No - you were *incompetent*

[Mojomoe]

Oy vei

So, been readin' the threads about STVI:TUC lately, and there's NO WAY I'm jumping into that crapfest. I just ironed this shirt, thankyouverymuch.

However, I did want to bring up my only real complaint about TUC, and - notwithstanding all of the good arguments put up by my fellow posters - the only thing that really takes me out of the movie. And for the record, I really like TUC, and so does my lass - a non-Trekker (but then again, she also thought TFF was great fun, bless her!)

Okay, so I can handle the bigotry. I really can - never bothered me. I can handle Uhura not knowing Klingon(ese), because... well, I'm sure I can Treksplain it somehow. (Klingon empire not really on the radar when she was in Academy training, and the E's mission in deep space didn't necessitate local-boundary languages? Just a thought).

But what really gets me is McCoy. Now I LOVE McCoy. One of my absolute favorite characters, simply because he's always honorable, upstanding, and supremely confident. But his line "Jim, I don't even know his anatomy!" REALLY pisses me off. Doesn't know his anatomy? What was it, 27 years as CMO & Ship's Surgeon? Not knowing Klingon is an operational hazard for Uhura. Not knowing their medical information is a criminal offense for a CMO. Really. This is just nuts, and makes me hate McCoy eveery time he says it.

Later, at the trial when Chang challanges McCoy as having been "incompetent," he is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Assassination and conspiracy aside, McCoy should have been cashiered out of Starfleet on the eve of his retirement for his criminal negligence and absolutely unforgivable unpreparedness and is - personally and circumstantially - responsible for the death of the Klingon Chancellor.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
-Moe!

 

[mrsspock]

well, I too love McCoy and I see it like this. My mother has cancer...and she goes to 3 or 4 different doctors because they can't all do the same thing...there's the oncologist, the urilogist, the Dr. that acutally dispenses the chemotherapy and then there's the OBG/GYN oncologist...if we humans have to have upteen doctors who are part of the same spieces treat us...it's not so hard to believe that McCoy isn't fimaliar enough to save his life.
that's what I tell myself anyway! LOL

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Mojomoe said:
McCoy should have been cashiered out of Starfleet on the eve of his retirement for his criminal negligence and absolutely unforgivable unpreparedness and is - personally and circumstantially - responsible for the death of the Klingon Chancellor.

Are you kidding? McCoy should have been subject of a Starfleet general court-martial and shipped off to the Tantalus Penal Colony for not bothering to run his medical tricorder over Chekov and Terrell when they were found aboard Regula 1, even after both admitted to being exposed by Khan to an alien mind-controlling parasite. Of course, when one looks at who directed these films...

TGT

 

[Good Will Riker]

I am currently studying to be a registered nurse, and my area of study focuses on human anatomy. I also happen to be an owner of a labrador retriever, but I am only vaguely familiar with a dog's anatomy (more like guesswork...) as I am with the human anatomy.

Just because I know where all the parts are -- and in McCoy's case he never had access to that level of medical information as did virtually all of his Federation medical colleagues when treating a Klingon patient -- does not necessarily mean I am aware of how all the parts work within a particular bodily system.

I hope this helps.

 

[Good Will Riker]

The God Thing said:
Are you kidding? McCoy should have been subject of a Starfleet general court-martial and shipped off to the Tantalus Penal Colony for not bothering to run his medical tricorder over Chekov and Terrell when they were found aboard Regula 1, even after both admitted to being exposed by Khan to an alien mind-controlling parasite. Of course, when one looks at who directed these films...

TGT

Welcome, back bro! :thumbsup:


How did you let them to get you back in?

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Good Will Riker said:
How did you let them to get you back in?

I am very good at begging. BTW, thank you for starting this thread. I sincerely appreciate it.

TGT

 

[Chuckles]

Anatomy is a bad way of phrasing it. McCoy's line should have been, I'm not familiar with his medical history.

You have people that are allergic to penicillin, so it could have been possible that Gorkon was allergic to something that Bones had given him.

But anatomy comes off easier to understand for the general audience.

 

[mrsspock]

Chuckles said:
Anatomy is a bad way of phrasing it. McCoy's line should have been, I'm not familiar with his medical history.

