Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
It’s a single-use spell.
It’s a single-use spell.
No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinions?
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Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
Because that would have been a boring ending.
And we still wouldn't know how ShatnerKirk died.
Because that would have been a boring ending.
And we still wouldn't know how ShatnerKirk died.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
^Why not go back in time a few days and save Robert and Rene from burning? Why not go and arrest Soran in Ten Forward? Generations is full of plot holes.
^Why not go back in time a few days and save Robert and Rene from burning? Why not go and arrest Soran in Ten Forward? Generations is full of plot holes.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
The biggest problem with time travel as a plot device is invariably, people always come back to "Well, what didn't so-and-so just go back in time and save so-and-so and this planet?" If overused, you get things to complicated you can't even begin to make sense of things ever again.
The biggest problem with time travel as a plot device is invariably, people always come back to "Well, what didn't so-and-so just go back in time and save so-and-so and this planet?" If overused, you get things to complicated you can't even begin to make sense of things ever again.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
The funny thing is that Orci seems to be the only one in the creative team who gives a shit whether the time travel created an alternate universe or just overwrote the timeline. There's also nothing in the movie that carves this "new style of time travel" in stone.
That's actually easy. There's two ways things can happen: 1. they way it is supposed to be, meaning a natural chain of event, and then 2. events caused by time travel (not supposed to be). Most disasters happen in a natural way, and hence there is no reason to go back in time (it's actually forbidden in Star Trek, it's like the Prime Directive of time travel: no interference in natural chain of events). When Nero destroyed Vulcan, or when the Borg assimilated Earth in the past, of course such an event must be stopped, because it is simply not supposed to be.
That's why they wouldn't go back in time to save Romulus, since it was destroyed by a natural cause. But they would go back in time to save Vulcan, since a time traveller fucked it up.
The funny thing is that Orci seems to be the only one in the creative team who gives a shit whether the time travel created an alternate universe or just overwrote the timeline. There's also nothing in the movie that carves this "new style of time travel" in stone.
That's actually easy. There's two ways things can happen: 1. they way it is supposed to be, meaning a natural chain of event, and then 2. events caused by time travel (not supposed to be). Most disasters happen in a natural way, and hence there is no reason to go back in time (it's actually forbidden in Star Trek, it's like the Prime Directive of time travel: no interference in natural chain of events). When Nero destroyed Vulcan, or when the Borg assimilated Earth in the past, of course such an event must be stopped, because it is simply not supposed to be.
That's why they wouldn't go back in time to save Romulus, since it was destroyed by a natural cause. But they would go back in time to save Vulcan, since a time traveller fucked it up.
That's why they invented that "time police", for instance the USS Relativity in VOY or Daniels in Enterprise. Ships and task forces sitting outside the timeline, registering changes caused by time travelers. The events of First Contact were predestined to turn out the way they did, which is why they didn't interfer. But nobody said the Borg didn't try it again and again and again. But every time it was registered, stopped and undone.
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Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
^^^ So you believe that at some point in the course of the JJ Abrams alternative timeline the "time police" are going to reverse the effects of all of Nero's actions and put 155 years of prime timeline back in place?
^^^ So you believe that at some point in the course of the JJ Abrams alternative timeline the "time police" are going to reverse the effects of all of Nero's actions and put 155 years of prime timeline back in place?
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
The in-movie evidence is vague. The fact that Orci is interested in the difference between time travel and travel between realities is the important point that proves to me that both types of travel are now operative in the Trekverse and Trek XI is an example of the latter (which doesn't preclude stories that involve the former method, either).
I dunno if that's "carved in stone" but once you open up a possibility, you can't close it later.
No, because it's not the kind of "time crime" they're concerned with. Nobody messed with their own timeline. They messed with how the future of someone else's reality will develop. Not nice, but not a "time crime."
The in-movie evidence is vague. The fact that Orci is interested in the difference between time travel and travel between realities is the important point that proves to me that both types of travel are now operative in the Trekverse and Trek XI is an example of the latter (which doesn't preclude stories that involve the former method, either).
I dunno if that's "carved in stone" but once you open up a possibility, you can't close it later.
No, because it's not the kind of "time crime" they're concerned with. Nobody messed with their own timeline. They messed with how the future of someone else's reality will develop. Not nice, but not a "time crime."
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
At least in Dr Who we always had the Blinovitch Limitation Effect...
At least in Dr Who we always had the Blinovitch Limitation Effect...
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
Well that has always been in Trek. TNG "Parallels" and ENT "In a mirror, darkly" anyone? In both episodes they switches universes and travelled through time.
Which is why I think that in Star Trek, this kind of (fictional) time travel applies: parallel universes exist (for example the Mirror Universe, seen in TOS, DS9 and ENT), and each universe has its own timeline (with predestination paradoxes concerning one universe only).
Well that has always been in Trek. TNG "Parallels" and ENT "In a mirror, darkly" anyone? In both episodes they switches universes and travelled through time.
