News Next Arrowverse Crossover to Include Batwoman

[Christopher]

Maybe they aren't there because there is no Superman, he could have brought Earth-38 to the rest of that universe's attention, and without him there, nobody offworld, other than the Dominators, knows Earth-1 one exists, or at least cares enough to go there.

Except Superman's only been active there for 15-20 years, and we know there are aliens who have lived there far longer. J'onn has been here for centuries. I'm pretty sure Olivia Marsdin said she immigrated from Durla as a child, so that's probably over 50-60 years. And there was Amadei, that alien healer in "Parasite Lost," who'd had a baby with a human woman 20 years ago and had apparently already been living here for some time (though probably not as an "out" alien).


Incidentally, I'd been expecting the Arrowverse Wiki to merge with the 1990 Flash Wiki now, but it looks like there's been no effort to do that yet. I guess, strictly speaking, it was never made entirely explicit that the Barry Allen of Earth-90 was the exact same character from that show, rather than just someone who looks the same and has the same costume. After all, he didn't have time to reveal much about himself. But then, we've had just as little in the way of direct callbacks to Constantine, and that's been integrated into the Arrowverse Wiki. So maybe it's just a matter of time. It looks like they're still debating it on the talk pages.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Not only that, Kryptonians already knew about Earth - and what its sun did to them physiologically - when the El brothers sent their children away from danger.

 

[JD]

Ok, never mind then. I wasn't real clear on timeline there.

 

[Awesome Possum]

^ Not only that, Kryptonians already knew about Earth - and what its sun did to them physiologically - when the El brothers sent their children away from danger.

The Smallville mythology had Kryptonians on Earth at various points. Even in Superman The Movie, Jor-El mentioned that baby Kal would grow strong because of our sun.

 

[Phoenix219]

Maybe Earth 1 is the Universe where General Zod went back in time and saved Krypton, becoming a warlord, and the aliens are all in his Empire.


But yes, S1 of Supergirl implied that all of the aliens came from Fort Rozz; the entire alien history of Earth 38 seems to be a major retcon.

1990s Flash still has the best costume and proper face in that costume. He looks better now as the Flash then he did 30 years ago.

 

[Phoenix219]

My overall assessment of this whole event. A lot of great moments that did not add up to a coherent story. Too many characters, who pop up and disappear with no follow up. Obviously I am taking about Flash 90. But the supporting casts of each show. Finding out who Alex is really is on Earth 1 should have been teased at the end. They have time up follow up it. But I doubts they will.

Also I felt for many years DC is great at mythologizing and romanticizing the quality of their big events. Crisis on Infinite Earths is not a good story. It was a gimmick to meet a check list of company wide changes. Writer Marv Wolfman himself has said the only good thing he has to say about it is all the money he made from it.

Whatever they do will be vastly different from what the comics did. Which is good. But it means they are just selling a brand name. Both Barry and Kara were killed off in that story. It took decades to undo that damage to those characters.

Barry should have stayed dead. It was the one sacrifice in the DCU that actually *mattered.* It was by far the most interesting thing to ever happen to the character. It sparked Wally West into tier 1 stardom, with a deeper character, world, family, mythos and rogues gallery then Barry ever had. Everything that "Barry" is and has and is known for today, are all qualities developed afterward for Wally. It took decades to build and grow a deep and fantastic character, and only a year or so to tear it all down to restore "Barry", for absolutely no reason at all. There is nothing unique about modern Barry Allen in any way. Even Iris as his lightning rod and her reporter career is taken directly from Wally's soulmate, Linda Park. Zoom and Savitar were Wally's villains. Hartley was Wally's reformed friend. The Flash Museum existed as a tribute to Barry. The Speed Force was Wally's - it never existed in Barry's time. The Jay Garrick father-son relationship? Running around with a relative from the future? All Wally's stories, as well. The most interesting thing Barry Allen ever did was die.

