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News Next Arrowverse Crossover to Include Batwoman

How 'bout something current?
Here's Titans producer Greg Walker pretty much confirming that the decisions on who they can and can't use are made by the higher-ups on a case by case basis:

The bottom line is that Warner Bros. is a company with a very weird internal corporate culture between it's many divisions which often results in decisions and policies that outwardly seem fickle, arbitrary and bordering on the arcane. One might very well have better luck determining their reasoning for allowing the use of one character over another by employing tea leaves, chicken entrails and playing a Beatles record in reverse.
 
Although that raises a question for me -- why the heck would the Penguin be in Arkham? He's not mentally ill. He's one of Batman's more level-headed and cunning adversaries. His only obsession is his desire for class and respectability.

Maybe this Cobblepot is closer to the Danny DeVito version of the character. He never seemed particularly mentally stable to me.
 
The bottom line is that Warner Bros. is a company with a very weird internal corporate culture between it's many divisions which often results in decisions and policies that outwardly seem fickle, arbitrary and bordering on the arcane. One might very well have better luck determining their reasoning for allowing the use of one character over another by employing tea leaves, chicken entrails and playing a Beatles record in reverse.
Well said.

The semantic argument that's taken up the last several pages seems kind of silly and misses the point entirely.

Whatever people choose to call it, the "policy" is definitely arcane, as you say. But what makes it so enigmatic is that it's clearly been detrimental to the brand as a whole. Going back to season fourish of Smallville (Or heck, even the later seasons of L&C.), I can't think of a single example on a DC venture where it's had a positive effect.

And that's before accounting for how artistically stifling it is - with [the loss of] Manu being the most blatant example.
 
I can't think of a single example on a DC venture where it's had a positive effect.

Take Smallville, they wanted Bruce Wayne, WB and DC said no so they used Oliver Queen instead, Green Arrow became popular on that show to the point of a solo series being green-lit and Green Arrow is now a well known name with a whole universe built around that show that both premiered live action versions and raised the profile of a bunch of other DC heroes.

Had they just went with Bruce Wayne, none of that would have happened...
 
Take Smallville, they wanted Bruce Wayne,
I've never believed this was true. Both Gough and Millar have said so.

And, aside from the obvious fact that Ollie is name-dropped in the very opening scene of the show, the character fits better within the overall arcing theme of the show in a way Bruce wouldn't have.

More importantly though, one of the defining traits of the show is how it used color, both in terms of mise en scene and thematic accent. Specifically, its use of the three primary colors set against green.
 
Well said.

The semantic argument that's taken up the last several pages seems kind of silly and misses the point entirely.

Whatever people choose to call it, the "policy" is definitely arcane, as you say. But what makes it so enigmatic is that it's clearly been detrimental to the brand as a whole. Going back to season fourish of Smallville (Or heck, even the later seasons of L&C.), I can't think of a single example on a DC venture where it's had a positive effect.

And that's before accounting for how artistically stifling it is - with [the loss of] Manu being the most blatant example.

Take Smallville, they wanted Bruce Wayne, WB and DC said no so they used Oliver Queen instead, Green Arrow became popular on that show to the point of a solo series being green-lit and Green Arrow is now a well known name with a whole universe built around that show that both premiered live action versions and raised the profile of a bunch of other DC heroes.

Had they just went with Bruce Wayne, none of that would have happened...

Honestly, you're both right. One the one hand, yes, WB's decisions with regards to character rights have been creatively detrimental to certain projects, for no good creative reason and (at best) dubious commercial reasons. But at the same time they have forced others to rethink their approach which has produced better, more creative storytelling (I recall such instances with regards to the JLU cartoon for example.)

However, those instances weren't the result of WB's benevolent wisdom, but of creative people adapting to the fickle whims of corporate overlords. So it is to the credit of the former, not the latter that they were able to make something worthwhile out of it.
 
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The thing that really bothers me, more than them not letting introduce certain characters, is when they make them just dump characters. I think once a character or group has been solidly establish on one of the series they should just let them keep using them. I'm still frustrated that they made them dump the Suicide Squad and Deathstroke.
I guess we should just be thankful they at least had the sense not to force them to cancel The Flash.
 
How 'bout something current?
Here's Titans producer Greg Walker pretty much confirming that the decisions on who they can and can't use are made by the higher-ups on a case by case basis:



(Here's the source but there's a bunch of Titans spoilers in the interview, so if you're trying to avoid those, beware.)