Which is why I think that in Star Trek, this kind of (fictional) time travel applies: parallel universes exist (for example the Mirror Universe, seen in TOS, DS9 and ENT), and each universe has its own timeline (with predestination paradoxes concerning one universe only).
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
When Nero traveled into the prime timeline's past and changed his own (distant) past -- how isn't that "Nobody messed with their own timeline?"
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
A lot of people can't get their head around the many worlds theory (including Trek writers). Still, consider the number of times Trek has branched off due to time travel in the past. The universe 'overwritten' by Nero wasn't the same universe we saw in Where No Man Has Gone Before due to to interfering time travellers a dozen times over and that's just the ones we've seen on camera. Even Nero's future branched out again due to the arrival of Spock. Give me the predestination time travel theory any day.
A lot of people can't get their head around the many worlds theory (including Trek writers). Still, consider the number of times Trek has branched off due to time travel in the past. The universe 'overwritten' by Nero wasn't the same universe we saw in Where No Man Has Gone Before due to to interfering time travellers a dozen times over and that's just the ones we've seen on camera. Even Nero's future branched out again due to the arrival of Spock. Give me the predestination time travel theory any day.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
I'm a believer that in science fiction, time travel is sort of a given. It's always out there, available to be used. And I think that's as it should be. It doesn't matter if something is used once or a million times. It's all in the execution. If the overall story is well done, I see no problem with it.
That said, the Klingon ambassador is probably about ready to accuse me of bias, as my idea for XII includes time travel.
Though it has nothing to do with repairing anything that we saw in XI.
I'm a believer that in science fiction, time travel is sort of a given. It's always out there, available to be used. And I think that's as it should be. It doesn't matter if something is used once or a million times. It's all in the execution. If the overall story is well done, I see no problem with it.
That said, the Klingon ambassador is probably about ready to accuse me of bias, as my idea for XII includes time travel.
Though it has nothing to do with repairing anything that we saw in XI.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
That wasn't his own timeline. He's not in the timeline that leads necessarily to Romulus being blown up anymore, and even if it is, that's a different Romulus. When he went thru the wormhole, he either entered a new reality that had already been there, or created a new reality through his actions (or maybe Spock created the reality, I'm not quite sure about that, or maybe they created two different realities, but the movie plotline only followed one).
That's how the two Spocks were able to meet without destroying the cosmos due to the impossibility of the two same people occupying the same space. They're not the same people. It's as if Spock had met the goateed Spock from the MU. Nobody thinks of those guys as being "the same person."
(And were the Spocks right about that? Has a character ever met him or herself in a time travel episode?)
That wasn't his own timeline. He's not in the timeline that leads necessarily to Romulus being blown up anymore, and even if it is, that's a different Romulus. When he went thru the wormhole, he either entered a new reality that had already been there, or created a new reality through his actions (or maybe Spock created the reality, I'm not quite sure about that, or maybe they created two different realities, but the movie plotline only followed one).
That's how the two Spocks were able to meet without destroying the cosmos due to the impossibility of the two same people occupying the same space. They're not the same people. It's as if Spock had met the goateed Spock from the MU. Nobody thinks of those guys as being "the same person."
(And were the Spocks right about that? Has a character ever met him or herself in a time travel episode?)
I can't remember what happens in Parallels but if one of the MU episodes involved time travel, then yeah, that's the same idea.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
I'm just glad this many worlds business has sorted out all the problems associated with traditional time travel while simultaneously making everything crystal clear and understandable. And they said it couldn't be done.
I'm just glad this many worlds business has sorted out all the problems associated with traditional time travel while simultaneously making everything crystal clear and understandable. And they said it couldn't be done.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
I loathe the many worlds theory. Sure, in the movie we saw Kirk saved the day but what about the millions of universes where he cocked the whole thing up, the tens of thousands of universes where Gaila gave him space herpes, or the one where Keenser saved Vulcan with the help of a certain Time Lord?
I loathe the many worlds theory. Sure, in the movie we saw Kirk saved the day but what about the millions of universes where he cocked the whole thing up, the tens of thousands of universes where Gaila gave him space herpes, or the one where Keenser saved Vulcan with the help of a certain Time Lord?
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
I know I'm a little tired of the time traveling crap.... we're supposed to be exploring space, the final frontier.... not going back to 1955 to make sure Marty McFly's parents hook up.
Damit Jim, it's called Star Trek, not Time Trek.
Ever since Voyager, it seems that Star Trek started to focus more on time travel then space exploration...... I mean once ST First Contact came out, which I loved and was one of the best ST movies to date, Voyager started jumping around and screwing with time.... and then Enterprise comes along and time travel and screwing up the timeline became a main part of the overall story, like what the hell man? Sure Time Travel was used in other ST shows and the TOS movies like the Voyage Home..... but after First Contact, it's like every ST writer and producer became the Pimp, and Time Travel became the H'o where everybody gets to take a spin with it.
And then they reboot Star Trek with the last movie by, once again.... Time Travel and screwing up the time line.