 

[Jayson1]

Barry should have stayed dead. It was the one sacrifice in the DCU that actually *mattered.* It was by far the most interesting thing to ever happen to the character. It sparked Wally West into tier 1 stardom, with a deeper character, world, family, mythos and rogues gallery then Barry ever had. Everything that "Barry" is and has and is known for today, are all qualities developed afterward for Wally. It took decades to build and grow a deep and fantastic character, and only a year or so to tear it all down to restore "Barry", for absolutely no reason at all. There is nothing unique about modern Barry Allen in any way. Even Iris as his lightning rod and her reporter career is taken directly from Wally's soulmate, Linda Park. Zoom and Savitar were Wally's villains. Hartley was Wally's reformed friend. The Flash Museum existed as a tribute to Barry. The Speed Force was Wally's - it never existed in Barry's time. The Jay Garrick father-son relationship? Running around with a relative from the future? All Wally's stories, as well. The most interesting thing Barry Allen ever did was die.

But you then loose your main character and actor, both whom are well liked by the audience. Sometimes tv reasons are more important than canon or established lore.

Jason

 

[Christopher]

Maybe Earth 1 is the Universe where General Zod went back in time and saved Krypton, becoming a warlord, and the aliens are all in his Empire.

If you mean the timeline of the Krypton series on Syfy, that's a universe where Superman does exist on Earth in the present, as we know from Adam Strange's account.

But yes, S1 of Supergirl implied that all of the aliens came from Fort Rozz; the entire alien history of Earth 38 seems to be a major retcon.

Again, season 1 did establish that J'onn had been on Earth for centuries, so at least one alien didn't come from Fort Rozz.

1990s Flash still has the best costume and proper face in that costume. He looks better now as the Flash then he did 30 years ago.

It's a striking costume, but kind of weird-looking, and somewhat fanciful. The original was more like a prosthetic makeup appliance than a piece of clothing, and it took hours to glue Shipp into it. I prefer the costume that Grant Gustin wore prior to this season. It looked more like a functional garment.

 

[DigificWriter]

S1 of Supergirl implied that all of the aliens came from Fort Rozz

Actually, it didn't; an assumption is not an implication.

 

[dahj]

his first thought was to find Supergirl rather than to contact one of the various Wellses they know, or Jesse Quick or Jay Garrick

Supergirl makes sense because she knows both him and Oliver. I don't recall if Jesse and Jay met the GA at any point?

 

[Christopher]

Supergirl makes sense because she knows both him and Oliver. I don't recall if Jesse and Jay met the GA at any point?

Oh, that's a good point. Pretty sure Harry Wells has met Oliver in the crossovers, but without his genius, maybe he'd be of limited help.

By the way, I liked the callback to Crisis on Earth-X in part 2, when they go to Gotham. Even now that Oliver does have super-speed, Barry and Kara still get there first and have to wait for him to catch up. It's a running gag, in two senses of the word!

 

[urbandefault]

RE: Earth-90 Flash ...

It's a striking costume, but kind of weird-looking, and somewhat fanciful. The original was more like a prosthetic makeup appliance than a piece of clothing, and it took hours to glue Shipp into it. I prefer the costume that Grant Gustin wore prior to this season. It looked more like a functional garment.

The muscle base for Shipp's suit in the crossover was provided by ReevzFX. If you follow DC character cosplay, you'll be familiar with his work. If not, check him out. He's incredibly talented.

 

[Phoenix219]

But you then loose your main character and actor, both whom are well liked by the audience. Sometimes tv reasons are more important than canon or established lore.