I'm not sure you understand what I was referring to as being outdated precedent, so let me clarify:
In the past, characters who were being used in films were totally off-limits across the board, but those embargoes have been replaced by the current policy of determining character access individually and on a case-by-case basis.
 
Presumably because he was on Earth-1 when its reality was altered. It's not that being from other Earths gives people an immunity; it's that the transformation effect only happened on Earth-1, so everyone on Earth-1 at the time was affected but nobody on other Earths was. If Kara had been on Earth-1 at the time, she would've been affected too. (And no doubt Laurel was as well.)
Yes, but then he re-wrote reality again and Kara still wasn't affected, in fact didn't Deegan make a big deal about that fact when he confronted her in the Pipeline.

That would've only confirmed that Oliver and Barry believed they were each other, and everyone already knew that. Team Flash would've just gone on believing that some villain had brainwashed them or something.
Yes, but I would assume she would have also seen their memories?

Presumably they've been in Arkham for years already (although the Joker wasn't mentioned). Remember, Gotham didn't deteriorate to its current "dead" state until after Batman left, and as a result of Batman leaving. Presumably when Batman was around, he was content to give Gordon and the GCPD the credit for his achievements.

Although that raises a question for me -- why the heck would the Penguin be in Arkham? He's not mentally ill. He's one of Batman's more level-headed and cunning adversaries. His only obsession is his desire for class and respectability.
I think the truth is that Oliver was just in denial about Batman's existence. As for the Penguin, wasn't in Arkham in a recent Batman story or animated adaption? Like you I've never considered the Penguin a lunatic, infact I see him as a bridging character between the likes of Falcone & Morone on the one hand and the Riddler etc on the other.
Something that's really bugging me is the Earth-1 people knowing of and using Kryptonite. When Ollie shot that Kryptonite arrow at Nazi-Kara, it seemed to be a one-off and as such people seemed to let it go with minimal questioning. But now its been used multiple times in the same story and Kara's 'Unless someone has Kryptonite lying around' was 'Chekov's Gun' being cocked if I ever heard one, they're going to have to explain it. I was also a little frustrated about the fate/backgrounds of Earth-1 Kara Danvers & Jimmy Olsen.
Best line of the trilogy goes to John Diggle: 'That crazy bastard just let all the other crazy bastards out!'
 
Yes, but then he re-wrote reality again and Kara still wasn't affected

Yes, she was; she was teleported into a Pipeline cell in transformed clothing, and given a new identity as a wanted criminal. She, Barry, and Oliver all remembered their real identities, so it wasn't about what Earth they came from; presumably Deegan wanted them to remember. But they all had their circumstances and their identities in the new reality transformed along with everything else.


in fact didn't Deegan make a big deal about that fact when he confronted her in the Pipeline.

Yes, about the fact that the Book of Destiny didn't contain information about her and Superman. That had nothing to do with immunity. It probably didn't contain information about Sherloque either, but he was changed along with everyone else because he was there at the time.


Yes, but I would assume she would have also seen their memories?

Yes, as I already said, Cecile's mind-reading would only confirm that they fully believed they were each other. By itself, that wouldn't prove that reality had been altered, only that their minds had been.


I think the truth is that Oliver was just in denial about Batman's existence.

It's not just Oliver, though. Early seasons of Arrow treated Oliver's vigilantism as a novel practice, and the crossover episodes have always treated the Green Arrow as the senior member of the Earth-1 hero community, the pioneer the others look up to. That only works if Batman's existence is not common knowledge. Putting him on Earth-1 at all is an imperfect retcon, and establishing him as an urban myth whose reality is not widely accepted is the only way to patch it over at all. (I still think it would've been better to put Batwoman on Earth-38, but that would've required a massively different approach to Elseworlds.)


As for the Penguin, wasn't in Arkham in a recent Batman story or animated adaption? Like you I've never considered the Penguin a lunatic, infact I see him as a bridging character between the likes of Falcone & Morone on the one hand and the Riddler etc on the other.

I don't recall anything putting Penguin in Arkham, but it's possible. Modern Batman stories have become overly enamored with Arkham to the point of sometimes putting characters there who shouldn't be. Batman: TAS was ambivalent about whether Killer Croc belonged there ("Trial") or not ("Sideshow").


