Non-fans of TWoK....

[BillJ]

Bringing up Valeris reminds me of Saavik, which reminds me of another retarded point about TWOK. Has anyone in the 20 years since TWOK came out realized that Saavik is a MALE Vulcan name? I mean, it goes without saying that Bennett didn't know squat about Star Trek and probably just had somebody modify Spock's name (because we all know that Spock is every Vulcan, right?) and slap it on the character. But female Vulcan names are supposed to have the "T" prefix, like T'Pring or T'Pau (and if you want to go non-canon, T'Pol), whereas only the men have names that start with "S."

There is no way you thought about this before you posted:

1. The only thing a mainstream audience cares about is that the characters name is the same at the beginning, the middle and the end. They like a nice straight line through the film.

2. No where on screen is it established that "T' " is the prefix for a bonded female.

3. Vulcan is a planet with six billion people. I'm sure naming conventions vary from city to city, province to province and continent to continent.

 

[Skywalker]

I do like TWOK, but I will admit that the last time I watched it I was surprisingly...bored. Underwhelmed. It was weird. Maybe my tastes have changed, or maybe I just started to notice the (sometimes major) flaws the movie has.

 

[Maurice]

^^ In all candor what TMP DE really needs is something that can't be put in without a time machine to transport us back to the late '70s. It needs more character and substance story wise. No degree of editing can inject that.

Exactly the point I was making in previous posts, but TOS Purist is convinced he knows why others don't like the film, and doesn't reply when you call him on it.

 

[TOS Purist]

^^ In all candor what TMP DE really needs is something that can't be put in without a time machine to transport us back to the late '70s. It needs more character and substance story wise. No degree of editing can inject that.

But would you feel safe in saying that I made at least a tiny smidgen of difference?

 

[Psion]

Sorry, TOS Purist, you might have tightened it up, but this excises stuff that I like. You've ruined the opening credits theme, gutted the Klingon battle with V'Ger, aborted charming bits of character interaction (you did that to this movie?), couldn't resist going after the tour of the Enterprise, dropped in TV show sounds sporadically and inconsistently ....

No, lad, I dinna like it, not one damn bit.

The flaws of this movie have little to do with pacing. Plenty of extraordinary films tell a patient tale, and some of them are even science fiction films. This movie, despite its imperfections, remains better as it was before your edits, and possibly even before the Director's Edition's edits, too.

 

[TOS Purist]

Thank you for your input! I really do appreciate it.

Since so many people lamented the reduction of the Klingon sequence, I'm going to try editing that to fit with the faster pace of the rest of the film. Of course people will probably hate me for that, too, but...whatever.

 

[Psion]

I'm glad you took that well, because it certainly wasn't my intention to insult you or your editing skills. I simply didn't like your changes.

 

[TOS Purist]

And that's fine; I appreciate the fact that you were able to critique my edit while staying objective and not getting personal.

Although I respectfully disagree that pacing wasn't TMP's main problem; I mean, all those critics calling it the "Slow-Motion Picture" and hating it for just that reason had to have SOMETHING to make them think so, eh? Pacing issues are the first thing anybody mentions when they're talking about TMP, either in a positive or negative review - they always bring up the slow pacing and how horrible it is.

At least that's what I've experienced.

 

[Warped9]

I can't imagine tightening up the TMP DE anymore than it's done already without starting to lose things I like about it.

 

[David A. Sobral]

Some of us just don't like it, David. That's just the way it goes. You think it's the best, lots of people think it's the best, but I don't. At all. (I won't summarize my reasons again since I've already done so in this thread.) It's not nearly as cut-and-dried as you seem to think it is.

When TWOK came out, I was incredibly disappointed, whereas you were "blown away." That summarizes the difference in our points of view right there. And no amount of explanation is going to change that, really. How could it?

I'm assuming, then, that you & I are about the same age? When I said TWOK was "The Best" film in the series, I was speaking of the general public & fan-based reaction. TSFS is my favorite but, it's "too Trekkie" for the mass public, whereas TVH was specifically made with the public in mind. It's like saying FC was the best TNG flick but, my PERSONAL favorite was "Generations" (which is the case)...a greatly flawed film but, it had the two Captains meeting as well as a nice villainous turn by Malcolm McDowall, long one of my favorite actors.

