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News Next Arrowverse Crossover to Include Batwoman

I'm getting it from the fact that, for the initial 32+ years after Superman II's release, I never once heard anyone opine that Supes had killed Zod in that film. The first time I ever encountered the claim was only after Man of Steel's debut

Then it suggests you have not met many who saw Superman II when it was released, or did not understand clear-as-day scenes played out in front of them.


But if you and others say that you always understood the Superman II scene that way, I'll accept that as your honest interpretation. I still think it's a baffling and utterly tone-deaf misreading, but it's all yours, big guy. :)

What's lacking a particular sense is your insistence on misreading/seeing a scene was that was as clear in one person killing another as Darth Vader force-choking Ozzel and Needa to death in The Empire Strikes Back. This has nothing to do with MoS (and whatever hang-ups you have about the film). There was no (completely nonexistent) idea or on-screen implication of Zod's life being spared to face justice in a court. Superman was judge, jury and executioner as intended 38 years ago when Superman II was released. You are dragging your own problems with MoS into this to push the idea that the Reeve Superman did not kill, when that is a patently false notion unsupported by the released movie.
 
I was more annoyed and confused by Snyder’s reasoning for the scene. Mainly that Superman needed to learn the value of life by killing Zod. I don’t know about any of you, but I’ve never killed anyone and I understand the value of life. I would imagine that most of us do and murder isn’t widespread.
 
I was more annoyed and confused by Snyder’s reasoning for the scene. Mainly that Superman needed to learn the value of life by killing Zod. I don’t know about any of you, but I’ve never killed anyone and I understand the value of life. I would imagine that most of us do and murder isn’t widespread.

I agree but of course in this version you got Pa Kent telling him it might be okay to let people die to protect his secret. It's one of the reasons why I don't like the movie. They tried to hard to make Superman be as edgy as the Nolan Batman movies but that isn't Superman.

Jason
 
Man of Steel was great, to see how specifically you're wrong about whatever it is you're complaining about now please refer to any of the previous 247 iterations of this argument. :p
 
I was more annoyed and confused by Snyder’s reasoning for the scene. Mainly that Superman needed to learn the value of life by killing Zod. I don’t know about any of you, but I’ve never killed anyone and I understand the value of life. I would imagine that most of us do and murder isn’t widespread.

Oh I find it helps endlessly, I get a little bit more humane and compassionate with each life I take.

I'm starting to believe one day I'll be able to stop.
 
Currently in the comics, Kara is stronger. She doesn’t have the same restraint that Clark has forced himself into over the years and she got supercharged with yellow sun radiation during her trip to Earth.

I don't keep track of the comics, or much of anything else in the DC universe. I just find the complaints about Supergirl being the strongest character on her own show about as ludicrous as the complaints that Micheal Burnham's head is the biggest on the Discovery season two poster.

I mean, anyone going to watch a show called "Supergirl" should have a solid idea that she is going to be the strongest/best character.
 
Would it be too meta if there was an organization that patrols the multi-verse and used that logo?

That's a cool idea. Sort of Legends of Tomorrow meets Sliders.

This is why I don't think Crisis on Infinite Earths next year is going to collapse the multiverse, despite the title. There's just too much story potential in having a multiverse. Heck, what would Tom Cavanaugh do if there weren't a multitude of Wells variants anymore?

Also, part of the appeal of the multiverse idea to many viewers is that it lets them imagine that other DC series like Black Lightning, Titans, or Krypton -- or the movies -- might be parallel Earths in the multiverse. (That doesn't really work for me in most cases, but others enjoy the idea.) Whatever CoIE does on The CW couldn't affect any DC shows on other networks, let alone the movies. So if they end up saying "The multiverse is gone and there's now only Earth-1," then people couldn't pretend that the other DC shows shared the same multiverse anymore. And Berlanti Productions has a remarkable track record for indulging and satisfying fan theories, so I don't see them choosing to do that.
 
