News coming 8/10?

[Rahul]

There's a serious difference between "we have already met the Borg, what else is lurking out there?" and "Don't worry, everything will turn out fine, we know in 10 years in this fictional universe nobody will talk about what just happened".

It's still possibly to make great drama out of the latter one. And IF someone manages it it will be Bryan Fuller. It's still not my preferable choice.

 

[Rahul]

That's the second time you've implied that I am stupid. I would prefer you didn't do it a third time.

I really don't think you are stupid, I have read enough other posts of you. But what you just tried to imply about what I wrote beforehand was stupid. Either because you mis-read or intentionally mis-understood what I wrote. I have repeatedly tried to make clear what my thoughts are. Twisting them to something other than what was written will be called out.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, I think a post-Nemesis should definetely have a feeling of almost being a reboot.

For me, the problem post-Nemesis is that the tech had reached almost magical quality. It had simply gotten too far removed from the basics. Add to that, the galaxy just wasn't a very interesting place. I just didn't care about anything going on in it.

Could good writing fix it? Yes. But I never felt any kind of real connection to the time period.

I was pro-reboot, and there's part of me that feels Discovery is a stealth reboot. That it will slowly move away from being consistent with the Prime timeline as it gets its legs.

 

[Rahul]

For me, the problem post-Nemesis is that the tech had reached almost magical quality. It had simply gotten too far removed from the basics. Add to that, the galaxy just wasn't a very interesting place. I just didn't care about anything going on in it.

Could good writing fix it? Yes. But I never felt any kind of real connection to the time period.

I was pro-reboot, and there's part of me that feels Discovery is a stealth reboot. That it will slowly move away from being consistent with the Prime timeline as it gets its legs.

I can see where you are coming from. But, as you previously said yourself: That wasn't because of the time period. It was because of bad writing

The solutions to that are pretty simple. Federation tech get's too advanced? Well, let them travel even further into the unknown, and meet aliens that are equally advanced.

Or just don't always meet other aliens that are humans with prosthetics. Foes like the Doomsday device, the crystaline entety are still scary when you have the level of technology of NEM.

The Federation has become as advanced enough that it can compete even with the Borg? Well, let them meet new and unknown enteties that are on the same power-level as the Borg, or even beyond.

I think the level of tech shown in the JJ-Abrams movies could have been without much work to be shown as post-Nem level of technology. I think those felt much too advanced for their time period. Something like the Yorktown starbase would have perfectly fit into a post-NEM magical-level-of-tech world.

 

[BillJ]

The solutions to that are pretty simple. Federation tech get's too advanced? Well, let them travel even further into the unknown, and meet aliens that are equally advanced.

But what's the point? You're just replacing a phaser with a mega-phaser and warp drive with mega-warp drive. Replace the Klingons with the Xanax. The terminology may be different but they serve the same exact purpose for the story they are in.

It is a problem with any centuries spanning story, I noticed this long ago with The Knights of the Old Republic. Nothing different is really being done, it is just successful elements being imitated.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But what's the point?

Kissing the fanboi ring.

 

[Rahul]

But what's the point? You're just replacing a phaser with a mega-phaser and warp drive with mega-warp drive. Replace the Klingons with the Xanax. The terminology may be different but they serve the same exact purpose for the story they are in.

It is a problem with any centuries spanning story, I noticed this long ago with The Knights of the Old Republic. Nothing different is really being done, it is just successful elements being imitated.

Yes, that's kinda' the point. The quantum torpedoes show a progression of technology, but still basically work like photon torpedoes on a narrative level.

That's why I don't want a new series to be another hundred years after NEM, but somewhat in real-time after that (~13 years later).

The basic rules of the universe would still be familiar (phasers, shields, shuttles, beaming, Andorians etc.).

The only achievement would be the possibility to continue plot lines, and act with the knowledge that what the viewers know about the universe is on the same level as what the characters know about the universe.

The main advantage would be that you can use existing canon without the need to explain any of it. If a story asks for a shady merchant, it simply can be a Ferengi, without much explanation. You can have a guest appereance by an old Patrick Stewart, as a small nod to the fans, to show how the characters have evolved after their main series. You can radically reboot and change major species, without it being contrieved, they simply have delevoped further. Reboot the klingons as more of a Samurai warrior cult than the space vikings we had before? Just say they had a change of leadership and adopted new parts of their culture. Have the Borg be ccrazy fast running zombie-aliens? Just say they have assimilated new technology. Introduce a new threat? Emphasize how big of a threat they are simply by saying "they are more advanced than any civilisation we have ever encountered before, even the Dominion".

The make-up of the universe would still be very familiar. But plot lines and the grand scheme of things would be allowed to develop further. And the stakes would be allowed to be higher, simply because the viewer doesn't already know the outome of the greater scheme.

Personally I'm also not happy with many of the developments in the later TNG-era, especially their over-reliance on force-fields an other invisible technologies. TOS will always be my favourite. But I still think the possibility of having all of Trek lore at your disposal and the possibility of introducing completely new threats, technologies, aliens and other things we have never heard of before weigh out those disadvantages.