You can't honestly be implying (assuming we're the same age) that they didn't make a "good" film until TSFS, are you?

 

[JustKate]

I'm assuming, then, that you & I are about the same age? When I said TWOK was "The Best" film in the series, I was speaking of the general public & fan-based reaction. TSFS is my favorite but, it's "too Trekkie" for the mass public, whereas TVH was specifically made with the public in mind. It's like saying FC was the best TNG flick but, my PERSONAL favorite was "Generations" (which is the case)...a greatly flawed film but, it had the two Captains meeting as well as a nice villainous turn by Malcolm McDowall, long one of my favorite actors.

You can't honestly be implying (assuming we're the same age) that they didn't make a "good" film until TSFS, are you?

Hmmm...actually, I don't think I "implied" a thing. Certainly I didn't intend to. What I intended to say, I said straight out, and that was simply that I personally don't like TWOK, and I'm not alone in that dislike. And since I said it flat out, that doesn't count as an implication.

While I understand in theory what you mean by "When I said TWOK was 'The Best' film in the series, I was speaking of the general public & fan-based reaction," I am not sure I understand your point entirely. For one thing, "most popular" doesn't equal "the best." Nor does it mean "the worst," BTW.

But anyway, I'm not sure that even by your standard, TWOK is "the best" or the most popular. It is considered the best by most Trek fans, I agree...but I thought "The Voyage Home" was actually more popular with the general public? Up until the latest movie, I thought it had the highest box office? That's what I've read, both here and elsewhere.

I personally think that nobody has yet made a truly "good" Trek film. There are several that I've enjoyed, of course, and most have some or many good things about them, but I think they are all (so far) too flawed or too lightweight to really count as "good" by any unbiased, non-scifi, non-Trekkie standard.

Generations is probably my favorite as well - for exactly the reasons you list. I wouldn't call it a truly good movie, though. I like it in spite of its flaws.

 

[Chrisisall]

I personally think that nobody has yet made a truly "good" Trek film. There are several that I've enjoyed, of course, and most have some or many good things about them, but I think they are all (so far) too flawed or too lightweight to really count as "good" by any unbiased, non-scifi, non-Trekkie standard.

 

[David A. Sobral]

I'm assuming, then, that you & I are about the same age? When I said TWOK was "The Best" film in the series, I was speaking of the general public & fan-based reaction. TSFS is my favorite but, it's "too Trekkie" for the mass public, whereas TVH was specifically made with the public in mind. It's like saying FC was the best TNG flick but, my PERSONAL favorite was "Generations" (which is the case)...a greatly flawed film but, it had the two Captains meeting as well as a nice villainous turn by Malcolm McDowall, long one of my favorite actors.

You can't honestly be implying (assuming we're the same age) that they didn't make a "good" film until TSFS, are you?

Hmmm...actually, I don't think I "implied" a thing. Certainly I didn't intend to. What I intended to say, I said straight out, and that was simply that I personally don't like TWOK, and I'm not alone in that dislike. And since I said it flat out, that doesn't count as an implication.

While I understand in theory what you mean by "When I said TWOK was 'The Best' film in the series, I was speaking of the general public & fan-based reaction," I am not sure I understand your point entirely. For one thing, "most popular" doesn't equal "the best." Nor does it mean "the worst," BTW.

But anyway, I'm not sure that even by your standard, TWOK is "the best" or the most popular. It is considered the best by most Trek fans, I agree...but I thought "The Voyage Home" was actually more popular with the general public? Up until the latest movie, I thought it had the highest box office? That's what I've read, both here and elsewhere.

I personally think that nobody has yet made a truly "good" Trek film. There are several that I've enjoyed, of course, and most have some or many good things about them, but I think they are all (so far) too flawed or too lightweight to really count as "good" by any unbiased, non-scifi, non-Trekkie standard.

Generations is probably my favorite as well - for exactly the reasons you list. I wouldn't call it a truly good movie, though. I like it in spite of its flaws.