You guys are totally missing the point. The issue with Superman is not that men should be treated as superior to women. That's preposterous! The issue is that Superman should be treated as an equal to Supergirl. It's not about gender! It's about the comparison between two superheroes.
Indeed 00 there should be virtually no difference

That's exactly what happened here. Superman protected the Earth solo for more than a dozen years before Supergirl emerged, and now Clark said he thinks Kara is equally capable of protecting the Earth solo while he's off being a dad.

And come on, guys -- what greater feat of heroism is there than being a parent? It's ridiculous to say that Clark's choice to embrace fatherhood somehow makes him weak. On the contrary, it's bound to be the greatest challenge he's ever faced.

The sentiment is probably what Clark meant...but the word choice does NOT support that (or at least can easily be open to wide interpretation)

It does raise the point of why even bother bringing up physical strength to compare them. Shouldn't it basically be. "Who cares who is stronger?" Not to mention the whole idea that someone is "stronger" is such a dubious and unproven measure between individuals. Just because someone beats someone in one fight doesn't mean they will win a rematch because the conditions will never be the same.

Jason

I agree... I mean, if EITHER is distracted (like Clark can be , apparently), then the other could take advantage And considering their love for each other, they won't do anything seriously hurtful to the other.

The wording of Clark in Elseworlds is "humble bragging" -- that Kara is "stronger" . I mean, that dialogue would make sense if either one was dying , so that Clark's last words to her were super empowering. But they haven;t shown any reason why Kara would be measurably "stronger" than Clark, either physically or morally.

But i agree with alternate dialogue.... or maybe something like "There is no one else in the multiverse i would trust more to protect our home planet". he can affirm Supergirl without demeaning himself.

I can see why the dialogue to some people can legitmately sound LIKE emasucating whether intentional or not. TRUE multiculturaism/diversity would be understanding perspectives hat you don't agree with , and not simply ones that you already embrace or can easily ignore.

------

i don;t think anyone here disputes that the pregnancy is a convenient way of taking "Where is Superman?" out of the equation for 1 or 2 seasons ... I miss the "Midwestern values" type of Superman where he would wait until marraige before having sex (or at the very least being vulnerable to making Lois pregnant)... i know they threw that out the window with Superman 2, but Captain America showed you could have a "goody two shoes" that can still work.


Regarding Superman 2 and the alleged death of Zod... assuming that this clip is not edited,
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, and y'alls visual interpretation is correct, not only did Superman kill Zod, but Lois is ALSO a murderer, killing Ursa, and Non accidentally commits suicide. And again, if no editing, then they ALSO killed Luthor. At best, he was left to walk along in the arctic Cold back to civilization (without supplies, probably), or at worst, when Superman vaporizes the Fortress, Lutor is vaporized too! But since Luthor is still alive by Superman 4, and that having deadly cliffs within the Fortress is incredibly stupid, i do not at all believe Superman killed Zod in Superman 2. The deleted scenes are NOT contradictory to what is one screen.


Oh....and last comment.. i thought the crossover was fun, with lots of in jokes (even on Legends)..i am interested in what happens with the Crisis.... my prediction is that Black Lightning all takes place AFTER the merge...which will only do Earth 1 and 38...others will still be out there (though i wish they would fix Earth 2 and 3)
 
That's exactly what happened here. Superman protected the Earth solo for more than a dozen years before Supergirl emerged, and now Clark said he thinks Kara is equally capable of protecting the Earth solo while he's off being a dad.

If that was what the writers were trying to do in that scene, then I would be 1000% ok with it. But that's not how I interpreted the scene hence why I took issue with some of the dialogue. I wish the scene had conveyed what you describe!

And come on, guys -- what greater feat of heroism is there than being a parent? It's ridiculous to say that Clark's choice to embrace fatherhood somehow makes him weak. On the contrary, it's bound to be the greatest challenge he's ever faced.

Respectfully, I think that is a bit of a strawman. I don't think any of the critics of that scene have ever said that Clark becoming a father makes him weak.
 
I wonder if they’ll ever explain why there are no Kryptonians on earth-1

And where the heck Oliver keeps getting Kryptonite.
 
If that was what the writers were trying to do in that scene, then I would be 1000% ok with it. But that's not how I interpreted the scene hence why I took issue with some of the dialogue. I wish the scene had conveyed what you describe!