Jason

I was talking about the comics, and the idea that it took decades to repair the "damage" done to The Flash - when it actually is post Barry that all of the most iconic Flash elements all took off, and that was all Wally. They (the tv show) cribbed most of Barry's traits from Wally to begin with. I feel that starting the show with a Barry more like the 90s show, with Gustin playing a younger "Wally" in need of pep talks, encouragement, and a team Flash.... might have worked out alright. They had an actor (they guy that played Eddy Thawn) that looked identical to comic-book blond Barry Allen right there! If they had Barry die or disappear early during Season 1, it would have worked out pretty well, with Wally (Gustin) proceeding pretty much the same way we saw on screen, with the Accelerator Explosion being the reason for Wally gaining powers just like his Uncle. They could still have him being mentored by Thawn, and have Thawn be responsible for Barry's disappearance, or have it be a greater mystery for both of them. The angst would come from trying to live up to the idealized version of Barry that he has, instead of dead parents. Linda Park would fit most of the same boxes that Iris does. Being mentored by Shipp/Garrick would still have most of the same elements, or they could have gone with Max Mercury instead. The show would be pretty similar. Thats my unique and unpopular take on things, anyways.

 

[Phoenix219]

If you mean the timeline of the Krypton series on Syfy, that's a universe where Superman does exist on Earth in the present, as we know from Adam Strange's account.

Superman *existed* in the present, before Adam failed at stopping Zod from altering the timeline. He no longer exists in the present, because Krypton never exploded. The altered timeline that exists at the moment could be what leads to a universe where Krypton never exploded, and thus, Arrowverse Earth 1.

Again, season 1 did establish that J'onn had been on Earth for centuries, so at least one alien didn't come from Fort Rozz.




It's a striking costume, but kind of weird-looking, and somewhat fanciful. The original was more like a prosthetic makeup appliance than a piece of clothing, and it took hours to glue Shipp into it. I prefer the costume that Grant Gustin wore prior to this season. It looked more like a functional garment.

As far as sheer comic book iconography, the 90s Flash is imposing. He looks like a comic book super hero. The jawline, the height, the unapologetically classic costume - I don't know, it just stands out in a totally different light than any other Arrowverse costume or look.

Actually, it didn't; an assumption is not an implication.

From what I remember, which could be inaccurate, most of the aliens-of-the-week were escaped prisoners, and the DEO was a secret organization because of not wanting to reveal all the alien threats, but you are right, I may have made some assumptions. I definitely did not get the idea that aliens were a common occurrence, and the only reason J'onn got away with it was his shapeshifting abilities.

 

[Christopher]

They cribbed most of Barry's traits from Wally to begin with.

Not the only case where that's happened. It's the nature of an adaptation of a long-running series to distill elements from throughout its run, and when you're dealing with legacy superheroes, that means elements from different bearers of the name may be combined. Batman: TAS's Dick Grayson wore Tim Drake's Robin costume and had his computer skills, and its Tim Drake was more like Jason Todd. The DCAU's Kyle Rayner had Hal Jordan's costume. The MCU's Peter Parker has aspects of Miles Morales, mainly in his social circle.

Superman *existed* in the present, before Adam failed at stopping Zod from altering the timeline. He no longer exists in the present, because Krypton never exploded. The altered timeline that exists at the moment could be what leads to a universe where Krypton never exploded, and thus, Arrowverse Earth 1.

That may work at the moment (aside from Zod's totally different appearance from the Arrowverse version), but it won't work as soon as Krypton season 2 establishes anything about the new timeline's present. It's a given that that show is going to strike its own course where both past and present are concerned, and it won't align with the Arrowverse.

As far as sheer comic book iconography, the 90s Flash is imposing. He looks like a comic book super hero. The jawline, the height, the unapologetically classic costume - I don't know, it just stands out in a totally different light than any other Arrowverse costume or look.

I already said I agree it's striking. You don't need to convince me of that. I'm just saying it doesn't look functional. What I like about the modern Arrowverse costumes is that they strike a good balance between looking faithful to the comics and looking like plausible clothing and body armor.

By the way, the concept design for the '90 Flash costume was done by Dave Stevens, creator of The Rocketeer. The producers of the show, Danny Bilson & Paul DeMeo, also wrote and produced the Rocketeer movie.

