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News Next Arrowverse Crossover to Include Batwoman

I'm not fond of the idea of profligately folding in all adaptations, because some are better than others. I mean, seriously, does anyone actually want Powerless or Superman IV to be part of the Arrowmultiverse? And as much as I love Batman '66, it was too much of a comedy/spoof to be plausible as part of the same multiverse as more serious shows.

Besides, what I like about the Arrowverse is how it folds in deserving shows that were cancelled too soon -- Constantine, the '90 Flash -- and gives them a new lease on life. More successful shows like Lois & Clark and Smallville don't need that help, and failures like Birds of Prey and Powerless don't really deserve it.


haha yes - I mean the serious versions - do we want The Flash to arrive to meet Lesley Ann Warren on the set of It's a Bird, it's a Planet, it's Superman!?

But I would advocate Lois & Clark, Smallville, the Donnerverse, Burtonverse and Wonder Woman 77 being part of the multiverse, even if it's tiny references
 
But I would advocate Lois & Clark, Smallville, the Donnerverse, Burtonverse and Wonder Woman 77 being part of the multiverse, even if it's tiny references

In order for a show to 'fit' within the Arrowverse's internal Multiverse, it has to be able to work within the rules of said Multiverse; of the series/franchises listed, only Lois and Clark and Wonder Woman fit that bill.
 
I do not understand thinking the multiverse needs to be consistent in quality, tone, or successes. Have you read DC comics? The DC Universe has always been built on wildly inconsistent tones and styles. How many 2nd tier heroes have had their solo titles cancelled multiple times? Only think keeping them alive is cameos in events.
 
If Chloe were Felicity's Earth-38 doppelganger, she wouldn't actually have a connection to Oliver because, as far as we know, he doesn't exist on Earth-38.
Well that is the whole idea of alternative histories. Things are similar but different.

If they really do have Emily play Chloe it would mostly be an Easter egg or inside reference for fans. Similar to Vandal Savage used the alias Dr Curtis Knox on an episode of Legends. That is who Dean Cain’s character on Smallville was originally written to be.
 
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But I would advocate Lois & Clark, Smallville, the Donnerverse, Burtonverse and Wonder Woman 77 being part of the multiverse, even if it's tiny references

Given the established rules for Arrowverse doppelgangers, I'm uneasy including a universe where Superman and Lois look like Jeremiah Danvers and Queen Rhea of Daxam, or one where Wonder Woman looks like President Marsdin, or one where Clark Kent doesn't look like Tyler Hoechlin. Also, it'd be hard to explain the chronological difference in when Kal-El was born and Krypton was destroyed.

Granted, incorporating '90 Flash has its problems in that regard -- a generation-earlier Barry Allen (who's a doppelganger of Earth-1 Henry Allen and Earth-3 Jay Garrick) becoming the Flash, as well as Iris West, Mirror Master, and Captain Cold existing earlier and looking different -- but there are enough direct doppelgangers (Tina, Julio, Bellows, Trickster, Prank) that the groundwork has already been laid, and the inconsistencies are few enough in number to be glossed over.


I do not understand thinking the multiverse needs to be consistent in quality, tone, or successes. Have you read DC comics? The DC Universe has always been built on wildly inconsistent tones and styles.

But we're not talking about DC Comics, we're talking about the Arrowverse. A given work of fiction needs to be true to its own ground rules, no matter what other franchises do. Internal consistency is essential to good worldbuilding and storytelling; it doesn't matter if the rules of your universe are different from reality or from other fictional universes, so long as they're logically consistent within themselves. This is especially important in fantasy; since the rules are often unrealistic and arbitrary, the only way to give them verisimilitude is to make them internally logical and apply them consistently. As I said, the Arrowverse has established a clear and consistent set of rules for how doppelgangers work in its reality -- namely, that they look like their counterparts and are the same age, but have just followed a different life path. It wouldn't be right to just cavalierly throw out those rules for the sake of a gimmicky tie-in to past shows. The priorities of fans who want references to the things they like are not at all the same as the priorities of professional storytellers who care about the integrity of their creations. Berlanti Productions certainly does plenty to blur that distinction, but not so much that it critically undermines the latter.
 
Too late for that. They change the rules of time travel whenever they feel like it. If they want to have Teri and Dean show up as Lois & Clark from an alternate Earth I will not complain.

