NFL 2013 Off-Season Discussion
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Top five Patriots players in yards receiving last year, and where they are now:
1) Wes Welker -- Denver
2) Brandon Lloyd -- free agent
3) Rob Gronkowski -- in NE, but injured
4) Aaron Hernandez -- charged with murder
5) Danny Woodhead -- San Diego
1) Wes Welker -- Denver
2) Brandon Lloyd -- free agent
3) Rob Gronkowski -- in NE, but injured
4) Aaron Hernandez -- charged with murder
5) Danny Woodhead -- San Diego
Well, if Hernandez & Wolcott (cut by Cleveland for attempted murder charges) beat the rap(s), at least they'll have a place on the Bengals.
No, they end up on the eagles so vick could help them get reassociated with league, cause you know hes an great role model.
Thanks for ruining my day.
All jokes aside, I really don't ever want to hear the phrase "the Patriot way" ever again. The media would have you believe that the Patriots are this model to be emulated of players that play the game unselfishly and play the game the "right way." Here is a list of those players from the last few years that make that phrase bullshit.
1. Cory Dillon (Lots of problems elsewhere but kept his nose clean in NE for the most part)
2. Albert Haynesworth (Refused to get in playing shape)
3. Randy Moss (Productive for a while but ultimately was a clubhouse killer)
4. Aaron Hernandez (Cut him after murder charges, no brainer)
5. Tebow (Good clubhouse guy, hard worker, but still a huge media distraction)
They don't have these mythical saintly standards for their players. They are well coached and they have arguably the best QB to ever play the game leading their team. They will win consistently until Brady can't go anymore. If Bellicheck thought he could win with Michael Vick a few years ago he would have been making conjugal visits on a weekly basis. They love to make fun of teams like the Jets and Cowboys for being a media circus but then troll the world by signing Tebow.
I'm interested to see how Brady performs without an all-star cast of receivers. There has always been a lot of emphasis on Brady winning these games, but this is his opportunity to still do it with brand new players.
We saw Peyton Manning throw to brand new guys last season (and three seasons ago, with mostly new players except for Reggie Wayne), so we know he's got the arm. But Brady is a guy we've never seen throw to anyone who isn't a Patriot, since he's skipped out on the last 7 or so Pro Bowl's that he's been invited to.
According to CNN, Hernandez is being investigated for two murders that happened in Boston in 2012.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/27/us/nfl-hernandez/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/27/us/nfl-hernandez/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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Tebow is consistent. He can't throw in any game.
He's shown flashes of talent. The Broncos beat the Vikings and the Steelers in large part because of how well he threw those games, and he managed to throw respectably during "Tebow time". If he learns to do that all the time, there's no reason why he can't have success in the league.
I'm sorry, but if you were trying to make a point, you failed miserably. Sure there were better examples, but you picked really poor ones to try and stay with the names people would recognize. Let's look:
So your example is...what? That he was a dink with the Bengals, but fine with New England? No problems I'm aware of there, and won a ring his first year. Worst example you could have picked, as he's the type of player they've been chasing since. Problem with other team, came to the Patriots and 'saw the light', model citizen in New England. Every reclamation project since has been trying to recapture that success.
Not really an example of a Patriot at all, was he? Played in what, a couple games max? And they cut him for being a lazy slob, which is kinda the opposite of your example.
Again, what are you trying to show? Right up until his expiring contract made him a bit crazy/selfish, he was a model citizen here. Nothing I'm aware of for problems, and great on the field. Weird that you're actually listing some of the Pats' better redemption stories to try and damn them
Finally got one, although a bit obvious. While there's plenty of undesirable parts of his past that could have been a warning, that's true of a LOT of NFL players. If you're suggesting anyone should have known he'd murder someone...? Up until this shitshow, looked like he'd put some of that behind him, but more coming out now suggests that maybe not as behind him as we thought. Sad, especially given his talent. And even then, Pats cut him before convicted of anything, and without considering that it would have been better cap-wise to wait and fight the bonus money first, so even in the best example, there's still some of the principle you're telling us doesn't exist. Would have been just as easy to suspend him and let it play out, they cut him 90 minutes after he was arrested, and turned him away earlier in the week when he tried to show up and practice.
