Next Romulan War Book

[F. King Daniel]

The aborted Enterprise-era movie Star Trek: The Beginning was going to introduce the United Earth Space Navy, the local-space military (full of fighter pilots like Tiberius Chase) which was set to merge with Starfleet. As a fleet of small fighters, they wouldn't have been equipped to fight in deep space.

I like the idea that there may even be rival space exploration organizations on Earth in the 22nd century. It always annoyed me how overly American Enterprise-era Starfleet was. It flew in the face of Gene Rodenberry's "united humanity" future (which JJ got 100% right in STXI and I love him for it) and replaced it with "America did everything!", even editing Russias contibutions to spaceflight out of the intro montage. If various world powers were still competing in a (deep) space race, it could almost be justified.

Shame that was never the intentions of the showrunners or producers.

 

[BrotherBenny]

It is entirely possible that although Earth was united, America managed to get themselves back on their feet faster and therefore took the lead in shipbuilding. I'm assuming that the Enterprise was built in the San Francisco orbital shipyards? Was Utopia Planitia being built at this stage and became fully operational during the Earth-Romulan war, thereby allowing Earth Starfleet to build more ships quickly.

My question, where the hell did they get all the metal from?

 

[T'Girl]

They can also suggest that Earth had its own separate, pure-military fleet, distinct from Starfleet. ... who's to say that Earth didn't have another fleet of its own?

That was seemingly suggested that Earth didn't have another fleet by the Xindi thing. If Earth had had a military fleet, surely that would have been sent to find the Xindi?

You don't just build and maintain a fleet of warships for which there is no use or need.

Partly through the action of the Vulcan, Human had no real idea about the conditions in the galaxy immediately around Earth. The Enterprise NX was initially unarmed, it's guns were disassembled and boxed. JB2005 is right, if Earth had possessed warships, regardless of number, a portion of them would have been sent with the Enterprise (or instead of it) into the expanse.

The United States only granted them independence after occupying them for decades and waging war against, in violation of the native independence movement that had its own elected government and constitution.

And by "native independence movement" you mean the Katipuneros revolutionary organization, the president of which was Emilio Aguinaldo? Originally the leader of the organization was Andrés Bonifacio, however Emilio Aguinaldo wrestled power away from him in March 1897, on May 10, 1897 President Aguinaldo had his former rival executed.

Let's take a look at El Presidente. the man you would have had America turned the Philippines over to.

On December 14, 1897, after Spanish force drove them into the mountains, President Aguinaldo agreed to end revolutionary hostilities in exchange for his personal freedom, amnesty and $800,000. The "President" left the Philippines to live in Hong Kong.

In May 1898, Aguinaldo was transported by the American Navy back to the Philippines to resume revolutionary activities against the Spaniards.

On June 2, 1898 Aguinaldo declared war on the United States.

On June 12. 1898 he declare independence from Spain, given that American and Filipino forces had already accomplished this, quite the daring move on his part.

On June 18, 1898 he form a dictatorial government.

On June 23, 1898 he form a revolutionary government.
After his first two political cabinets collapsed, the President simply ruled by decree.
His first appoint Prime Minister attempted to stop the drafting of a constitution.

On December 10, 1898 The islands are transferred from Spain to America.

On January 21, 1899 he form the First Philippine Republic and/or Philippine Republic and/or Malolos Republic government.

February 4, 1899 is considered the beginning of the Philippine-American War
President Aguialdo's government very shortly ran away to the northern most section of the islands.

Antonio Luna was a Filipino pharmacist and revolutionary organization general, he was also a political rival in the revolutionary power structure and a threat to the President's personal power, so on June 5, 1899 Aguinaldo had him killed at a Catholic convert.

Emilio Aguinaldo was capture by a combined Philippine and American force on March 23, 1901. In exchange for his personal freedom, Aguinaldo pledged allegiance to America on April 1, 1901, formally ending the First Republic.

In 1935, he ran for President of the Commonwealth of the Philippines and lost by a landslide.