 

[BillJ]

Introduce a new threat? Emphasize how big of a threat by saying "they are more advanced than any civilisation we have ever encountered before, even the Dominion".

While me, and a lot of other people, are asleep or finding something else to watch. Threats got bigger and bigger, shield percentages got lower and lower, and viewers were lost in the process.

Back to basics is probably the best approach. If you can't make something dramatically satisfying with Klingons, Tholians, possible Romulan spies and hundreds of unexplored worlds, bigger and badder isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

 

[Rahul]

While me, and a lot of other people, are asleep or finding something else to watch. Threats got bigger and bigger, shield percentages got lower and lower, and viewers were lost in the process.

Back to basics is probably the best approach. If you can't make something dramatically satisfying with Klingons, Tholians, possible Romulan spies and hundreds of unexplored worlds, bigger and badder isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

No. But "bigger, badder" has worked pretty well for TNG.

They basically had all their series with pretty low level threat. But when the Borg suddenly entered the picture, it was massive. After that, they were smart and didn't over-use them (until Voyager).

But a prequel series is basically never allowed to have such a "game-changer" event. Even the Xindi-threat on Enterprise, with all time-travel stuff inbetween, was never really taken as seriously as it would have been if the same plot line took place in a post-TNG setting.

I really don't want any new series focus on big threats and enemies. But I would love it if they simply were allowed to have their own "Best of both worlds" at least once(!).

EDIT:
I completely agree that "back-to-basics" should be the goal. But that doesn't mean going back in time necessarily. A good part of what worked for Trek for me was that I didn't necessarily knew how things will end (you could guess they are not going to destroy Earth or the Enterprise... but you never knew!). And the further development of rights for artificial intelligence in the Federation (like Data or the doctor) were interesting plots, of which I would like to see how they will fold out in the future.

I think they should go "back-to-basics" in terms of storytelling, character interactions, and overall tone and feeling of the show. That could have easily been done in post-NEM as well.

 

[BillJ]

I really don't want any new series focus on big threats and enemies. But I would love it if they simply were allowed to have their own "Best of both worlds" at least once(!)

Every movie we're bombarded with, "this is the next Wrath of Khan!". Hasn't worked out most of the time. I don't need for Discovery to have a "Best of Both Worlds", I want it to have drama that fits its makeup as a series.

I don't think Discovery will have a problem making dramatic TV. Did anyone really think that Earth was going to fall in "The Best of Both Worlds"? I know I didn't. It was more about the drama of the characters having to face their former commander on the field of battle, and possibly being forced to kill him.

 

[Rahul]

I didn't say I want a reboot if "Best of both worlds". I said I want to have the possibility of a story with the same impact as "Best of both worlds".

We could expect Earth not be destroyed in BOBW. But we didn't knew at what prize. Also, this episode had much ramifications for the whole Trek universe. There were many follow-up episodes, about how the characters changed after that. But also how Federation politics changed after that, knowing there is such an existential threat out there. "I, Borg" was a great example where the greater plotical changes influenced to smaller personal stories. "Inter arma silent leges" dealt with great developments on a smaller personal level.

A prequel serie simply is never capable of reaching something like that without feeling forced, because it simply isn't capable of introducing an existential threat the viewers can take seriously. ENT tried that with the Xindi-plot, and I think they mostly succeeded with that. But there still is and always will be a bitter aftertaste in that we know how all major events will fold out.

We already know robots won't get citizen rights during this era. We already know Starfleet won't try to re-militarize during this era. We already know the cold war with the klingons will never get hot. We already know genetic engineering will not get popularized in the Federation. We already know holodecks won't get invented. We already know we are not going to see tha face of a Romulan on screen.

Again, if anyone is still able to tell good stories with such restrictions it's probably Bryan Fuller.

That still doesn't change my major general issues with reboots in the slightest.

 

[cultcross]

Given this a little time to digest. I was disappointed it's a prequel again, if I'm honest. But nearly everything else is positive. Changing up the 'command roster' trope and focusing on a different crewmember than the captain - great. Diverse cast - great. Serialised storytelling with standalone elements - perfect, just what I wanted.
So far, the only thing I'm hearing in not keen on is the 'prequel' and maybe that's just because I'm soured by Enterprise. My argument would be that there is a distinction between 'prequel' and 'set in the past' and as long as it's the latter not the former, I think I'm still on board with the idea. Enterprise was a 'Birth of the Federation' series set up specifically to be important in the history of the Star Trek universe. First this, first that, famous this, groundbreaking that. That's a prequel, a 'how the camel got it's hump' and difficult to pull off. It trips all over established continuity and almost invites limitation because we know the ending, how it all turns out.
If Discovery is merely set in the past, that's different. There's loads of stuff going on while Kirk is flying around that we never got to hear about, and lots of potentially great stories to tell without interfering with what we've seen. It doesn't have to change the galaxy, it just has to tell compelling stories about the crew and the ship they've invented. That would be worth watching in any era.

