Non-Happy Endings

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I am afraid I'm on Janeway's side in this whole Tuvix thing.

Look at it from a strictly utilitarian perspective, really. Either one person dies (Tuvix) or two people die (Tuvok and Neelix). So why not try to decrease the amount of death that occurs?

 

[Captain_Amasov]

^ No, they did. Most of them were less...monumental than Tuvix, but there was a fair amount of, "We wouldn't do this if we were in the AQ, and we're not happy doing it now, but we're going to anyway because our job is to get home."

Scorpion Part 1 had a bit of that. Chakotay really didn't think helping the Borg was such a great idea, well he'd know after his encounter in "Unity"

 

[trevanian]

^ No, they did. Most of them were less...monumental than Tuvix, but there was a fair amount of, "We wouldn't do this if we were in the AQ, and we're not happy doing it now, but we're going to anyway because our job is to get home."

I was never a regular VOYAGER watcher, but the ones I did see that had some ethical issue like this SEEMED like it was just writers trying to shake things up by not trotting out the same alpha quad answers. That wouldn't be bad, except for the fact that I was thinking it was like watching a writer's meeting more than a STAR TREK episode, with characters as mouthpieces rather than as characters.

Perhaps I wouldn't have come to that conclusion if I'd watched more, but ... I really couldn't. The replicators must have worked really well, because the uniforms stayed clean and the ship still worked w/o a refit ... it was VOYAGER, I just couldn't watch.

 

[Anwar]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

 

[Yeoman Randi]

^ No, they did. Most of them were less...monumental than Tuvix, but there was a fair amount of, "We wouldn't do this if we were in the AQ, and we're not happy doing it now, but we're going to anyway because our job is to get home."

I was never a regular VOYAGER watcher, but the ones I did see that had some ethical issue like this SEEMED like it was just writers trying to shake things up by not trotting out the same alpha quad answers. That wouldn't be bad, except for the fact that I was thinking it was like watching a writer's meeting more than a STAR TREK episode, with characters as mouthpieces rather than as characters.

Perhaps I wouldn't have come to that conclusion if I'd watched more, but ... I really couldn't. The replicators must have worked really well, because the uniforms stayed clean and the ship still worked w/o a refit ... it was VOYAGER, I just couldn't watch.

I totally understand how you felt about it. But there really were some absolute GEMS mixed in with the poor or average episodes. Equinox was another episode that dealt with ethical dilemma. There were lots of them, you just have to dig through the dreck to find them.

 

[trevanian]

^ No, they did. Most of them were less...monumental than Tuvix, but there was a fair amount of, "We wouldn't do this if we were in the AQ, and we're not happy doing it now, but we're going to anyway because our job is to get home."

I was never a regular VOYAGER watcher, but the ones I did see that had some ethical issue like this SEEMED like it was just writers trying to shake things up by not trotting out the same alpha quad answers. That wouldn't be bad, except for the fact that I was thinking it was like watching a writer's meeting more than a STAR TREK episode, with characters as mouthpieces rather than as characters.

Perhaps I wouldn't have come to that conclusion if I'd watched more, but ... I really couldn't. The replicators must have worked really well, because the uniforms stayed clean and the ship still worked w/o a refit ... it was VOYAGER, I just couldn't watch.

I totally understand how you felt about it. But there really were some absolute GEMS mixed in with the poor or average episodes. Equinox was another episode that dealt with ethical dilemma. There were lots of them, you just have to dig through the dreck to find them.

I've seen half of EQUINOX and really liked it (shoot, I must have, I remember the title!) That really did seem about right in terms of tone and 'tude.

 

[trevanian]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

Stuff breaks down. Magic Box tech is for shit, dramatically speaking. Hell, even Shatner went on about how you need to be able to run out of bullets (so to speak) on the phaser (hence the clip in TFF) ... The ship ought to have gotten more messed up, because you don't make the hull perfect again before you get going. You also don't waste energy on holoprograms when food is a problem (which it was in some eps I saw.) Cart before the horse.

You don't always get what you want or what you need, that is what creates jeopardy. The ship should have reflected the crew's wear and exhaustion (except they seemed pretty much the same, which also proves my point about them not doing it right.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You don't always get what you want or what you need, that is what creates jeopardy.

That and Merv Griffin.

 

[Anwar]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

Stuff breaks down. Magic Box tech is for shit, dramatically speaking. Hell, even Shatner went on about how you need to be able to run out of bullets (so to speak) on the phaser (hence the clip in TFF) ... The ship ought to have gotten more messed up, because you don't make the hull perfect again before you get going. You also don't waste energy on holoprograms when food is a problem (which it was in some eps I saw.) Cart before the horse.

You don't always get what you want or what you need, that is what creates jeopardy. The ship should have reflected the crew's wear and exhaustion (except they seemed pretty much the same, which also proves my point about them not doing it right.)