You have people that are allergic to penicillin, so it could have been possible that Gorkon was allergic to something that Bones had given him.

But anatomy comes off easier to understand for the general audience.

yes, that makes sense.

 

[Mojomoe]

I hears what you're saying.

But McCoy isn't a specialist, he's the CMO. Now, unless Starfleet is run by retards (don't anybody DARE run with that), the CMO of a deep space exploratory ship with a diverse crew would be REQUIRED to have advanced training in exobiology.

Even if exobio wasn't standard at the Academy in the twenty-one-teens, or whenever the hell that crotchety bastard went to med school, new training should have been mandated when - back me up on this, God Dude - the Enterprise crew was diversified under Decker's command in the 2270s.

Point being, he SHOULD have known Klingon anatomy.

And you know what? Something else just occurred to me.

The Enterprise was ordered to escort the KLINGON CHANCELLOR through Federation space for a PEACE SUMMIT. Escort. Chancellor. Safety. Chief Surgeon.

What. The fuck.

I know by the 2290s the Enterprise was a twelve-captain, we're-all-friends, haven't-been-promoted-in-two-decades Family Fun Center. But this was big stuff. The CMO can't be bothered to know his shit for a high-profile escort mission? Get one who CAN.

Thoughts?
-Moe!

 

[Good Will Riker]

The God Thing said:
I am very good at begging. BTW, thank you for starting this thread. I sincerely appreciate it.
TGT

"Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in." - Michael Corleone, The Godfather, Part III (1990)

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Mojomoe said:
Even if exobio wasn't standard at the Academy in the twenty-one-teens, or whenever the hell that crotchety bastard went to med school, new training should have been mandated when - back me up on this, God Dude - the Enterprise crew was diversified under Decker's command in the 2270s.

I think you are doing just peachy by yourself.

TGD

 

[Franklin]

I don't know if it's too big a deal. McCoy didn't even seem all that knowledgeable of Vulcan anatomy. At least in Gorkon's case he probably has the excuse of never having had to actually perform medicine on a Klingon before.

Frankly, I think it's worse that Uhura doesn't know Klingon. Kinda reflects the current U.S. attitude towards having our personnel in the field know the languages of our adversaries and potential adversaries, doesn't it? Nice to see we don't learn from history.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Franklin said:
Frankly, I think it's worse that Uhura doesn't know Klingon. Kinda reflects the current U.S. attitude towards having our personnel in the field know the languages of our adversaries and potential adversaries, doesn't it? Nice to see we don't learn from history.

Ya know, this would have been the ideal moment to reverse what happened in ST:TFF. The crew of that dingy listening post hear a sultry female voice replying to their interrogative in absolutely perfect Klingon, they let the Enterprise pass, and then we cut back to Kirk and Spock looking aghast at a smirking Uhura who would say something to the effect of, "I'll let you two guess the topic of that academy seminar I was invited to chair."

TGT

 

[Good Will Riker]

Mojomoe said:
I hears what you're saying.

But McCoy isn't a specialist, he's the CMO. Now, unless Starfleet is run by retards (don't anybody DARE run with that), the CMO of a deep space exploratory ship with a diverse crew would be REQUIRED to have advanced training in exobiology.

Dr. Julian Bashir had to specifically train in the area of exobiology for his deep space assignment.

This clearly was not Dr. McCoy's area of expertise. The Federation was clearly at war with the Klingon Empire, and for some reason or another, the Federation medical database had limited knowledge of Klingon anatomy. A surgeon is only as good as his knowledge and experience. McCoy -- as with virtually all other Federation doctors at the time -- had very little understanding of the Klingon anatomy.

It isn't as if they had the chance to dissect and study a Klingon body in greater detail during all those years of "cold war" tensions between the UFP and the Klingon Empire? On the flipside, the Klingons had an extremely limited knowledge of human anatomy, as well.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Mojomoe said:

Point being, he SHOULD have known Klingon anatomy.

Why should he have?

The line, and McCoy's unpreparedness in treating a Klingon are well within the theme of this film, which is tearing down walls. The Klingons were portrayed as a secretive race, where the humans knew next to nothing about their culture. Thus, McCoy's complaint about not knowing their anatomy makes perfect sense considering how little humans should know about a Klingon.