Seriously Sci? This is who you think should have been running the Philippines instead of the United States? As far as I can see, while Emilio Aguinaldo was elected within his little revolutionary organization, when was he ever elected by the Philippine people?

For that matter, when were any of the revolutionary governments elected?

And a casual purview of history would reveal that it was the Filipino nationalists participating in the U.S.-imposed insular government who started the U.S. down the road towards Filipino independence

Are you referring to the US congressional Tydings–McDuffie Act (Philippine Independence Act; Public Law 73-127) of March 24, 1934?

 

[Angstromdweller]

Surely if they'll name something after a monster like McKinley, it's quite benign to name something after someone as benevolent as Obama.

What could that poor mountain possibly have done to deserve such harsh words?

I take it you were joking, but I always thought that McKinley Station was named after Mount McKinley, unless that was named after some American politician years ago.

Yes, I always assumed that it was named after the mountain as well, until now. I had no idea that it is named after a president. It was a stab at my own ignorance.

^ That was seemingly suggested that Earth didn't have another fleet by the Xindi thing. If Earth had had a military fleet, surely that would have been sent to find the Xindi?

What about the Starfleet ships in "The Expanse" and "Storm Front, part II"?

The aborted Enterprise-era movie Star Trek: The Beginning was going to introduce the United Earth Space Navy, the local-space military (full of fighter pilots like Tiberius Chase) which was set to merge with Starfleet. As a fleet of small fighters, they wouldn't have been equipped to fight in deep space.

I like the idea that there may even be rival space exploration organizations on Earth in the 22nd century. It always annoyed me how overly American Enterprise-era Starfleet was. It flew in the face of Gene Rodenberry's "united humanity" future (which JJ got 100% right in STXI and I love him for it) and replaced it with "America did everything!", even editing Russias contibutions to spaceflight out of the intro montage. If various world powers were still competing in a (deep) space race, it could almost be justified.

Shame that was never the intentions of the showrunners or producers.

It is funny that the BBC show Hyperdrive takes place in the same time period 2151-2152. The idea that every nation still had their own space program was quite pronounced in that show. It would be quite interesting to see a version with Enterprise NX-01 and HMS Camden Lock in the same universe!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ That was seemingly suggested that Earth didn't have another fleet by the Xindi thing. If Earth had had a military fleet, surely that would have been sent to find the Xindi?

Maybe Earth's own ships simply could not withstand (or even reach) the Expanse.

 

[Cicero]

What could that poor mountain possibly have done to deserve such harsh words?

I take it you were joking, but I always thought that McKinley Station was named after Mount McKinley, unless that was named after some American politician years ago.

Yes, I always assumed that it was named after the mountain as well, until now. I had no idea that it is named after a president. It was a stab at my own ignorance.

^ That was seemingly suggested that Earth didn't have another fleet by the Xindi thing. If Earth had had a military fleet, surely that would have been sent to find the Xindi?

What about the Starfleet ships in "The Expanse" and "Storm Front, part II"?

The aborted Enterprise-era movie Star Trek: The Beginning was going to introduce the United Earth Space Navy, the local-space military (full of fighter pilots like Tiberius Chase) which was set to merge with Starfleet. As a fleet of small fighters, they wouldn't have been equipped to fight in deep space.

I like the idea that there may even be rival space exploration organizations on Earth in the 22nd century. It always annoyed me how overly American Enterprise-era Starfleet was. It flew in the face of Gene Rodenberry's "united humanity" future (which JJ got 100% right in STXI and I love him for it) and replaced it with "America did everything!", even editing Russias contibutions to spaceflight out of the intro montage. If various world powers were still competing in a (deep) space race, it could almost be justified.

Shame that was never the intentions of the showrunners or producers.

It is funny that the BBC show Hyperdrive takes place in the same time period 2151-2152. The idea that every nation still had their own space program was quite pronounced in that show. It would be quite interesting to see a version with Enterprise NX-01 and HMS Camden Lock in the same universe!

Ships like HMS Lord Nelson, HMS New Zealand, VK Velikan, and VK Uri Gagarin, shown in a list of "all Earth deep-space launches from 2123 until 2190 with destination in or near the Ficus sector" in "Up The Long Ladder" would seem to support the idea of independent space fleets at least as late as 2123.

