Non-fans of TWoK....

[Pauln6]

That's an interesting idea about Star Wars III...since it mostly seems like the ending you'd like to see a modified version of, I could try whipping up an edited ending sequence. But you make some interesting points; it would have been cooler to NOT hear Yoda talk about going to Dagobah - better to wonder "What happened to him?" and then finally find out in "The Empire Strikes Back." That would also ensure that whatever Yoda says about his past isn't redundant or simply a summary of the plotlines of the other films. Interesting idea!

It's not quite that simple because Palpatine calls him Vader in a number of scenes unfortunately but yeah, most of the last half an hour is spent telling us stuff we really don't need to know. I was actually quite cheesed off when they killed Padme for no reason. She was tougher than that. If an edited version came out I'd have hypnotherapy to remove that whole scene from my memory...

 

[TOS Purist]

Exactly!! "She died because she didn't have the will to live?" Please, she had two newborn babies to give her something to live for! Not to mention the Episode I version of Padme had enough balls to give her the will to live through pretty much anything! I don't think she would have become that attached to whiny Anakin that his turn to the Dark Side would have literally killed her.

 

[Pauln6]

Exactly!! "She died because she didn't have the will to live?" Please, she had two newborn babies to give her something to live for! Not to mention the Episode I version of Padme had enough balls to give her the will to live through pretty much anything! I don't think she would have become that attached to whiny Anakin that his turn to the Dark Side would have literally killed her.

I was also a bit disappointed that the make-up on the Emperor was so hokey. The actor is twenty years older and yet they have to plaster his face with more latex than he had on in Jedi? Odd decision.

Fun film but both TWOK and TMP were both better movies.

 

[TOS Purist]

I didn't like Palpatine's makeup, either. I thought that the folds of his face looked more rounded and bloated, somehow, as opposed to the "sharper" look of his face in ROTJ. But we all know that Lucas wasn't really concerned with quality...merely the obscene amounts of money he knew would roll in no matter what he released in theatres. Kind of the same thinking a certain man called J.J. used recently...

Funny how this has turned into a Star Wars discussion...on a Star Trek forum!! Oh, the horror!

 

[Pauln6]

Funny how this has turned into a Star Wars discussion...on a Star Trek forum!! Oh, the horror!

The power of the Dark Side. Have we seen the President of the Federation recently?

 

[Maurice]

I'm of the opinion that it'll never be realllllly good. There's just too many fundamental flaws.

Fair enough...but I'm hoping that maybe, juuuust maybe, I can change your opinion after you see my work.

What you're not understanding is that I see the fundamental flaws and omissions with the storytelling. You can't edit your way down to what's not there. All you can do is improve the pacing and possibly the impact of what is there.

And,, to be blunt, it's easy to whack out things you think are dead air, but there's a rhythm to good film editing. Can you make it flow? That's the tougher challenge.

You mentioned a sample?

 

[TOS Purist]

What you're not understanding is that I see the fundamental flaws and omissions with the storytelling. You can't edit your way down to what's not there. All you can do is improve the pacing and possibly the impact of what is there.

The reason the storytelling never appealed to you was because of the pacing. The viewer's interest wanes as each shot drags on for longer than it should, and as a result instead of remembering how much you liked the scene, or how much it interested you as a viewer, the last thing you remember was the "bad taste" of boredom. That's what I meant by "there's actually a good story buried underneath the useless footage." Of course we won't actually know for sure until you see the completed project, which I sincerely hope you'll watch.

And to be blunt, it's easy to whack out things you think are dead air, but there's a rhythm to good film editing. Can you make it flow?

Well, there's a reason I'm currently enrolled in film courses at Penn State.

As for the [ROUGH] sample, here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-O4zUYGnRM
Please watch it in High Quality if your connection permits, and keep in mind that it's a very rough workprint. But you should see how the scene is tightened up and actually made exciting with the removal of redundant technobabble (I can't tell you how many times and how many ways they said "We can't maneuver") and a better action/reaction "flow" ("Fire torpedoes!" is directly followed by the torpedoes firing...not one minute of Chekov slowly reaching for the control, repeating the command, and FINALLY pressing the button). I also added some TOS music to spice it up, and you'll notice the other TOS sound effects (the doors, warp drive, etc) which help to really give it that TOS feel despite the differences in the way it looks.

I finished publishing the project later last night, and I should be able to post it tonight!

 

[Maurice]

The reason the storytelling never appealed to you was because of the pacing.

You might as well stop right there because you're

a) assuming the storytelling doesn't appeal to me, and...
b) you're being arrogantly presumptuous in thinking you can tell me what I think and why. Shame on you.​

I have comments on your edit, but I'm not going to waste my time sharing them if you're going to maintain the attitude you've displayed both here and in your description of your YouTube clip.

 

[TOS Purist]

Well, I never "assumed" the storytelling never appealed to you...you clearly said that it didn't appeal to you. I was only repeating what you said...

And I don't know what "attitude" you're talking about. I invite you to take the time to check out my recently-uploaded completed edit here, as friends:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F67wfn66s7A

 

[Pauln6]

Kudos! I'll check it out later but if you've edited out Janice, it's war.

 

[TOS Purist]

Kudos! I'll check it out later but if you've edited out Janice, it's war.

Oh, she's still in there...she's visible in the "crew briefing" scene of the film.

And thanks for checking it out!

 

[Maurice]

Well, I never "assumed" the storytelling never appealed to you...you clearly said that it didn't appeal to you.

You, sir, are paraphrasing. What I said was:

What you're not understanding is that I see the fundamental flaws and omissions with the storytelling.

