No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinions?

[Cadet49]

Is anyone else tired of seeing time travel used in Trek - it is just problematic, and leaves huge plot holes.

Spoiler: A spoiler about ST XI, if you haven't seen it! ;-)

E.g. In Star Trek, why doesn't Spock just use the slingshot effect or the Guardian of Forever to go back in time to stop Nero from destroying Vulcan?

I think someone writing for Trek should establish something like, "In this alternate reality, the physical of space-time continuum do not allow continued travel through time" or something, so we don't have the ever convenient "reset button" from other trek series.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I don't think we need to hide spoilers about the movie at this point.

Nero went thru the wormhole thing into an alternate universe. Even if Spock did un-blow-up Romulus back in the prime universe (or someone else did that, since I don't think Spock had time before being sucked into the alternate universe, too), how would Nero know about it?

There's nothing Spock can do via time travel in the alternate universe to change anything - Romulus is just fine where he is, currently and possibly also in the future, since Starfleet can now warn the Rommies about the danger in time for them to do something about it. He could use the slingshot effect to un-blow-up Vulcan, but that begs the question of why Starfleet hasn't used the slingshot to fix any number of bad things before they happened.

I figure that they learned the hard way that you go back and un-blow-up Vulcan, and you just set in motion a chain of events that ends up with the Ferengi ruling the galaxy or something. That's why Temporal Investigations exists. Whatever keeps Our Heroes from futzing with the timeline in the prime universe will also inhibit them in the alt u, so we don't need to make up new rules for them.

 

[ConRefit79]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I would not say they should never use it again. But the next film should not use it. Maybe more.

OOooooo!!!! For all those who want Kahn in a future picture, here is an approach I can agree with. Accidental Time Travel back to the height of the Eugenics wars.

 

[shapeshifter]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Orci said, paraphrased, As long as I am in charge there will be no sling-shotting around the sun time travel.

He seems committed to abolishing the reset button and I say, good for him. This really ups the time travel stakes though. The price of what he's done, (switching from single time line to multiple universes) is he can no longer do any time travel stories without creating a new universe, unless the story calls for that.

The result is time travel stories are now more limited and I am fine with that since, imo, that well ran dry long ago.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Starfleet can now warn the Rommies about the danger in time for them to do something about it.

Given that a bunch of Romulan citizens in a Romulan ship just killed six billion Federation citizens, yeah I sure the Federation is going to be falling all over themselves to warn the Romulans about that supernova.

 

[Shatnertage]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Please no more Trek time travel--you've got a ship, a crew, and a whole galaxy to explore. You don't need to go back in time to tell a good story.

No parallel earths that look exactly like existing movie sets, either. I don't mind encountering races that look human, just give them different cultures, or not generic stock cultures (Romans! Gangsters! Wild West!). I thought Doctor Who approached this best with The Ribos Operation, where it was a clearly alien culture that had some similarities to medieval Russia.

I feel like we've got a great sports car, all gassed up and ready to go. I want to hit the road and drive someplace I've never been, not take it down to the supermarket and back.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I want to hit the road and drive someplace I've never been

Local quarry?

 

[Captrek]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I agree that time travel is overused and often results in really stupid stories. On the other hand, time travel has been essential to many of Trek’s best stories. Among them: The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesteryear, The Voyage Home, Yesterday’s Enterprise, Tapestry, All Good Things... and The Visitor. Not to mention Trials and Tribbleations, which isn’t a great story, but may be the most fun episode in Trek.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I agree that time travel is overused and often results in some lousy stories. On the other hand, time travel has been involved in many of Trek’s best stories. Among them: The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesteryear, The Voyage Home, Yesterday’s Enterprise, Tapestry, All Good Things... and The Visitor.

Don't forget "Little Green Men, "Trials and Tribble-ations," "Assigment: Earth," and FIRST CONTACT.

Quality-wise, time travel actually has a pretty good track record where STAR TREK is concerned . . . .

 

[Cadet49]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I agree that time travel is overused and often results in some lousy stories. On the other hand, time travel has been involved in many of Trek’s best stories. Among them: The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesteryear, The Voyage Home, Yesterday’s Enterprise, Tapestry, All Good Things... and The Visitor.

Don't forget "Little Green Men, "Trials and Tribble-ations," "Assigment: Earth," and FIRST CONTACT.