Now you're just desperate and ran out of names/ideas. Even your example of why he shows how the Patriots Way doesn't exist just lists his good qualities
May suck as a QB, but pretty much the shining example of the rest. Also, since he's been on the team like 3 weeks and never played a game, pretty lazy to even mention him. Media distraction is a low bar, and even then, MUCH less of one than when he was on the Jets' roster.No, they like to make fun of the Jets because they suck, are horribly coached and managed, and they run their fucking mouths about being the best, going to beat everyone, etc. while ass-fumbling their way to a middling record every year. If you do nothing but talk shit constantly, and can't back ANY of it up, not going to be thought of well. Their own fault, maybe just STFU until they actually accomplish something?
And yeah, Belichick hates the Jets, has some personal stakes there. And definitely seems to enjoy taking players the Jets can't figure out and showing them what they missed out on, just to tweak the Jets. Danny Woodhead being the most recent example. Maybe Tebow will turn into something, maybe Belichick just took him in to tweak the Jets, or maybe he's just competing for a 3rd QB spot and you're making too big a deal out of it for someone who won't be on the gameday roster. Or the Pats will turn him into a crazy-good TE or RB or something off the wall like that, and show everyone that Tebow is just fine, but they were using him wrong
But probably just the 3rd QB thing, if he makes the final roster at all...In general, yeah the Patriots' Way thing IS a little nonsense, and media-created, but you showed with the examples you picked that there really aren't many incidents to pick from, and you went back a decade to try and find some. I mean, you could have found a few minor things, but they were to bit-players that no one really knows, so don't make the splash you wanted.
You'd have had a better argument if you tried to pick on the Florida players that the Pats have signed lately. Media made a big deal about the Urban Myers connection to the Pats, and how great they were doing there, but in the past few drafts there, we got:
-Chad Jackson: complete bust
-Jermaine Cunningham: PED suspension last year, otherwise was his first decent year since we got him, likely bust
-Aaron Hernandez: murder, cut
- Brandon Spikes: Pretty good player, but PED suspension and had his dick out on a ChatRoulette incident
Maybe Florida players are our problem?
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Only other examples I can come up with, but could have mentioned:
-Alfonzo Dennard. Pre-draft incident where he got into a scuffle with a cop, apparently. Ended up with community service, I think, and it was before he was drafted. Main reason he was drafted in the 7th round vice being a 3rd rounder or so as projected.
-I think Talib had issues a few years back, when he was with the Bucs. Kept his head down with the Pats so far, and they only gave him a 1-year "show me" type contract to see if he can keep doing it.
-There was a special teams guy a few years back that got busted for selling pot out of his car. Forget who, but was a fringe-type player, and was cut.
-Think Kevin Faulk got popped for smoking weed at a concert a while back. Was away from the team while rehabbing an injury (his knee, maybe?).
That's really about all I can think of off the top of my head. that it's that short a list, and minor stuff, is already an improvement over most teams. Something like 35 NFL arrests over the 2013 off-season (only 20-something unique players, though, that one idiot got arrested like 3 times in a day or so!). Players come from some rough backgrounds (violence or just poor), so can be tough to plop them in a situation where they get rewarded for it with more money than they can handle, seedy elements around them, and then need to turn the violence on and off at game time.
Patriots certainly aren't saints, but think they do better than most at keeping their heads down. As they've gotten further and further away from a Superbowl ring, and keep looking at the window for Brady and Belichick getting smaller and smaller, they've been straying a little from their principles at times to try and get another ring. Means taking more chances on character guys because they have the big game skills, drafting guys that slipped because of it, or trying to make reclaimation projects out of guys with problems, hoping a short contract and change of scenery will pull them through. Had SOME success with that, but it's not perfect.