^ That was seemingly suggested that Earth didn't have another fleet by the Xindi thing. If Earth had had a military fleet, surely that would have been sent to find the Xindi?

Maybe Earth's own ships simply could not withstand (or even reach) the Expanse.

That's a good point. If Earth ships didn't surpass warp 2 until 2243, and didn't reach warp 3 until 2144, it's entirely possible that, even if Earth's fleet was fairly large, few of its ships would have been capable of significant speed. (The fleet might have large, depending on the number of colonies and trade routes it might have needed to protect; we know that United Earth controlled at least four star systems: Vega, Alpha/Proxima Centauri, Deneva, and Sol.) Even if most Earth ships were capable of warp 4.5, Enterprise would still be more than half again faster. If the usual top speed were warp 4, Enterprise would be well more than twice as fast.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

They were doing fine in the opening shots of Homefront. Thats one thing I never agreed on with Enterprise with Earth being practically defenseless.

The People of Earth know about the Nausicaans, they know about the Vulcans even though they are friendly in their own way, and I bet that many of the Earth freighters that plowed the spacelanes encountered other hostile or potentially hostile species.

Also, the US Navy was building a mass of amount of ships from 1938 on wards primarily modernizing the fleet and replacing the ones that were transferred to the UK and other allied powers. Yet, the majority of this buildup was on the east coast in preparation to fight Hitler rather than Tojo.

Since Earth has been threatened and attacked during the Enterprise's run, it would be a natural thing for Earth to have a large fleet build up that would face the Romulans to force a long drawn out war, not NX class vessels being destroyed as quickly as Mayweather gets his hands on them and Daedalus-class vessels being turned out in the cookie cutters. At least there should be more types of Earth ships fighting the war rather than TWO, Intrepid doesnt count because it only fights in one battle.

Anyways, on the next Romulan book, the author should do away trying to force parallelisms between the Earth-Romulan War and the current Iraq War. There is no parallels. In fact there is no parallels with World War II. So make it original.

 

[Sci]

Seriously Sci? This is who you think should have been running the Philippines instead of the United States?

It would be more accurate to say that I don't think the United States should have been running the Philippines, period. The Philippines belonged to the Filipino people, not the U.S. (whatever some intra-colonialist treaty might say), and the U.S. should have let the Filipino people decide their own fate.

Period.

If that means an asshole ends up running the place? That's their choice, that's their problem. Foreigners have no business making the decision for them.

And a casual purview of history would reveal that it was the Filipino nationalists participating in the U.S.-imposed insular government who started the U.S. down the road towards Filipino independence

Are you referring to the US congressional Tydings–McDuffie Act (Philippine Independence Act; Public Law 73-127) of March 24, 1934?

No, I'm referring to the entire period from 1907 to 1946, when Filipino nationalists participating in the U.S. insular government constantly agitated for Filipino independence, including the resolutions consistently passed by the Philippine Assembly and, later, the Philippine Legislature; the 1916 Philippine Autonomy Act; the 1919 Filipino Declaration of Purposes; the establishment of a Filipino Commission of Independence; the 1919 Filipino independence mission to the Secretary of War; President Wilson's 1921 certification in his farewell address that the Filipino people had achieved stable governance; the 1922, 1923, 1930, 1931 1932, and the two 1933 independence missions from the Philippines that were privately financed; and of course the rejection of the 1933 Hare-Hawes-Cutting Act by the Filipino leadership in favor of aforementioned Tydings-McDuffie Act.

Seriously, even Tydings-McDuffie wouldn't have come about were it not for the Filipinos. They were the driving force on the road to their own independence, not the U.S.

 

[TerraUnam]

The Earth-Romulan War isn't about victory, it's about survival. For Earth it's about realizing that the universe is exceedingly dangerous and being aloof and alone isn't an option. It's about preparing the way for the Federation.

The Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites will have to have similar reflections.

