No love from the media. (Spoilers for "Before Dishonor")

[Therin of Andor]

That whole bit about English speaking territories and visual and verbal artforms.

Star Wars is more popular than Star Trek only in non English speaking countries? I fail to see why. Star Trek has been widely distributed all over the world and had quite a number of years head start on Star Wars, and many more instalments.

Of course that pidgin you speak Down Under barely qualifies as English
"Toss a couple of dingoes on the barbie mate!"

Why the insults?

Why did I even bother?

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

That whole bit about English speaking territories and visual and verbal artforms.

Star Wars is more popular than Star Trek only in non English speaking countries? I fail to see why. Star Trek has been widely distributed all over the world and had quite a number of years head start on Star Wars, and many more instalments.

I'm not going to poll everyone on the planet just to underline my point. My only experience is from my visits to India. Most of my cousins didn't care a jot about Star Trek (they knew what it was), but as soon as they got VHS machines, they wanted me to bring them the Star Wars movies on video. A non-representative sample of a nation of 1 billion (800 million back then but who's counting)

Of course that pidgin you speak Down Under barely qualifies as English
"Toss a couple of dingoes on the barbie mate!"

Why the insults?

Why did I even bother?

I'm English. It's my God given right to ridicule how everyone else speaks 'our' language. What else have we got given our track record in sports! And we still haven't forgiven that Howard fellow for laying hands on our monarch!

 

[Steve Roby]

I'd like to see what sort of 'facts' are had that attempt to prove Star Wars is more popular than Star Trek. I'd venture to say they are about equal in popularity/recognition. If either one has a lead at all it is a slim one, certainly not "by a hell of a lot."

If you're talking about the original Star Trek and recognition, then, yeah, as many people know Spock as know Darth Vader, probably. But not as many people are willing to spend actual money on Star Trek.

There are facts to be had about the respective franchises. For example, Locus, the Time/Newsweek of the SF world, prints a variety of bestseller lists from various sources: one's from a selected group of SF bookstores, others are from more well-known bestseller lists. They break out the media-related books in some of the lists. Generally, four out of five will be Star Wars books and one will be a Halo novel. Once in a while a Star Trek pops in, but not nearly as regularly as used to happen.

Dayton's posted box office scores. People are willing to spend a lot more money to see Star Wars than Star Trek.

From Forbes, looking at toys and merchandise sales:

Star Wars: Total lifetime gross of about $9 billion, according to Lucasfilm, from companies including Kenner, General Mills and Hasbro

Star Trek: Total lifetime gross of about $4 billion from companies including Playmates Toys, Hallmark and Hasbro

Now, that's balancing all of Trek against Star Wars. If you're talking Voyager, and that's where we started, you're talking something with a much lower profile.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

If we're playing the numbers game, remember that as things stand, Star Wars encompasses six movies, two Ewoks spinoffs, the Special that George Lucas wants to erase, the Ewoks, Droids and Clone Wars cartoons.

Star Trek is 10 movies, one animated series, five live action series, and prior to the last two movies and TV series, Star Wars was at half strength.

Star Wars has made a bigger impact with a whole lot less.

 

[Christopher]

What difference does it make? I personally don't see any value in a game of "My franchise is bigger than your franchise."

 

[KRAD]

What difference does it make? I personally don't see any value in a game of "My franchise is bigger than your franchise."

Because the subject under discussion is why the death of a major Star Wars character in the tie-in fiction got media coverage and the death of a major Star Trek character in the tie-in fiction didn't. So the relative popularity of Star Trek and Star Wars is, in fact, completely germane to the actual topic under discussion.

 

[Christopher]

Except that, as has already been pointed out, the lack of publicity for that character's demise is more about the popularity of Voyager, not about the popularity of Star Trek as a whole. You can bet that if Spock or Picard got killed off in a novel, it would probably get publicity. So the question of ST in general vs. SW is beside the point, and is causing this thread to degenerate into an argument about statistics, which has no meaning because you can cherrypick statistics to support any arbitrary thing you want.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Well, I for one regret my part in this heinous derailment, and humbly beg your forgiveness.

 

[LightningStorm]

People are willing to spend a lot more money to see Star Wars than Star Trek.

Perhaps... and I'm not trying to argue the point (since I really don't know for a fact) I'm just saying that I doubt that in any sort of 'popularity contest' that either would win in some sort of landslide victory.

As Christopher said, one can pick and choose and manipulate statistics however one wants, similarly one could offer fairly reasonable explanation as to why certain statistics seem to argue one side over the other.