It did -- you're just too hung up on an overly literal reading of a single line of dialogue ("You're so much stronger than I am") and blowing it out of proportion with respect to the scene as a whole. I've been trying to get across that, considered in the context of the overall point he was trying to make (that he trusts Kara to protect Earth solo while he returns to Argo), it doesn't mean what you're reading it to mean.

And I knew this would happen. As soon as Superman uttered that line, I knew exactly what he meant, but I groaned inside because I knew some people on this BBS would completely misread it and raise a fuss over it.


Respectfully, I think that is a bit of a strawman. I don't think any of the critics of that scene have ever said that Clark becoming a father makes him weak.

As I said, it's about considering the line in the context of the point he was actually making. Praising Kara's strength was not the actual point of the conversation; it was just leading up to the point, which was that he was hanging up his cape to become a dad. The reason people are having a problem with that line is that they're taking it out of context and missing the actual point of the scene.
 
Shifting to a different topic (since I feel like I've debated the "did Supergirl nerf Superman" topic to death at this point), I am seeing internet rumors that the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover could be used to merge the TV and Movie DCEU. I am very skeptical. I just don't see WB wanting to do that. But it would certainly be very cool to see the movie Flash make a cameo or even get Henry Cavill to do a cameo as the movie Superman. If they don't merge the two universes (highly doubt it), the crossover could at least be an opportunity to get really crazy and have all kinds of fun cameos like movie Flash, Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman, Cavill's Superman, Smallville's Superman, etc...
 
Shifting to a different topic (since I feel like I've debated the "did Supergirl nerf Superman" topic to death at this point), I am seeing internet rumors that the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover could be used to merge the TV and Movie DCEU. I am very skeptical. I just don't see WB wanting to do that. But it would certainly be very cool to see the movie Flash make a cameo or even get Henry Cavill to do a cameo as the movie Superman. If they don't merge the two universes (highly doubt it), the crossover could at least be an opportunity to get really crazy and have all kinds of fun cameos like movie Flash, Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman, Cavill's Superman, Smallville's Superman, etc..., some of the movie starts could appear
It would be fun.... if Henry Cavill actually leaves...and they give up on the Flash movie, and they drop Ben Afleck... this could work. If the DCFU worked with DCTV from the first Arrow show, it could EASILY have been integrated


At the very least NOW the DCFU could appear...maybe deal with the Crsis on their Earth as a cameo.... it would e a good plug for WW1984 (and keep Aquaman fresh)
 
Shifting to a different topic (since I feel like I've debated the "did Supergirl nerf Superman" topic to death at this point), I am seeing internet rumors that the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover could be used to merge the TV and Movie DCEU. I am very skeptical.

Wow, yeah. I doubt Warner Bros.' movie and TV divisions get along any better than Marvel's do. Movie studios are these big juggernauts that consider TV to be beneath them, even when they're arms of the same corporation working with the same intellectual property (Disney Star Wars being a rare exception). And the Marvel movies and shows are supposed to be in the same universe, while DC doesn't have any consistent universe across its various live-action productions; the movies are one thing, the Arrowverse is another, the DC Universe streaming shows are a third, and everything else is its own standalone reality. I really doubt Crisis is going to involve any currently ongoing DC production outside of The CW.

Not to mention that The CW is a small network and I doubt the Arrowverse shows would ever have the budget to get Gal Gadot or Ezra Miller.

The impetus for these "rumors" is probably someone thinking "Well, if Cavill's leaving the DCEU, why not just promote Tyler Hoechlin to the movies?" and other people mistaking some random poster's wishful thinking for an actual plan, which is usually how dumb rumors like this get started. (And Jason Momoa's denied that Cavill's leaving.)
 
There's a difference between supportive and submissive, especially when dealing with the most iconic superhero character ever.

It was a terrific crossover, but that was a weak point, and a bunch of snowflakes can't handle that there are plenty of people who see past the political correctness.


This sort of assertion is not an admirable response to having lost a debate. You don't hold a truth here any more than anyone else does - you have an opinion.
 
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