And like I said, one of the bigger pieces of that media-created Patriots Way thing is just not running your mouth, letting your play speak for itself. They don't trash talk, they don't do a lot of media interviews, and frankly sound like programmed robots when they do. 'One game at a time, do what I can to help the team, etc.'
Much of this really came around when they had guys like Vrabel, Bruschi, and McGinest on the team. THOSE were the kinds of players they are thinking of when they spout off about this myth. Some of that ethic is still there, but not as strong as it was then.
-Alfonzo Dennard. Pre-draft incident where he got into a scuffle with a cop, apparently. Ended up with community service, I think, and it was before he was drafted. Main reason he was drafted in the 7th round vice being a 3rd rounder or so as projected.
-I think Talib had issues a few years back, when he was with the Bucs. Kept his head down with the Pats so far, and they only gave him a 1-year "show me" type contract to see if he can keep doing it.
-There was a special teams guy a few years back that got busted for selling pot out of his car. Forget who, but was a fringe-type player, and was cut.
-Think Kevin Faulk got popped for smoking weed at a concert a while back. Was away from the team while rehabbing an injury (his knee, maybe?).
That's really about all I can think of off the top of my head. that it's that short a list, and minor stuff, is already an improvement over most teams. Something like 35 NFL arrests over the 2013 off-season (only 20-something unique players, though, that one idiot got arrested like 3 times in a day or so!). Players come from some rough backgrounds (violence or just poor), so can be tough to plop them in a situation where they get rewarded for it with more money than they can handle, seedy elements around them, and then need to turn the violence on and off at game time.
Patriots certainly aren't saints, but think they do better than most at keeping their heads down. As they've gotten further and further away from a Superbowl ring, and keep looking at the window for Brady and Belichick getting smaller and smaller, they've been straying a little from their principles at times to try and get another ring. Means taking more chances on character guys because they have the big game skills, drafting guys that slipped because of it, or trying to make reclaimation projects out of guys with problems, hoping a short contract and change of scenery will pull them through. Had SOME success with that, but it's not perfect.
And like I said, one of the bigger pieces of that media-created Patriots Way thing is just not running your mouth, letting your play speak for itself. They don't trash talk, they don't do a lot of media interviews, and frankly sound like programmed robots when they do. 'One game at a time, do what I can to help the team, etc.'
Much of this really came around when they had guys like Vrabel, Bruschi, and McGinest on the team. THOSE were the kinds of players they are thinking of when they spout off about this myth. Some of that ethic is still there, but not as strong as it was then.
I'm sorry, but if you were trying to make a point, you failed miserably. Sure there were better examples, but you picked really poor ones to try and stay with the names people would recognize. Let's look:
So your example is...what? That he was a dink with the Bengals, but fine with New England? No problems I'm aware of there, and won a ring his first year. Worst example you could have picked, as he's the type of player they've been chasing since. Problem with other team, came to the Patriots and 'saw the light', model citizen in New England. Every reclamation project since has been trying to recapture that success.
Not really an example of a Patriot at all, was he? Played in what, a couple games max? And they cut him for being a lazy slob, which is kinda the opposite of your example.
Again, what are you trying to show? Right up until his expiring contract made him a bit crazy/selfish, he was a model citizen here. Nothing I'm aware of for problems, and great on the field. Weird that you're actually listing some of the Pats' better redemption stories to try and damn them
Finally got one, although a bit obvious. While there's plenty of undesirable parts of his past that could have been a warning, that's true of a LOT of NFL players. If you're suggesting anyone should have known he'd murder someone...? Up until this shitshow, looked like he'd put some of that behind him, but more coming out now suggests that maybe not as behind him as we thought. Sad, especially given his talent. And even then, Pats cut him before convicted of anything, and without considering that it would have been better cap-wise to wait and fight the bonus money first, so even in the best example, there's still some of the principle you're telling us doesn't exist. Would have been just as easy to suspend him and let it play out, they cut him 90 minutes after he was arrested, and turned him away earlier in the week when he tried to show up and practice.