I'd much rather see Star Trek eventually move beyond our galaxy (Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta Quadrants) and venture into some of the other Galaxies around us which it seemed the Enterprise D did a little bit in the episode: "Where No One Has Gone Before"
But unfortunately, the entire saga just got rebooted and we're almost back to square one to revisit everything all over again.
Oh... but this time it's a little different.... bah.
And once again, I liked the new movie too and it was nice to see an updated version of the TOS saga..... but I would have much preferred if they progressed with the already existing timeline.... maybe jump another couple of generations like they did between TOS and TNG and go from there.
I know I'm a little tired of the time traveling crap.... we're supposed to be exploring space, the final frontier.... not going back to 1955 to make sure Marty McFly's parents hook up.
Damit Jim, it's called Star Trek, not Time Trek.
Ever since Voyager, it seems that Star Trek started to focus more on time travel then space exploration...... I mean once ST First Contact came out, which I loved and was one of the best ST movies to date, Voyager started jumping around and screwing with time.... and then Enterprise comes along and time travel and screwing up the timeline became a main part of the overall story, like what the hell man? Sure Time Travel was used in other ST shows and the TOS movies like the Voyage Home..... but after First Contact, it's like every ST writer and producer became the Pimp, and Time Travel became the H'o where everybody gets to take a spin with it.
And then they reboot Star Trek with the last movie by, once again.... Time Travel and screwing up the time line.
I'd much rather see Star Trek eventually move beyond our galaxy (Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Delta Quadrants) and venture into some of the other Galaxies around us which it seemed the Enterprise D did a little bit in the episode: "Where No One Has Gone Before"
But unfortunately, the entire saga just got rebooted and we're almost back to square one to revisit everything all over again.
Oh... but this time it's a little different.... bah.
And once again, I liked the new movie too and it was nice to see an updated version of the TOS saga..... but I would have much preferred if they progressed with the already existing timeline.... maybe jump another couple of generations like they did between TOS and TNG and go from there.
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Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
All time travel theories have major problems for storytelling:
Many worlds - If there's an infinite number of realities, who cares what happened in any one of them?
Single timeline - So why didn't they go back to X and do Y, and solve problem Z before the story ever started (so that there was no story at all)?
Time traveller as tourist - The time traveller can observe the action but not influence it - obvious so-what problems.
It's not my timeline, PAR-TAY! - You travel in time to a timeline not your own. Another so-what problem.
The best time travel stories accept these problems and strive to work around/minimize them. Twelve Monkeys for instance had the "time traveller as tourist" problem (I think
) but since the focus was on the tragic dimension of the Bruce Willis character, it never seemed to matter so much. The "PAR-TAY!" option has been used in stories where a time traveller from what is obviously not our own timeline (no Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941) arrives "here" and "fixes" the timeline so that it's the one we all know and love.
All time travel theories have major problems for storytelling:
Many worlds - If there's an infinite number of realities, who cares what happened in any one of them?
Single timeline - So why didn't they go back to X and do Y, and solve problem Z before the story ever started (so that there was no story at all)?
Time traveller as tourist - The time traveller can observe the action but not influence it - obvious so-what problems.
It's not my timeline, PAR-TAY! - You travel in time to a timeline not your own. Another so-what problem.
The best time travel stories accept these problems and strive to work around/minimize them. Twelve Monkeys for instance had the "time traveller as tourist" problem (I think
) but since the focus was on the tragic dimension of the Bruce Willis character, it never seemed to matter so much. The "PAR-TAY!" option has been used in stories where a time traveller from what is obviously not our own timeline (no Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941) arrives "here" and "fixes" the timeline so that it's the one we all know and love.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
Time travel has resulted in some very memorable Trek stories, but also some total crap. (Endgame/Temporal Cold War, anyone?)
Since the JJ-verse was born as a divergent time-travel-created reality, I think it'd be pretty silly to go back to that well. Both the original TOS cast and the TNG cast did one time-travel movie each, and that was about right. The JJTOS already has a travel-movie right out the gate... so please, no mas, not with these characters or actors. Maybe someday, with a different cast set in the same alternate reality, but not with these guys.
Time travel has resulted in some very memorable Trek stories, but also some total crap. (Endgame/Temporal Cold War, anyone?)
Since the JJ-verse was born as a divergent time-travel-created reality, I think it'd be pretty silly to go back to that well. Both the original TOS cast and the TNG cast did one time-travel movie each, and that was about right. The JJTOS already has a travel-movie right out the gate... so please, no mas, not with these characters or actors. Maybe someday, with a different cast set in the same alternate reality, but not with these guys.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
The poster who put down Orci's paraphrase, I thank you. I was going to do the same thing. I don't remember the exact line either, but it made me happy when I read it.
I really do believe the franchise is in good hands for the time being.
The poster who put down Orci's paraphrase, I thank you. I was going to do the same thing. I don't remember the exact line either, but it made me happy when I read it.
I really do believe the franchise is in good hands for the time being.
Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio
No, because no writer, director or producer is ever going to return to the Prime timeline. They effectively killed that option off by doing the new movie.
No, because no writer, director or producer is ever going to return to the Prime timeline. They effectively killed that option off by doing the new movie.
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