Remember, this was a TOS film. It wasn't a TNG film, and was filmed long before Enterprise showed doctors on Earth treating Klingons.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

TremblingBluStar said:

Mojomoe said:

Point being, he SHOULD have known Klingon anatomy.

Why should he have?

The line, and McCoy's unpreparedness in treating a Klingon are well within the theme of this film, which is tearing down walls. The Klingons were portrayed as a secretive race, where the humans knew next to nothing about their culture. Thus, McCoy's complaint about not knowing their anatomy makes perfect sense considering how little humans should know about a Klingon.

Remember, this was a TOS film. It wasn't a TNG film, and was filmed long before Enterprise showed doctors on Earth treating Klingons.

You're right. The whole tone of this film could be summed up in Spock's memorable line: "There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China."

Klingon physiology was probably as foreign to McCoy as communist Chinese culture was to most Americans in 1972.

 

[mrsspock]

Jackson_Roykirk said:

TremblingBluStar said:

Mojomoe said:

Point being, he SHOULD have known Klingon anatomy.

Why should he have?

The line, and McCoy's unpreparedness in treating a Klingon are well within the theme of this film, which is tearing down walls. The Klingons were portrayed as a secretive race, where the humans knew next to nothing about their culture. Thus, McCoy's complaint about not knowing their anatomy makes perfect sense considering how little humans should know about a Klingon.

Remember, this was a TOS film. It wasn't a TNG film, and was filmed long before Enterprise showed doctors on Earth treating Klingons.

You're right. The whole tone of this film could be summed up in Spock's memorable line: "There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China."

Klingon physiology was probably as foreign to McCoy as communist Chinese culture was to most Americans in 1972.

I never quite understood the statement. Only Nixon could go to China? can someone explain?? LOL

 

[Therin of Andor]

TremblingBluStar said:
The Klingons were portrayed as a secretive race, where the humans knew next to nothing about their culture.

Not only that, it was the first time he'd encountered a Klingon with pink blood. What else might have been different?

There seem to be many subspecies of Klingons. In TNG, Beverly didn't realize that Worf had so many back-up organs, but Gorkon's internal arrangement might have totally different to any Klingon corpses McCoy studied in TOS.

 

[Ceridwen]

McCoy spent the majority of the five-year mission serving alongside Spock, treated the man numerous times, even performed open heart surgery on his father, and yet over and over again he makes comments to the effect that he knows very, very little about Vulcan physiology. Some of these remarks can be written off as playful ribbing between Spock and McCoy, but a number of them are delivered quite seriously in moments when it is vital that he know something about the way the ship's Science Officer is arranged internally.

If McCoy can't even be bothered to study up on the anatomy of a fellow officer and friend, why would we expect him to have even the most basic knowledge of an enemy species?

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

mrsspock said:
I never quite understood the statement. Only Nixon could go to China? can someone explain?? LOL

In 1972, Nixon became the first US president to visit China, who was one of our biggest enemies, behind the USSR. We had no diplomatic relations to China at the time, and since China was very much a "closed society", very little was known about them. The main (publically stated) purpose of his visit was to normalize relations with the Chinese and open lines of dialogue that would lead to peaceful coexistence between our countries. Nixon took it upon himself to make the unilateral move to set up diplomatic talks with the previously enigmatic China.

It was unprecedented for a president to go to an enemy such as China and say "lets talk face to face", without first asking for some specific concessions in return. This showed how serious we were. (take North Korea for instance...the President won't directly talk to them unless they make the first move to back down a little regarding nukes)

The analogy to Kirk is that he, of all people - one of the Federations most visible enemies of the Klingons, and the one person who has a right to resent the Klingons - would be the one to initiate peace talks. By sending Kirk on a mission of peace was one of the few ways to prove to the Klingons how serious the Federation was.

Only Nixon could go to China = Only James Kirk could go to The Klingons.

As a side note, even though China was one of our biggest enemies at the time, the USSR was a bigger threat. And since China and the USSR, who used to be allies but were now growing apart, the US thought it would be in their best interest to normalize relations with China to hopefully put some pressure on the Soviets (sort of like an "our enemy's enemy" thing).