See, that's part of the problem. People kept wanting VOY to be some miserable "Darker and edgier" work, they wanted the crew to all fall to pieces and spend the entire series hating and wanting to murder each other. I don't think it ever entered their minds that maybe people DON'T fall apart at the first problem and can keep it together.

 

[JustKate]

^ And that trouble can sometimes bring people together? I agree.

I wouldn't have minded if it took them longer to be brought together, though!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

Indeed.

As long as Voyager had friendly aliens to trade with, they could sustain themselves pretty much indefinitely. The only reason the ship was so wrecked in "Year of Hell" was that the ship was under constant, unrelenting attack by a single enemy, and there was no one to trade with (and no time to do so).

Almost every nitpick can be easily rationalized. Torpedoes? Can be replenished through trade. Energy (for holodeck, replicators, etc.)? Ditto. Shuttlecraft? We've seen the crew build ships like the Delta Flyer from scratch, so it would be relatively easy to rebuild existing shuttles from the wreckage of the old.

 

[trevanian]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

Stuff breaks down. Magic Box tech is for shit, dramatically speaking. Hell, even Shatner went on about how you need to be able to run out of bullets (so to speak) on the phaser (hence the clip in TFF) ... The ship ought to have gotten more messed up, because you don't make the hull perfect again before you get going. You also don't waste energy on holoprograms when food is a problem (which it was in some eps I saw.) Cart before the horse.

You don't always get what you want or what you need, that is what creates jeopardy. The ship should have reflected the crew's wear and exhaustion (except they seemed pretty much the same, which also proves my point about them not doing it right.)

See, that's part of the problem. People kept wanting VOY to be some miserable "Darker and edgier" work, they wanted the crew to all fall to pieces and spend the entire series hating and wanting to murder each other.

NO. I just didn't want it to be stupid.

DON'T set up the maquis thing only to flush it away.

Outside of Picardo, the most interesting people on VOYAGERs I saw or tried to see were the guest stars. And they were NOT what the show was about.

 

[trevanian]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

Indeed.

As long as Voyager had friendly aliens to trade with, they could sustain themselves pretty much indefinitely. The only reason the ship was so wrecked in "Year of Hell" was that the ship was under constant, unrelenting attack by a single enemy, and there was no one to trade with (and no time to do so).

Almost every nitpick can be easily rationalized. Torpedoes? Can be replenished through trade. Energy (for holodeck, replicators, etc.)? Ditto. Shuttlecraft? We've seen the crew build ships like the Delta Flyer from scratch, so it would be relatively easy to rebuild existing shuttles from the wreckage of the old.

If you want to consider these objections to be nitpicks, then no argument will sustain. As long as you aren't seeing them as huge impediments to drama ... you're not seeing through the same 'scope I am (or else you've forgotten to take the lens cap off.)

 

[Green Shirt]

Even though it is considered a crappy and bewildering episode, I thought the "What of Lazarus?" ending in The Alternative Factor was a downer. Had to suck to have that fate.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Even though it is considered a crappy and bewildering episode, I thought the "What of Lazarus?" ending in The Alternative Factor was a downer. Had to suck to have that fate.

Maybe not:

Spoiler: SNW

A sequel story, I think it appeared in a volume of Strange New Worlds, had both Lazaruses - Lazari? - being freed, and each deposited on their respective universes' versions of Bajor.

 

[Cyke101]

They could draw all the power they needed from stars and space itself, they had access to other aliens around the DQ for stuff. Why WOULD it be all junked out?

Stuff breaks down. Magic Box tech is for shit, dramatically speaking. Hell, even Shatner went on about how you need to be able to run out of bullets (so to speak) on the phaser (hence the clip in TFF) ... The ship ought to have gotten more messed up, because you don't make the hull perfect again before you get going. You also don't waste energy on holoprograms when food is a problem (which it was in some eps I saw.) Cart before the horse.

You don't always get what you want or what you need, that is what creates jeopardy. The ship should have reflected the crew's wear and exhaustion (except they seemed pretty much the same, which also proves my point about them not doing it right.)

See, that's part of the problem. People kept wanting VOY to be some miserable "Darker and edgier" work, they wanted the crew to all fall to pieces and spend the entire series hating and wanting to murder each other. I don't think it ever entered their minds that maybe people DON'T fall apart at the first problem and can keep it together.

Except it was one of the primary points of the original pitch. Not that the show would be grim and gritty, but that a ship with less resources than the Hotel Enterprise without a Starbase pit stop or the support of the fleet would be stranded. In all the promotional material, publicity and the show's creators repeatedly stated that part of the premise was that we would see them be hurting for supplies and repairs and other true frontier difficulties, very little of which was realized. If the show was to be dark, that would only be because of failing power systems, and not because of the characters themselves.