The books aren't about space battles and massive fleets. They're fundamentally about politics. They need to show just why Earth cedes a good deal of its own sovereignty to a new interstellar government just 98 years after the discovery of warp flight and ten years after achieving global unification. Earth didn't spend very much time on its own in the Star Trek universe. That's what we're going to find out.

There's the Battle of Cheron and then there's a standstill Armistice. There's no massive victory, no grand conquest, no glorious goals. You don't even get to see the enemy. It's a rather strange war that way.

Furthermore, the Vulcans are doing their best to open a second front through a covert war.

The size of the Daedalus fleet is not a point on which the books turn.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

The size is not the point I was getting at, its the unrealistic portrayal of Earth and her struggle.

 

[T'Girl]

They need to show just why Earth cedes a good deal of its own sovereignty to a new interstellar government ... Earth didn't spend very much time on its own in the Star Trek universe.

But we already know from TOS (unless you shamelessly resort to retcon entire massive sections of dialog) that a century after the formation of the Federation, there are Earth ship, Earth bases, Earth explorations, Earth colonies, the outposts guarding the neutral zone during the TOS era are repeatedly referred to as Earth outposts, never Federation outposts.

Doesn't sound like much sovereignty was ceded.

I don't see the characters on the various series as self identifying as primarily Federation citizens. Troi is Betazed, Riker's from Alaska, Sisko from New Orleans, McCoy is southern, Dax is Trill, Spock isn't just from Vulcan. He is Vulcan. If pushed all of them would declare "Oh, well I'm a Federation citizen too." But it isn't how they primarily identify themselves. The only time Kirk says I'm from the Federation or we're from the Federation is in a official capacity, and not always then. In a social conversation Kirk will state he is from Iowa.

There's the Battle of Cheron and then there's a standstill Armistice. There's no massive victory, no grand conquest, no glorious goals.

The episode The Defector would seem to indict other wise, the Romulan's consider the outcome of the battle of Cheron to have been a great humiliation. The episode Let That Be Your Last Battlefield indicates that the planet Cheron is far distant from Earth. The episode Balance of Terror's dialog indicates that the neutral zone is far distant from Earth and the map shown during that episode show the neutral zone is very close to Romulus itself, and not close to Earth. The series Enterprise showed early Romulan attacks were relatively close to Earth.

To me that means the Romulans lost territory. The Romulans were "pushed back" from where they started - to - where they ended up. The war may not have concluded in a unconditional surrender, but the resulting treaty was defiantly in Earth's (and her allies's) favor.

And that's what usual called a victory.

Earth victory was over a enemy who were a star faring race for thousands of years, while Human had been in the same environment for only one hundred years ... there's your glory.

If the Humans and their allie pushed the Romulan back hundreds or thousands of light years into a smaller area immediately surrounding their home systems, and then made them agree to a treaty that basically force them to stay behind a big wall, while Earth and later the Federation roam freely ... there's your conquest

The size of the Daedalus fleet is not a point on which the books turn

Perhaps it should be a portant of the point, for unless the books stipulates that the Romulus are in fact a relatively small nation with a relatively small naval force, then the victory that Star Trek canon says will occurs, will be nothing but an shear act of magic.

It not enough that Earth wins, Earth has to be believable able to win.

 

[TerraUnam]

The authors themselves and the show by TNG's time have done that massive retcon you speak of. In the novel continuity the Federation starts in 2161, a point that was repeated in The Good that Men Do, Destiny: Mere Mortals and Articles of the Federation. So your entire point about the Federation is both moot and flatly contradicted by the books themselves.

The Star Charts map of the Federation which the authors use as a guide for writing shows that while Romulus is close to the Neutral Zone, so is Earth, though Earth is a good deal rimward than Romulus.

Earth and Romulus on the map are 50 light years from each other, Romulus is 5 light-years from the Neutral Zone and Earth is 20 light-years from the nearest Neutral Zone point.

If you call ceding defence and foreign affairs "not a lot" then I really want to know what your definition of "a lot" is.

Since Earth's non-NX fleet is undetermined and they are engaged in an upgrade program (Warp 5 Daedalus class), you have the makings of a manoeuvre fleet right there. The books also state that Earth and the Romulan Empire were both on a par with each other tech-wise, the first to Warp 7 getting the advantage.