Now you're just desperate and ran out of names/ideas. Even your example of why he shows how the Patriots Way doesn't exist just lists his good qualities
No, they like to make fun of the Jets because they suck, are horribly coached and managed, and they run their fucking mouths about being the best, going to beat everyone, etc. while ass-fumbling their way to a middling record every year. If you do nothing but talk shit constantly, and can't back ANY of it up, not going to be thought of well. Their own fault, maybe just STFU until they actually accomplish something?
And yeah, Belichick hates the Jets, has some personal stakes there. And definitely seems to enjoy taking players the Jets can't figure out and showing them what they missed out on, just to tweak the Jets. Danny Woodhead being the most recent example. Maybe Tebow will turn into something, maybe Belichick just took him in to tweak the Jets, or maybe he's just competing for a 3rd QB spot and you're making too big a deal out of it for someone who won't be on the gameday roster. Or the Pats will turn him into a crazy-good TE or RB or something off the wall like that, and show everyone that Tebow is just fine, but they were using him wrong
In general, yeah the Patriots' Way thing IS a little nonsense, and media-created, but you showed with the examples you picked that there really aren't many incidents to pick from, and you went back a decade to try and find some. I mean, you could have found a few minor things, but they were to bit-players that no one really knows, so don't make the splash you wanted.
You'd have had a better argument if you tried to pick on the Florida players that the Pats have signed lately. Media made a big deal about the Urban Myers connection to the Pats, and how great they were doing there, but in the past few drafts there, we got:
-Chad Jackson: complete bust
-Jermaine Cunningham: PED suspension last year, otherwise was his first decent year since we got him, likely bust
-Aaron Hernandez: murder, cut
- Brandon Spikes: Pretty good player, but PED suspension and had his dick out on a ChatRoulette incident
Maybe Florida players are our problem?
Wow. Relax. The things you are arguing with me about are things I already agree with you about. I'm talking about the media image that ESPN tries to cram down our throat. What you perceive as a knock to your beloved Patriots was in fact a knock on the media. In fact if you dig deep what you will see is a compliment to the organization.
The media consistently praises the organization for getting hard working stand up guys that for the most part stay out of trouble which make the Patriots this model franchise. They lambast the Jets for being a media circus for signing Tebow but somehow its ok with the Patriots. The only thing I am saying is that this myth of getting hard working blue collar players that keep their nose clean simply isn't true. Hoodie and Kraft don't give a shit about character or the baggage the player brings to a team. (THAT IS A GOOD THING) They care about filling key spaces. All of the players I listed above have a prior history of being a distraction, lack of work ethic or simply being a diva. Belichick has the ability to look past that stuff and revive a players career. The only one that he really couldn't fix was Haynesworth.
List revisited.
Dillon: Revived career and helped the team win a Super Bowl. Off-field and clubhouse issues were nonexistent with the Patriots.
Moss: Labeled a diva on other teams but was a large part of the Patriots season that almost would have been perfect sans helmet catch by Tyree. He had a setback at the end but the Patriots didn't cater to him so he was gone.
Tebow: Remains to be seen.
Haynesworth: The guy is just lazy. Didn't really work out. No fault of the Patriots.
Hernandez: Prior issues but became a huge weapon for Brady in recent years. He was cut (no-brainer)
The only thing I am saying is that there is this myth that the Patriots set themselves apart from the other teams in the NFL by having these lofty standards when the real key to their success is the best head coach and QB in the game. The "Patriot Way" isn't a team full of Reggie White's. It is a team full of players that get a second chance with a coach that knows how to fit them into a position where they will be successful.
It's possible I presented this badly but it's also possible you had a knee jerk reaction to somebody "bad mouthing" your team. The high praise for the Patriots by the media is well deserved but often misrepresentative of what exactly it is that makes them a perennial contender. There is a "Patriot Way" it's just evolved past that of the Super Bowl teams of the mid 2000's.