Worth adding though that anyone who is expecting a STC style recreation of the 60s is going to be very disappointed. The show's symbol is a delta, for god's sake. Fully expect Starfleet deltas, not individual ship patches, and that's just for starters.

 

[BillJ]

existential threat...

Maybe that's where I fell off of the 24th century wagon. I don't much care about existential threats. Yet they were everywhere and used over and over. The Borg, the Dominion, Species 8472. When everyday is the end of the world, you tend to quit caring.

 

[Rahul]

Given this a little time to digest. I was disappointed it's a prequel again, if I'm honest. But nearly everything else is positive. Changing up the 'command roster' trope and focusing on a different crewmember than the captain - great. Diverse cast - great. Serialised storytelling with standalone elements - perfect, just what I wanted.
So far, the only thing I'm hearing in not keen on is the 'prequel' and maybe that's just because I'm soured by Enterprise. My argument would be that there is a distinction between 'prequel' and 'set in the past' and as long as it's the latter not the former, I think I'm still on board with the idea. Enterprise was a 'Birth of the Federation' series set up specifically to be important in the history of the Star Trek universe. First this, first that, famous this, groundbreaking that. That's a prequel, a 'how the camel got it's hump' and difficult to pull off. It trips all over established continuity and almost invites limitation because we know the ending, how it all turns out.
If Discovery is merely set in the past, that's different. There's loads of stuff going on while Kirk is flying around that we never got to hear about, and lots of potentially great stories to tell without interfering with what we've seen. It doesn't have to change the galaxy, it just has to tell compelling stories about the crew and the ship they've invented. That would be worth watching in any era.

Worth adding though that anyone who is expecting a STC style recreation of the 60s is going to be very disappointed. The show's symbol is a delta, for god's sake. Fully expect Starfleet deltas, not individual ship patches, and that's just for starters.

It is a modern series. I fully expected them to adopt modern storytelling devices, otherwise I would have been seriously disappointed.

I still think Fuller and crew will be giving as a great (or at least "good") show. But my excitement has seriously dropped since the confirmation of a prequel setting.

That being said, there is one thing I'm REALLY happy to hear about:

• “Saucer section, the cells, and the design that we leaked early on has changed considerably. But it’s still very much inspired by those [Ralph McQuarrie] illustrations." -Bryan Fuller

"YES!" -me

 

[Kemaiku]

Also, I have to say, I am disappointed it is set a mere 10 years prior to TOS. I was hoping it would be set at least 30 years prior, if not more. In fact, I would have liked to see it set at a time where Enterprise cast members could make a cameo.

According to the "In a Mirror Darkly" files of the crew, Archer and Tpol were present for the launch of the 1701 (Archer dying in his sleep shortly after) and Hoshi died on Tarsus IV as one of those executed by Kodos.

 

[Rahul]

Maybe that's where I fell off of the 24th century wagon. I don't much care about existential threats. Yet they were everywhere and used over and over. The Borg, the Dominion, Species 8472. When everyday is the end of the world, you tend to quit caring.

Like it or not, existential threats have been a Trek staple right from the beginning. The Doomsday device, giant space amoeba, destruction of the universe by anti-universe, cold war with hostile aliens (Romulans & Klingons), V'Ger, Genesis, the whale probe, and countless more. That's definetely not 24th century specific, and we saw it in the other prequel series as well.

For me the "space is scary"-part is as much part of Trek as the "space is interesting and exploring it cool" part.

 

[ancient]

No real info yet then other than the lead being a lower rank.

Time for me to make a prediction so that if I happen to be right I can become unbearable and run around bragging about how I called it.

It's a show about mutineers!!!!

 

[Annorax849]

Ding dind ding. We have a winner!


Add to that that half of Trek lore is unavailable -no Romulans, no Borg, no holodecks, no replicators, no Ferengi, no tractor beams, no Cardassians, no Kirk/Spock references (other than obscure ones), no site-to-site beaming. No major timetravel events, no discoveries that would change the universe. Add to THAT that the writers aren't allowed to introduce new, game-changing technologies like all Trek series did previously. No drones, no robots, no wheeled vehicles. No augments, no artifial intelligence on a level as Data.

Like I mentioned earlier, it's true about Romulans, Borg, and Ferengi; but they could include Cardassians if they want. Are Tractor Beams and Site to Site things that were specifically stated to not have been available at this time? If not, it's fine if they include them, even if they weren't shown in TOS.

 

[Tosk]

I just remembered how much I hated season two of Fargo. I knew where it was all headed.

I also hated X-Men First Class, Temple of Doom, and The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

 

[Rahul]

Yeah, there's much discussing about minutiae going on in this thread.

The bigger problem is, a story in a prequel setting is much less likely to surprise viewers. You either know where it's all heading, or it goes completely off the rails and has nothing to do with the prequel setting anymore.

I really really hope they are capable of writing unpredictable yet entertaining stories in this kind of setting.