And as the above indicated, I never said it didn't appeal to me, I said I see the flaws. Those flaws are the reason no mere edit can make the film "really good."

And I don't know what "attitude" you're talking about.

It's the attitude that lets you presume you can tell me why I think something. As in:

The reason the storytelling never appealed to you was because of the pacing.

 

[David A. Sobral]

Wow! Believe it or not, this is the FIRST time I've ever heard ANYONE complaining about TWOK! Yes, the film had MAJOR plot holes but, so do many other sci-fi films ("Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs" anyone?...believe it or not, I DO have an explanation for that line, being something of an amateur astronomer). Like it or not, as far as STAR TREK MOVIES go, TWOK is the best. TSFS is my personal favorite, TVH was made to bring in non-Trekkers, TFF was thrown together to satisfy Shatner's contract & TUC was the send-off & 25th Anniversary gift to the fans, which was kind of what TMP was as well. If you were old enough to see the films when they first came out, maybe your reactions would be different. I was, I think, the perfect age to be a STAR TREK fan (born 1962). I was floored & bored out of my mind by TMP (the 1999 Directors' Cut is great, though...of course, ANYTHING would have been an improvement) so when TWOK came around, I was blown away! This film (for 1982) MOVED, whereas TMP stood still, which was why TWOK is generally considered to be the "best" STAR TREK film. Plus, it was produced by a TV guy & directed by a dude who had no knowledge of TOS. Considering those two factors, TWOK was really quite well done.

Think about it, price tag aside, TMP SHOULD have been a FANTASTIC film! My God, they had both Robert Wise AND Gene Roddenberry putting it together. GR had YEARS to come up with a good story & this was the best they could do? Plus, RW was a master of sci-fi ("Andromeda Strain"/"Day the Earth Stood Still") & cinema. Alan Dean Foster? Always one of my favorite authors. TMP should have been the BEST with all subsequent sequels going downhill. Instead, the series got better & TWOK really kicked it into high gear.

For all its' faults & plot holes, if it wasn't for TWOK, there'd have been no more movies, no "Next Generation", DS9, "Voyager", "Enterprise" (the latter three not among my faves), and certainly no JJ Abrams re-boot!

 

[JustKate]

Some of us just don't like it, David. That's just the way it goes. You think it's the best, lots of people think it's the best, but I don't. At all. (I won't summarize my reasons again since I've already done so in this thread.) It's not nearly as cut-and-dried as you seem to think it is.

When TWOK came out, I was incredibly disappointed, whereas you were "blown away." That summarizes the difference in our points of view right there. And no amount of explanation is going to change that, really. How could it?

 

[RobertScorpio]

any non-fans of TWOK are just fans-of-Nemesis plants!!! just kidding...

To each their own. Some of the reasons I am reading just, well, I just don't understand. But, oh well, what can say.

Rob

 

[Chrisisall]

When TWOK came out, I was incredibly disappointed, whereas you were "blown away." That summarizes the difference in our points of view right there.

I loved TMP when it came out.
I hesitated to see WOK because the TV promos made it look like an idiot actioner, but eventually I saw it, and enjoyed despite myself (many times as a matter of fact). BUT- I actually liked TSFS a WHOLE lot more when it came out.

Still, TMP has the grand scope & lack of irritating offspring.

 

[RyuRoots]

Like it or not, as far as STAR TREK MOVIES go, TWOK is the best.

Hahaha, No. And here's why:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective

Some of us just don't like it, David. That's just the way it goes. You think it's the best, lots of people think it's the best, but I don't. At all. (I won't summarize my reasons again since I've already done so in this thread.) It's not nearly as cut-and-dried as you seem to think it is.

When TWOK came out, I was incredibly disappointed, whereas you were "blown away." That summarizes the difference in our points of view right there. And no amount of explanation is going to change that, really. How could it?

I wasn't around in TWoK first came out in theaters, but I pretty much agree.

any non-fans of TWOK are just fans-of-Nemesis plants!!!

Well I'd never! *pops monocle*

 

[Warped9]

I enjoyed TWoK when it came it even though I had reservations. But subsequent viewings just wore away most of what I liked to the current point that I see so many flaws.

I do like its energy and pacing. I do like much of the performances and many of the character moments. I also like quite a few of the visuals for their own sake.

But when I start considering the story and the raft of logic flaws then I just hang my head and sigh heavily in disappointment. It isn't just the story and its logic flaws but also a lot of conceptual flaws.

Here's the thing from my perspective. If Robert Wise had been given sufficient time to properly edit and complete his film, and if Paramount had been more honest about the real budget, and if Wise et al had injected a bit more energy into TMP then I feel reasonably sure it would have been much better received and considered pretty much kick-ass. And subsequently we might have gotten a smarter film to go with the energy of whatever STII would have been.

Long before ST09 of this year I consider TWoK to be an alternate universe Trek...albeit one far better and smarter even with its flaws than ST09.

 

[TOS Purist]

If it wasn't for TWOK, there'd have been no more movies, no "Next Generation", DS9, "Voyager", "Enterprise," and certainly no JJ Abrams re-boot!

All the more reason(s) why we would have been better off without TWOK. Or at least I would have been - I shouldn't speak for others who like those cheesy spin-offs for some reason.

If Robert Wise had been given sufficient time to properly edit his film, [...] and if Wise et al had injected a bit more energy into TMP

You mean...like how I did with my TMP edit?

 

[Warped9]

^^ In all candor what TMP DE really needs is something that can't be put in without a time machine to transport us back to the late '70s. It needs more character and substance story wise. No degree of editing can inject that.