Quality-wise, time travel actually has a pretty good track record where STAR TREK is concerned . . . .

Well ... I wouldn't say it worked well in Generations. The writers gave Picard the ability in the Nexus to return back in time to any point he wanted, and he chose to return to the moment just before Soran blew up the Veridian star? Wouldn't seem logical to the average viewer - why not go back and stop Soran when he first came aboard the Enterprise? Sure, we can argue that Picard didn't want to go very far back so as not to risk changing the timeline too much, but the time travel element creates a logical gap in the plot, in my opinion.

As for First Contact, the Enterprise episode, "Regeneration" seems to indicate that when the Ent-E left 21st century Earth, they missed some Borg in the Arctic, who then reanimated, assimilated some 22st century people who never got assimilated in the original timeline, and sent a signal to the Delta Quadrant in the 22nd century, which may have been hoe the Borg first discovered Earth - the signal. So, if that was the case, was it this oversight on the Ent-E's part that led to the Borg finding Earth long ago? Did Q really introduce the Borg to the Federation, or were they already on their way? If the Ent-E found Archer's account of the Borg and realized what had happened, and went back in time to collect these frozen Borg before they activated, would be then prevent the chain of events that led him to become Locutus in Best of Both Worlds?

These are some of the potential logic gaps in time travel stories that make them problematic, if overused.

 

[Shatnertage]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I want to hit the road and drive someplace I've never been

Local quarry?

Didn't consciously think of that. Funny.

 

[Cadet49]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I agree that time travel is overused and often results in some lousy stories. On the other hand, time travel has been involved in many of Trek’s best stories. Among them: The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesteryear, The Voyage Home, Yesterday’s Enterprise, Tapestry, All Good Things... and The Visitor.

Don't forget "Little Green Men, "Trials and Tribble-ations," "Assigment: Earth," and FIRST CONTACT.

Quality-wise, time travel actually has a pretty good track record where STAR TREK is concerned . . . .

Well ... I wouldn't say it worked well in Generations. The writers gave Picard the ability in the Nexus to return back in time to any point he wanted, and he chose to return to the moment just before Soran blew up the Veridian star? Wouldn't seem logical to the average viewer - why not go back and stop Soran when he first came aboard the Enterprise? Sure, we can argue that Picard didn't want to go very far back so as not to risk changing the timeline too much, but the time travel element creates a logical gap in the plot, in my opinion.

As for First Contact, the Enterprise episode, "Regeneration" seems to indicate that when the Ent-E left 21st century Earth, they missed some Borg, who then reanimated, assimilated some people who never got assimilated in the original timeline, and sent a signal to the Delta Quadrant, which may have been how the Borg Collective first discovered Earth and its stellar neighbours - the signal the Borg survivors sent in the 22nd century. So, if that was the case, was it this oversight on the Ent-E's part in First Contact that led to the Borg finding Earth in the 24th Century? Did Q really introduce the Borg to the Federation, or were they already on their way to Earth? Imagine if Picard found Captain Archer's account of these "cybernetic zombies", very similar to the Borg, being found in the Arctic in 2152, and suddenly realized what must have happened in the past. Now suppose Picard went back in time, back to the late 2060s, to collect these frozen Borg before they are discovered in 2152... would that then prevent the chain of events that led to the events of "Q Who?" and "Best of Both Worlds"? It's one of the potential dilemmas of time travel stories, when you look at the whole storyline arcs...

These are some of the potential logic gaps in time travel stories that make them problematic, if overused.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Well ... I wouldn't say it worked well in Generations.

Putting that example up against those Greg mentioned doesn't do much to balance the equation.

As for First Contact, the Enterprise episode, "Regeneration" seems to indicate that when the Ent-E left 21st century Earth...These are some of the potential logic gaps in time travel stories that make them problematic, if overused.

Who cares? "First Contact" is a really good movie regardless of what might or might have been done well in a later story.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Accidental Time Travel back to the height of the Eugenics wars.

That would be fun! But too confusing for the movie. If only Trek were on TV, that would make a nice arc.

The price of what he's done, (switching from single time line to multiple universes) is he can no longer do any time travel stories without creating a new universe, unless the story calls for that.