From what I remember, which could be inaccurate, most of the aliens-of-the-week were escaped prisoners, and the DEO was a secret organization because of not wanting to reveal all the alien threats, but you are right, I may have made some assumptions. I definitely did not get the idea that aliens were a common occurrence, and the only reason J'onn got away with it was his shapeshifting abilities.

Yes, season 2 definitely did open things up beyond what season 1 had established. But they kind of had to, with most of the Fort Rozz inmates exiled back into space. Also that was around the time that real-world events gave the show a reason to focus more on immigration allegories.

 

[DigificWriter]

Yes, the aliens we encountered in Season 1 came from Fort Rozz, but, again, that is not an implication that said prisoners were the only aliens on Earth.

Also, the DEO was formed because of Superman.

People keep making the assertion that Season 2's revelation that Earth had a thriving alien population represents a contradiction of what we were shown in Season 1, but said assertion is wrong and is based purely on assumptions.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Barry should have stayed dead. It was the one sacrifice in the DCU that actually *mattered.* It was by far the most interesting thing to ever happen to the character. It sparked Wally West into tier 1 stardom, with a deeper character, world, family, mythos and rogues gallery then Barry ever had. Everything that "Barry" is and has and is known for today, are all qualities developed afterward for Wally. It took decades to build and grow a deep and fantastic character, and only a year or so to tear it all down to restore "Barry", for absolutely no reason at all. There is nothing unique about modern Barry Allen in any way. Even Iris as his lightning rod and her reporter career is taken directly from Wally's soulmate, Linda Park. Zoom and Savitar were Wally's villains. Hartley was Wally's reformed friend. The Flash Museum existed as a tribute to Barry. The Speed Force was Wally's - it never existed in Barry's time. The Jay Garrick father-son relationship? Running around with a relative from the future? All Wally's stories, as well. The most interesting thing Barry Allen ever did was die.

Everything about this post is Truth.

 

[Jayson1]

I was talking about the comics, and the idea that it took decades to repair the "damage" done to The Flash - when it actually is post Barry that all of the most iconic Flash elements all took off, and that was all Wally. They (the tv show) cribbed most of Barry's traits from Wally to begin with. I feel that starting the show with a Barry more like the 90s show, with Gustin playing a younger "Wally" in need of pep talks, encouragement, and a team Flash.... might have worked out alright. They had an actor (they guy that played Eddy Thawn) that looked identical to comic-book blond Barry Allen right there! If they had Barry die or disappear early during Season 1, it would have worked out pretty well, with Wally (Gustin) proceeding pretty much the same way we saw on screen, with the Accelerator Explosion being the reason for Wally gaining powers just like his Uncle. They could still have him being mentored by Thawn, and have Thawn be responsible for Barry's disappearance, or have it be a greater mystery for both of them. The angst would come from trying to live up to the idealized version of Barry that he has, instead of dead parents. Linda Park would fit most of the same boxes that Iris does. Being mentored by Shipp/Garrick would still have most of the same elements, or they could have gone with Max Mercury instead. The show would be pretty similar. Thats my unique and unpopular take on things, anyways.

Of course if they did do this it means they would have had to actually start earlier since The Flash was introduced in the previous season on "Arrow." Also once you start getting into this kind of alterations you never know how it would all play out. Different actors landing the roles of the other characters. Different scripts. Also it could have been seen as to inside-comics for the casual audience because the Arrowverse at this point was just two shows.

Remember in season 1 Flash was the only regular with powers formost of the season except Wells and even he was hiding his most of the time. Plus the villians that they started off were kind of generic crook types at first. They didn't start getting more exotic until the later seasons.

Jason

 

[Phoenix219]

I never said any of that would be different - it would still be about a young Flash who just received powers learning to use them while fighting standard lower level criminals and new metas that got their powers the same way he did. They would get rid of Barry early and proceed almost the same way, without butchering all of the source material in the process.

 

[Mage]

Maybe this makes sense if you've read the comics, but why was Deegan's face all leathery like that at the end?