The crossover shows an altered reality in which Amell plays Barry and Grant plays Oliver. Maybe that could be their hand wave explanation of how the same actors play different doppelgängers. Echoes of erased Earths cropping up on other ones.
 
^ The "altered reality" in question is Earth-1, though, so that's not the same thing as having to rewrite the established rules of the Arrowverse's internal Multiverse.

Also: the Arrowverse does not "rewrite the rules of time travel whenever they feel like it".
 
Too late for that. They change the rules of time travel whenever they feel like it.

I will never understand the logic of the argument that if a mistake has been made in the past, that somehow makes it okay to throw out all standards of quality from that point on. Making a mistake is an incentive to try to do better in the future.
 
I'm not fond of the idea of profligately folding in all adaptations, because some are better than others. I mean, seriously, does anyone actually want Powerless or Superman IV to be part of the Arrowmultiverse? And as much as I love Batman '66, it was too much of a comedy/spoof to be plausible as part of the same multiverse as more serious shows.

Besides, what I like about the Arrowverse is how it folds in deserving shows that were cancelled too soon -- Constantine, the '90 Flash -- and gives them a new lease on life. More successful shows like Lois & Clark and Smallville don't need that help, and failures like Birds of Prey and Powerless don't really deserve it.

Just because they "could" be part of the multiverse doesn't mean we have to actually see them. I think it would be cool to float the idea that all these iterations could be part of the multiverse. And it actually meshes with the comics that have included characters like Captain Carrot as legitimate multiverse characters. As for the shows you mentioned, Birds of Prey had a lot of potential in concept but the execution of the concept was lacking. I enjoyed the pilot and gave it a few episodes before giving up on it. Similarly, there is no reason that the Powerless cast couldn't appear in the Arrowverse. The fault of that show had nothing to do with the actors or the concept.
 
And it actually meshes with the comics that have included characters like Captain Carrot as legitimate multiverse characters.

As I said, a given work of fiction needs to be true to its own internal rules. The Arrowverse is not the comics. It's a world of its own inspired by the comics but not exacty duplicating them, with its own established rules and parameters that differ from its source material. The Arrowverse's Felicity Smoak or Caitlin Snow has her own established personality and backstory that would be violated if somebody abruptly started writing her like her very different comics namesake, and by the same token, the Arrowverse has its own well-established rules of doppelgangers that would be contradicted if they suddenly started counting Dean Cain's or Tom Welling's versions of Clark Kent as part of the multiverse.
 
Since the Legends of Tomorrow and Arrow both are in the Arrowverse continuity, I don't see any basis for claiming that comedies are tonal mismatches with serious subjects. There's plenty of room for both in a grand multiverse.
 
So the real question is if they tied all the universe's together then does that mean Lego Batman is yet another earth in the multi-verse?


Jason
 
Wow, look at this one:
https://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/1578/15789737/3468957-ar709b_0014b.jpg

Malcolm Merlyn, Ricardo Diaz, and someone I don't recognize as Central City cops, presumably in the altered reality where Barry and Oliver are apparently gang members.
Is this the first we've learned of John Barrowman being in Elseworlds?
I'm not positive but I think it's Samson. He originally appeared in a couple episodes of Arow Season 5, before popping back up with Brick and Bronze Tiger in this season's prison arc.
 
Is this the first we've learned of John Barrowman being in Elseworlds?

I think it's been hinted at, but not confirmed until now.


I'm not positive but I think it's Samson. He originally appeared in a couple episodes of Arow Season 5, before popping back up with Brick and Bronze Tiger in this season's prison arc.

I did some searching, and I think the middle "cop" in the image is Liam Hall, who plays Slade Wilson's son Joe. He's only been in two previous episodes, which is why I didn't recognize him.
 
I been using that name myself for awhile. So that vindication on more levels than you imagine.

Anyone able to list all the heroes we saw there? Hard to be sure if those are all residents or visitors from other Earths.
 
I been using that name myself for awhile. So that vindication on more levels than you imagine.

Anyone able to list all the heroes we saw there? Hard to be sure if those are all residents or visitors from other Earths.
I saw Firestorm, Hawkgirl’s helmet, a green arrow wearing a more comic style outfit, I think Red Tornado
 
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