Something that's really bugging me is the Earth-1 people knowing of and using Kryptonite. When Ollie shot that Kryptonite arrow at Nazi-Kara, it seemed to be a one-off and as such people seemed to let it go with minimal questioning. But now its been used multiple times in the same story and Kara's 'Unless someone has Kryptonite lying around' was 'Chekov's Gun' being cocked if I ever heard one, they're going to have to explain it.

I don't recall any kryptonite being used here except by the Green Arrow, so that merely perpetuates the existing mystery of how he got it rather than adding to it. And Kara's kryptonite crack clearly wasn't a Chekhov's Gun, because it wasn't followed up on. If anything, it was the opposite; Kara was pointing out that if Kate Kane didn't like her patrolling the city, there was nothing she could actually do about it.


I was also a little frustrated about the fate/backgrounds of Earth-1 Kara Danvers & Jimmy Olsen.

If you mean we never found out what their real lives were like, yeah, that's a lingering question. As I remarked before, it's kind of sad to think of them never meeting Kara and Clark. Alex's life was probably profoundly different with no Kara, no J'onn (presumably), and no DEO (as we know for a fact from "Invasion!"). Maybe she became a doctor instead of an agent. Jimmy might not have turned out too differently, though; if Metropolis, Lois, Perry, and the Daily Planet exist, he probably would've still had a good career as a photojournalist (although Lois might've gotten herself killed ages ago without Superman to save her from her intrepid overreaches).
 
On the whole Ollie/Batmyth thing... the writers knew going in that pretending Batman was there all along won't be the easiest fit, so they played it off as a joke about Oliver being offended at the thought that someone did his thing before him and... I'm fine with that. Continuity is nice and all, but I don't mind squinting at it here and there if a tiny retcon opens up lots of new storytelling possibilities.
 
Just realised that Asian lady says “bizarro” during the Supermen fight in the 3rd part.
Took me 4 watches to catch that. :)
 
On the whole Ollie/Batmyth thing... the writers knew going in that pretending Batman was there all along won't be the easiest fit, so they played it off as a joke about Oliver being offended at the thought that someone did his thing before him and... I'm fine with that. Continuity is nice and all, but I don't mind squinting at it here and there if a tiny retcon opens up lots of new storytelling possibilities.

It also plays off the old observation that, back in the comics, Green Arrow was once a pretty obvious knock-off of Batman, complete with an Arrow-car, an Arrow-cave, a kid sidekick, etc.

There was a great bit in a Kevin Smith comic years ago when Batman actually calls Ollie on this: "Good Lord, man, did you ever have an original thought in your life?"
 
Guessing that Kevin Smith wasn't a fan of Mike Grell and/or whomever else deciding that Ollie started before Clark and Bruce started wearing capes.
 
I don't recall anything putting Penguin in Arkham, but it's possible. Modern Batman stories have become overly enamored with Arkham to the point of sometimes putting characters there who shouldn't be. Batman: TAS was ambivalent about whether Killer Croc belonged there ("Trial") or not ("Sideshow").
Penguin does spend a fair amount of time in Akham in Gotham, but that version is a bit more unstable than he's usually presented as. He was also a resident of Arkham City in the game, but that wasn't just for the mentally ill, it was for all criminals.
 
The Penguin probably just got himself transferred to Arkham intentionally because it's easier to escape from there. ;)
 
Penguin does spend a fair amount of time in Akham in Gotham, but that version is a bit more unstable than he's usually presented as.

I take it you mean the TV show Gotham. Yeah, I only watched the first season, but even then it had some problematical portrayals of the villains -- like giving the Riddler a split personality more like Two-Face. The Riddler shouldn't be insane; on the contrary, he should be Batman's smartest, clearest-headed foe, a master gameplayer and manipulator. Traditionally, his only behavioral disorder is a compulsion to leave clues for his crimes in an attempt to prove he's smarter than Batman/the authorities.

Like I said, Arkham has become overused. Even the Batman '66 comics from DC retconned Arkham into the Adam West show's milieu, even though the original show got by just fine with Gotham State Penitentiary.
 
I take it you mean the TV show Gotham. Yeah, I only watched the first season, but even then it had some problematical portrayals of the villains -- like giving the Riddler a split personality more like Two-Face. The Riddler shouldn't be insane; on the contrary, he should be Batman's smartest, clearest-headed foe, a master gameplayer and manipulator. Traditionally, his only behavioral disorder is a compulsion to leave clues for his crimes in an attempt to prove he's smarter than Batman/the authorities.
Yeah, the whole split personality Riddler thing has been my biggest problem with Gotham.
 
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