Well I don't always root for them but they are usually pretty good TV. I like to watch the greats in sports and Brady definitely qualifies. Football in general is going to miss Brady and Manning when they are gone.
I'm a Cowboys fan and I would saw off my left arm to have a GM/HC combo like Kraft/Belichick.
No one's heated, don't try and paint me as emotional to cover the fact that you presented a bad argument.
I just refuted the examples you were using, since they were, you know, bad examples...So why counter-point my 'argument' with you again? Just to violently agree? We're in agreement, don't take more shots at me doing it...
Absolutely agree it was a media-driven thing. Will argue that the Pats tend to keep their noses cleaner than most, but they aren't saints. Tough people playing a violent game. In general, you DO read about the Pats less than a lot of other teams in the court news, though. They aren't absent completely, though. Happens to every team, even if 52 of the 53 guys on the roster are at bible camp all spring, there will be one idiot at a club or with an illegal gun somewhere. It's that kind of culture that a lot of players come from...
Jets are a joke, what do you expect? And when they do nothing but run their mouths, they reap what they sow there. They let the 3rd string QB become a media circus and talk to the press constantly. Do you see the press getting constant access to him in New England? They tried to make it a big deal for a while, and the Pats just kinda shut it down. He's not holding court here...
which i said, agreed with, and provided better examples of that you missed...
That doesn't really agrue against the Patriots Way thing you're disputing, though. Those are mostly examples of players being a problem elsewhere, and then through change of scenery, coaching, or locker room presence, were turned into quiet and productive players. Which is closer to Patriots Way than not. Nonsense, just pointing out you used terrible examples is all.
Without requoting it all, what's your *new* point? The writeups got better, but it just shows that they were bad or distractions before, but mostly behaved or performed better in New England. What are you trying to show? I don't get it. If you wanted it to say what you think it does, you needed to list the Pats' OWN bad apples, not the guys that screwed up before getting a 2nd (or more) chance with the Pats. Like the list I gave you...
QB/Coach really is the big key. So many of the Qbs in the league are TERRIBLE, and make STUPID decisions. The coaches are even worse. The biggest part of the Pats' successful strategy is usually just to try and play it straight and wait for the other team to screw up or make a bad decision, and then take advantage of it. You don't have to be great to win in this league; all you have to do is wait for the other team to shoot themselves in the foot, and then be ready to take advantage. happens all the time.
yes, which is the reason I commented, and showed you why. Your examples torpedo your point, mostly. You fixed them, but they still don't say what you're trying to get them to.
You WANT that part to be true, but it really wasn't some homer reaction, just pointing out that while your main premise is mostly true, everything you used to try and show it said the opposite of what you wanted them to, and actually argued against your point. Not heated or emotional here, despite your trying to paint me that way. Just disputing what you said.
The murder thing stands on its own, and nowhere to really lay blame there except Hernandez. Don't think 31 other teams passed because they knew he'd murder someone (and then try and cover it up like a 3rd grader), just an idiot making an idiotic, thuggish decision. Disappointing to say the least.
no arguemnt there. HOF Quarterback and Head Coach, strong middle class of players vice a few superstars and then scrubs (to mitigate injury, in part), and try not to do anything stupid, be ready to pounce on the other team when they eventually DO something stupid. Pretty much the keys to winning in the NFL.
Man I didn't take any shots at you I just elaborated on a post because you seemed to get really defensive about the Pats real fast. All I was trying to do was separate criticism of the Patriots and the media. You keep claiming I'm not making my premise clear. I don't even know what to say at this point. The players I listed are indicative of what I believe to be the real strength of the franchise (except Haynesworth). You provided good examples as well. They have the ability to get more out of a player than most other franchises. Thats it. It doesn't go any deeper than that. I'm really struggling to understand what your problem is at this point. There isn't any "new point" I'm trying to make. My second post was just an attempt to spell it out. We cool?
Nope, just attempted to brush off my (correct) criticism of your post as the kneejerk reactions of a hysterical fan rather than address my actual point (which was that you picked crap examples and had a faulty premise).