To the quote I quoted above, I'd say (playing devil's advocate) that, that isn't necessarily as valid since Star Trek has been primarily free being on broadcast TV, so Trek hasn't even had the opportunity to gain the cash that Star Wars has since Wars has been "pay-per-view" since day one (until they got old and finally got runs on TV).

But, like I said I'm not really trying to argue the point, it's just that a statement of SW being A LOT more popular than ST struck me as off by a lot. As would someone saying that ST is A LOT more popular than SW.

 

[Therin of Andor]

You can bet that if Spock or Picard got killed off in a novel, it would probably get publicity.

There was a huge furore in 1980 - as huge as a pre-Internet fan furore can get - when "Starlog" casually mentioned that Vonda McIntyre was "killing off Kirk" in her novel, "The Entropy Effect". The fan news zines had letter after letter of vitriol that an author "could be allowed to do this" by Paramount.

Then Pocket Books was forced to delay publication until Bantam's contracted manuscripts had all been released. The waiting was agonizing for some fans. Even when people heard that "The Entropy Effect" took place before the events of TMP (and therefore there would be a "reset button" as it's come to be known these days), many remained inconsolable.

The book was a great success, of course, no doubt buoyed along by the free publicity. Then, of course, Ms McIntyre got to kill off Spock in her novelization of ST II. The rumored death of Spock, in the film itself, set off its own controversy, that mirrored - on an even bigger scale - the fuss over Kirk's death.

 

[kimc]

Are you seriously going to argue that the death of a character on a low-rated TV series that was more famous for starring Jeri Ryan's breasts than it was for anything else is really comparable to the deaths of a supporting character from one of the most popular film series of all time or to the deaths of iconic superheros who have been around and been popular for the better part of the 20th Century?

This actually comes up in the Voyager forum from time to time. In each Star Trek show there is a crafting of the captain's legacy. In Voyager though, this crafting was interupted when the focus shifted to Seven and the EMH. Consequently, Seven with her silved suit is the most recognizable characer in Voyager.

One thing that is starting to happen though is people are starting to watch/re-watch the show and are developing an appreciation for the other characters including Janeway. Every other day a new poster shows up on the Voyager forum with a post like: "Well I've started watching the series and..."

Janway may not be iconic now but I don't think her character is down for the count yet.

 

[AuntKate]

How many times can the writers go to the well (kill off a captain) and expect to have the press notice? Besides, from what I understand, Janeway's death is somewhat up in the air, thanks to the Q. And, then, there is the general dislike of the novel itself, over and above the Janeway issue.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ Er... and just how many times has this particular well been visited? Kirk, and...?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Defcon]

And, then, there is the general dislike of the novel itself, over and above the Janeway issue.

I wouldn't say there is a general dislike for the book, it's more one of those books that splits the readership. One half likes it, the other half hates it. Granted in contrast to the general lovefests that often occur for some books in the line, warranted or not, that's a negative reaction, but like so often it's a case of vocal people with negative views sharing their opinion, in this case often Voyager fans who feel their series was mishandled, than that there are really that much more people who hate the book than like it in my opinion.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it's more one of those books that splits the readership. One half likes it, the other half hates it.

And editor Marco Palmieri has said, right here, that he'd rather produce ST novels that polarized the readership than novels that were simply accepted lukewarmly by everyone. IIRC.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Er... and just how many times has this particular well been visited? Kirk, and...?

Calhoun. Thought to be dead for about two and a half books.

 

[JoeZhang]

^ Er... and just how many times has this particular well been visited? Kirk, and...?

Calhoun. Thought to be dead for about two and a half books.

Who's a complete nobody outside of fandom..

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Um... Spock, in the movie tie-ins.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Who's a complete nobody outside of fandom..

AuntKate simply asked, "How many times can the writers go to the well (kill off a captain)" apart from Janeway - in the novels. Kirk's been killed of controversially in "The Entropy Effect" (see Starlogs of the day), and then the resurrected Kirk (from "Generations") was killed off in Shatner's "The Return", but returned in "Avenger".

Calhoun's really the only other one.

 

[Defcon]

Who's a complete nobody outside of fandom..

AuntKate simply asked, "How many times can the writers go to the well (kill off a captain)" apart from Janeway - in the novels. Kirk's been killed of controversially in "The Entropy Effect" (see Starlogs of the day), and then the resurrected Kirk (from "Generations") was killed off in Shatner's "The Return", but returned in "Avenger".

Calhoun's really the only other one.

Sisko in Fallen Heroes would qualify as well, I would assume.