned; That's why groups that are separated for a certain length of time cease to be mutually fertile. It's because of something called genetic drift with is completely unpredictable. As unpredictable as the beeps of a Geiger counter.
Geiger counters don't beep. Mostly they click. And if you know what you're sampling, you can predict how it will respond with a fair degree of accuracy.
 
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I am sorry but evolution is random in the sense that it is not pre-planned.
That's not what random means. Evolution certainly isn't preplanned but that doesn't mean it's random. It is the result of specific forcings genetic, epigenetic, environmental, etc. If it were random we would have a selection of creatures with randomly varying genetic codes and little relation to their environments. Instead we have a collection of species well adapted for their niches and able to adapt appropriately to changes in them. There is even recent work suggesting that the mutations and changes which underpin the process are not as random as we once thought, using genetic diversity in a population to increase the odds of making evolutionary leaps.
 
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