Again, not defensive, not emotional, just picking apart your bad examples. You keep trying to dismiss me by stating that you're just being all logical and rational whereas i'm the emotional fanboy. THAT'S the only point we're having a problem on
Which i'm on board with, agreed with you, yet you keep snapping back to that like we're arguing it. Agree, and even supplemented it.
Because that's the opposite of what you said when you started. See?
Unless I'm completely missing what you said, you were trying to show a list of selfish Pats players 'playing the wrong way', and that the 'patriots way' nonsense that the media spews doesn't have any basis in reality. While it IS mostly nonsense, you listed players that were bad for other teams, then behaved with the Pats. Or barely played for the Pats at all. Or in Tebow's case, has been there for like 2 practices and was a non-story, so i don't get his inclusion at all. That was really my only point. Aside from Haynesworth, who was cut for being a fat slob pretty quickly, those examples DON'T show that at all. Tebow hasn't played a snap for the Pats, not sure why you'd even bother to include him at all, you were just short on names I guess...
Just that you were trying to make some point similar to 'Christianity is full of thugs', and then tried to use Mother Theresa and Jesus as your examples
Not by any stretch saying the Pats are like that, just highlighting how badly your examples supported your point is all. As long as you just address what I'm actually saying instead of trying to handwave it away as hysterical fanboy defensive nonsense, we don't have any problems. If you want to debate what I'm ACTUALLY saying, we can do that, though. But like I said, you're mostly just violently agreeing with me, except for the examples you keep trying to force that just don't work
Passive agressive smilies aside, you are greatly sensationalizing my comments. How are my examples bad? They are players that were bad eggs on other teams but were productive with the Patriots. That is my point! They are perfect examples of my premise. My whole point is that the "Patriot Way" does not equate to only drafting RKG's (Right Kind of Guy's) as the media would have us believe. The "Patriot Way" as of the last 5 years or so has been to draft needs over "flashy" players and give a second chance to previously troubled players that are nonetheless extremely talented. Just about everybody I listed fits that category. Granted we have no idea what the Tebow situation is going to end up being. I'm not violently agreeing with you. I made a post. You made a rude and condescending response which caused me to elaborate. I'm not arguing with anybody. I'm trying to explain myself to you and even acknowledged my initial post didn't clearly outline my premise. You seem to want to nail me to the cross over this for some reason. Yes, my initial thought was that you were being somewhat of an emotional homer but that was mainly due to the hostility displayed in the way you responded to my first post. I sincerely apologize to you if I am mistaken.
"passive aggressive", "rude and condescending", "emotional homer", and "hostility". It's an interesting apology...
For what feels like the 4th or 5th time now: I agree with the general point you've worked towards, just disagreed with your INITIAL post (which I keep posting), and the examples that ended up saying the opposite of what you were trying to say (IMO). I can't find the energy to quote them again and make the same case. I agree with what you are saying NOW, just not what you said originally. You just keep beating me into repeating why the examples didn't work. Whatever, I can't deal with the examples again and say it much differently, so either you'll get there, or not, not much else to say.
BTW, not sure you can accuse someone of greatly sensationalizing comments AND trying to nail you to the cross (on a BBS!) in the same post and have it be credible. Was that really what I was doing, or were you sensationalizing?
Anyway, moving on...
For what feels like the 4th or 5th time now: I agree with the general point you've worked towards, just disagreed with your INITIAL post (which I keep posting), and the examples that ended up saying the opposite of what you were trying to say (IMO). I can't find the energy to quote them again and make the same case. I agree with what you are saying NOW, just not what you said originally. You just keep beating me into repeating why the examples didn't work. Whatever, I can't deal with the examples again and say it much differently, so either you'll get there, or not, not much else to say.
BTW, not sure you can accuse someone of greatly sensationalizing comments AND trying to nail you to the cross (on a BBS!) in the same post and have it be credible. Was that really what I was doing, or were you sensationalizing?
Anyway, moving on...
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