Good! We're narrowing the playing field here. What you said about "Generations" hits right on the mark with regards to public reaction to TWOK & TVH. While TVH may be the most successful STAR TREK film (from a dollars & sense POV), it's not what I would call "the best" one (that would be TSFS...just my opinion) because it was too "commercial". A good film to be sure, but not one of the better ones, from a STAR TREK POV. That movie catered to the lowest common denominator (sic?) & there's nothing wrong with that (as long as the story is decent). It's like saying "Generations" was your favorite but, FC was "the best" (which, out of the TNG films, it was...again, my opinion).

If I recall, the MOST successful STAR TREK film to date (not counting #11) was "STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT". Personally, I never understood how they calculated that. When TVH came out in 1986, ticket prices were about $4.50. When FC came out 10 years later, the price was doubled as was the films' budget. Do they take inflation into account when they do this math? Anyone know?

As far as a "truly good Trek film", how about TSFS? That was more like a TV episode than ANY of the other movies, no? Isn't that what we want? A good-looking TV episode that's 90 minutes long?

 

[TOS Purist]

Personally, I never understood how they calculated that. When TVH came out in 1986, ticket prices were about $4.50. When FC came out 10 years later, the price was doubled as was the films' budget. Do they take inflation into account when they do this math?

Yes, most reliable sources (like official film registries) take that into account when factoring how much money a film made relative to another.

 

[RyuRoots]

As far as a "truly good Trek film", how about TSFS? That was more like a TV episode than ANY of the other movies, no? Isn't that what we want? A good-looking TV episode that's 90 minutes long?

I can only speak for myself, but...hell no I don't want a good-looking longer TV episode! I want a MOVIE. It's why I don't care for TSFS much (even if it's better than TMP and TWOK to me) and part (only a small part since it has other flaws) of why I can't sit through Insurrection anymore. I want a film that feels like a film and does something big while still retaining the spirit of the show.

 

[David A. Sobral]

As far as a "truly good Trek film", how about TSFS? That was more like a TV episode than ANY of the other movies, no? Isn't that what we want? A good-looking TV episode that's 90 minutes long?

I can only speak for myself, but...hell no I don't want a good-looking longer TV episode! I want a MOVIE. It's why I don't care for TSFS much (even if it's better than TMP and TWOK to me) and part (only a small part since it has other flaws) of why I can't sit through Insurrection anymore. I want a film that feels like a film and does something big while still retaining the spirit of the show.

Well, based on that criteria, the only STAR TREK films that deserve to be called "motion pictures" are TMP, TUC & FC...although as much as everyone says they hate it, I'll throw in "Nemesis" for good measure as well as the newest film. All the rest are just "big episodes"...

 

[Warped9]

^^ Trek XI was a movie? I could have sworn it was stale cat barf.

 

[Chrisisall]

^^ Trek XI was a movie? I could have sworn it was stale cat barf.

I wouldn't say "stale."


I liked it, I'll buy it- that's good enough for me.

 

[Maurice]

^^ Trek XI was a movie? I could have sworn it was stale cat barf.

Since when does cat barf, stale or otherwise, run at 24 frames per second? Silly...

 

[RyuRoots]

As far as a "truly good Trek film", how about TSFS? That was more like a TV episode than ANY of the other movies, no? Isn't that what we want? A good-looking TV episode that's 90 minutes long?

I can only speak for myself, but...hell no I don't want a good-looking longer TV episode! I want a MOVIE. It's why I don't care for TSFS much (even if it's better than TMP and TWOK to me) and part (only a small part since it has other flaws) of why I can't sit through Insurrection anymore. I want a film that feels like a film and does something big while still retaining the spirit of the show.

Well, based on that criteria, the only STAR TREK films that deserve to be called "motion pictures" are TMP, TUC & FC...although as much as everyone says they hate it, I'll throw in "Nemesis" for good measure as well as the newest film. All the rest are just "big episodes"...

I'd say GEN was good in that regard, but otherwise I'd agree with that assessment. Particularly so in the case of III, V, and IX.

^^ Trek XI was a movie? I could have sworn it was stale cat barf.

Yeah, yeah. Blue warp nacelles, canon violation, etc.