Heck, the closest they got to sticking to that premise was Course Oblivion, an episode discussed at length here. And that was with a fake crew. Giving Voyager magic technology pretty much removes the narrative need of (and goal of reaching) Starfleet and makes you wonder just what Starfleet would be needed for in the first place, if each ship was a self-sufficient dynamo. There's no difference between a ship lost and a ship found.

Also, I'd stop exaggerating about Trekkies wanting Voyager crew to kill each other, too. Nobody wants that. What they want is actual organic and natural characterization. That's a huge difference from "hating and wanting to murder each other." B'lanna loves Paris? Great, that was years in the making, and each milestone in that development came from the kind of struggle that only comes with dwindling supplies and lack of resources. That was logical and organic. Seven + Chakotay? Mmmm, not so much.

 

[Anwar]

NO. I just didn't want it to be stupid.

Good thing it wasn't.

DON'T set up the maquis thing only to flush it away.

The Maquis thing was a dumb idea to begin with. If they wanted the crews to be opposed then they should have made them Cardassians or Romulans since those guys have GENUINE differences with the Feds.

Also, I'd stop exaggerating about Trekkies wanting Voyager crew to kill each other, too. Nobody wants that.

Dude, the number one "how I'd make this different" claim perpetually made is "Make it exactly like Equinox". In other words, make the entire crew, without exception, miserable worthless people who have it out for each other the entire series (stupid) and have them going around committing horrible acts without feeling the teeniest sense of remorse and in the end for them to get away with it all because "it's better drama".

 

[trevanian]

NO. I just didn't want it to be stupid.

Good thing it wasn't.

DON'T set up the maquis thing only to flush it away.

The Maquis thing was a dumb idea to begin with. If they wanted the crews to be opposed then they should have made them Cardassians or Romulans since those guys have GENUINE differences with the Feds.

That third quote you responded to wasn't mine, though it was well-written, unlike your response. As to your responses to my comments ...

Maquis is the only outstanding idea I saw in ModernTrek ... there were plenty of things well-executed on DS9 (the only 24thCen stuff I like is there), but maquis was a fantastic concept that was largely squandered, but at least ds9 got some good stuff out of it with that Cal guy and especially with Eddington.

The fact VOY chose not to exploit this -- the very thing that was set up specifically for it on both TNG and DS9 -- is further proof that the show didn't stay true to its premises and have integrity (things the other poster pointed out in a very clear and effective way.)

Using Cardassians or Romulans would have been too easy; maquis is a 'grey' area, not a B&W one, and THAT is why they are interesting, because they have plenty of realworld comparisons in reallife situations -- they are RELEVANT. But if you like your antagonists to just be token bad guys, then yeah, maquis is not the way to go for you, since they're usually characters with a point of view and subtext.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

maquis is a 'grey' area, not a B&W one, and THAT is why they are interesting, because they have plenty of realworld comparisons in reallife situations -- they are RELEVANT. But if you like your antagonists to just be token bad guys, then yeah, maquis is not the way to go for you, since they're usually characters with a point of view and subtext.

That's one of the reasons I hated the Maquis, yes. I don't believe in ambiguity or grey areas. My worldview *is* very B&W, and I like it that way. Besides, the Maquis were just immature jerks IMHO. Warmed-over revolutionaries with an ego trip.

 

[Anwar]

That third quote you responded to wasn't mine, though it was well-written, unlike your response. As to your responses to my comments ...

Maquis is the only outstanding idea I saw in ModernTrek ... there were plenty of things well-executed on DS9 (the only 24thCen stuff I like is there), but maquis was a fantastic concept that was largely squandered, but at least ds9 got some good stuff out of it with that Cal guy and especially with Eddington.

The fact VOY chose not to exploit this -- the very thing that was set up specifically for it on both TNG and DS9 -- is further proof that the show didn't stay true to its premises and have integrity (things the other poster pointed out in a very clear and effective way.)

Using Cardassians or Romulans would have been too easy; maquis is a 'grey' area, not a B&W one, and THAT is why they are interesting, because they have plenty of realworld comparisons in reallife situations -- they are RELEVANT. But if you like your antagonists to just be token bad guys, then yeah, maquis is not the way to go for you, since they're usually characters with a point of view and subtext.

Main difference between you and me, I don't really worship TOS all that much (heck, I don't even like Kirk that much) so I liked a lot more about the 24th Century stuff than just DS9 (which I like less than the others). I liked Cal but Eddington just came off as one of those random "I hate the government" types with flimsy reasoning. VOY was explicitly ordered by the network to drop the Maquis thing, despite the Producers' objections.

Using the Cardassians or Romulans would have made more sense because they actually have political and ideological differences with the Feds and having them on VOY as protagonists would have given them a chance to voice their own ideals from a sympathetic viewpoint and possibly validate them as more than just the Fed's enemies. But no, they droppe dthat for people who didn't have any real differences with the Feds.