Also, in Romulan culture ANY defeat would be considered a deep humiliation, particularly one that forced an armistice on the Empire, no matter what the terms therein.

The ENT books aren't going to be about massive assaults and explosions, they are going to be about backroom politics, espionage, tit-for-tat ship actions and a lot of interspecies co-operation.

 

[pookha]

They need to show just why Earth cedes a good deal of its own sovereignty to a new interstellar government ... Earth didn't spend very much time on its own in the Star Trek universe.

But we already know from TOS (unless you shamelessly resort to retcon entire massive sections of dialog) that a century after the formation of the Federation, there are Earth ship, Earth bases, Earth explorations, Earth colonies, the outposts guarding the neutral zone during the TOS era are repeatedly referred to as Earth outposts, never Federation outposts.

well gene didnt think of the federation right away so yeah all the writers and he since then have had to make this fit in with the federation
because once the federation came about (around about errand of mercy ) it is federation , federation and even things from the past are mentioned as federation.

one way to deal with the earth outposts at the neutral zone is that they were called that to honor earths main role in the romulan war.
or perhaps each of the founding races have outposts as symbolic to their roles during the war and the ones attacked just happened to be earth.

the biggest accepted retcon is that starfleet grew out of the united earth space probe agency and after or during the romulan war was recharted under the federation.

heck deep space nine even has a reference to the original starfleet charter.

 

[T'Girl]

...have done that massive retcon you speak of In the novel continuity

Oh that's right, I forgot that the various novels trump all on screen canon. My bad.

So your entire point about the Federation is both moot and flatly contradicted by the books themselves.

Just to be clear, my points are moot because my points are based upon dialog and scenes from multiple episodes in multiple series and also a map seen repeatedly on screen, and not base on things written in novels?

If you call ceding defence and foreign affairs "not a lot" then I really want to know what your definition of "a lot" is.

When a Romulan invasion force crosses the neutral zone traveling towards the planet Vulcan, among the first ships to move toward intercept are Vulcan defense vessels. Vulcan maintains it's own fleet, by extension likely other members do as well. In TUC, Spock was referred to as the Federation special envoy, while Sarek was called the Vulcan Ambassador. So there are separate Federation and Member diplomatic entities. In the episode Yesteryear, in a (very slightly) alternate ttimeline, Sarek was the Vulcan ambassador to seventeen different Member planets over the course of thirty years. In addition to sending an Ambassador to the Federation council, the Klingons also send a Ambassador separately to the planet Vulcan (Kor).

The Member planets maintain official diplomatic missions with each others planets and with foreign powers too. Meaning the Members are separate political-national states from each other and from the Federation.

The planetary members do not "cede" all defense and foreign affairs to the Federation, more likely the Federation supplements the members own effort in these areas.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Do we know yet when the next book will be coming out? Sometime next year I assume.

 

[Reanok]

In Shariel's jaws comes out October 2011.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Another good reason, like we needed one, to build the time machine

 

[Therin of Andor]

my points are moot because my points are based upon dialog and scenes from multiple episodes in multiple series and also a map seen repeatedly on screen, and not base on things written in novels?

Exactly. TOS left many things open to broad speculation, but... since this thread is about "the next Romulan war book", it needs to take into account the way the novels themselves (and other tie-ins) have chosen to interpret some of that broad tapestry of canonical factoids.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

I agree, so if someone wants to parallelism, From the Earth was portrayed, I believe the War of 1812 is the best war to parallel. Earth has very warships except for a few quality ships like the NX class going up against a very large Romulan fleet.

 

[TerraUnam]

Thanks Therin.

I only mention the Pacific War because it was a naval war. The books will follow their own path, of course.

As it is building to the Federation in 2161 and the Romulans and Humans don't actually meet, it is a very political war rather than a face-to-face war of attrition.

The Andorians, Vulcans and Tellarites may be on the sidelines now, but I wouldn't count them out just yet. Idle fleetyards and all that, but that's speculation on my part.