We don't know if he's switched the overall logic of the Trekverse per se. Those could be two entirely different things. Both are time travel of a sort, but in one case, you travel within your own timeline, and in the other, you go to a different reality's timeline (or it's created - no way to tell how the reality was born if you're in it).

Maybe which flavor of time travel happens depends on what you do. Slingshot = type A and wormhole-fu = type B. Temporal Investigations has banned all type A time travel and type B is very rare and hard to pull off (which explains why we haven't seen it before).

Given that a bunch of Romulan citizens in a Romulan ship just killed six billion Federation citizens, yeah I sure the Federation is going to be falling all over themselves to warn the Romulans about that supernova.

Even if those were Romulans from their own reality, that would be unfair. Romulans as a whole - in either reality - did not send that crew of nutty miners on their genocidal mission.

I certainly hope I'm not being blamed for whatever all those Vortas in an infinite number of parallel realities might be up to right at this second! (The mind boggles).

 

[Dukhat]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Using time travel in Star Trek '09 was necessary in order to create the alternate universe. Now that it's created, there's little need for time travel again.

 

[Nerd unRage]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

^ Agreed. Especially for the newest movie and any subsequent movies that may follow with this crew. Instead of recycling an easy out, go forward and play in the new sandbox they've created.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

There's a number of plot devices such as time travel that have been used multiple times in the Trek movies and tv shows. One could say visiting new worlds has been overdone in Trek. It's quality not quantity. It's how it's done more than it being done before. In Star Trek wasn't hasn't been done many times?

 

[Captrek]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I agree that time travel is overused and often results in some lousy stories. On the other hand, time travel has been involved in many of Trek’s best stories. Among them: The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesteryear, The Voyage Home, Yesterday’s Enterprise, Tapestry, All Good Things... and The Visitor.

Don't forget "Little Green Men", "Trials and Tribble-ations," "Assigment: Earth," and FIRST CONTACT.

Quality-wise, time travel actually has a pretty good track record where STAR TREK is concerned . . . .

TOS:All Our Yesterdays was pretty good. It’s not great art, but as far as Season 3 goes it’s one of the best of the bunch.

TNG:Cause and Effect deserves mention for very clever writing and good execution.

There are some, such as TNG:Inner Light and DS9:Far Beyond the Stars, where I don’t know whether they should count as time travel.

 

[Jeri]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

I always liked time travel; loved Daniels & Co. and would have liked to see more Relativity. Time is kind of an illusion in the universe; I don't have any trouble messing with it to see what happens.

 

[Cadet49]

Re: No more future stories about Time Travel as a plot device - opinio

Well ... I wouldn't say it worked well in Generations.

Putting that example up against those Greg mentioned doesn't do much to balance the equation.

As for First Contact, the Enterprise episode, "Regeneration" seems to indicate that when the Ent-E left 21st century Earth...These are some of the potential logic gaps in time travel stories that make them problematic, if overused.

Who cares? "First Contact" is a really good movie regardless of what might or might have been done well in a later story.

Yet, even by introducing time travel in that film, as a weapon used by the Borg, the writers create a problematic plot tool. If the Borg can travel back in time to assimilate worlds in the distant past, at points in their history where they are unable to resist, why wouldn't they be doing that with every world they try to assimilate? Just open a time vortex, travel back, and take over the world. Sure, Picard and crew stop the Borg by the end of the movie, and first contact is achieved between Earth and Vulcan, but what's to keep the Borg from not just going back in time over and over again until they finally win? That's the problem with time travel as a plot line.

(Heck, if the Borg have time travel, why didn't they just send their thousands of invading Borg cubes in the Star Trek Destiny trilogy back in time to Earth's Stone Age, and just take over back then?)

So, yes, Trek has done some great time travel stories over the years, but as a plot device, it creates the problem that there is the potential to lose the suspense, because essentially, any action can be undone through time travel...

For example, when I first watched Generations, and saw the crew of the crashed Ent-D being killed on Veridian III when the Nexus hit and destroyed the planet, I felt no shock or suspense whatsoever, because I knew Picard would somehow reset the timeline by the end of the movie. Even in ST IX, I wasn't really shocked when Vulcan was destroyed, because the writers can always bring it back in some future movie, through time travel ... so time travel as a science fiction plot tool kind of ruins some of the emotional stakes in a plot, in my opinion.