New shuttle?

[Timo]

On the entire design, the door is literally the ONLY difference in the entire design; this, to you, is the "only thing of any significance?"

Naturally. The door tells us explicitly what TPTB wanted: "something new". This defines the end result: "a shuttle the audience will consider a new addition to the Trek universe".

After all, the door is not merely the only "difference", it is also the only feature whatsoever on the existing prop! Its significance thus is basically infinite.

Whether the shuttle is intended to be a 2250s evolution of the 2230s shuttle or not is irrelevant. It's only your original and baseless conviction that TPTB "attempted" to recreate the 2230s shuttle that I find so absurd. If the shuttle we see is a 2250s modification, then your conviction is wrong - TPTB did not "attempt" to build or perhaps rebuild Robau's shuttle and tragically fail.

No, the TFF shuttle prop was actually rebuilt into the Type-6 shuttle for TNG. The design we saw in Generations was a miniature and no full-sized prop was ever built. The miniatures used in Generations preserved the new nacelles and window arrangement that were present on the Type-6

Mistakes on both sides... Yes, it's a miniature, but no, it doesn't have Type-6 nacelles - it has the old ST5 ones.

The point is still valid: they used existing material to create new material, but the dramatic intent wasn't to reproduce existing material - it was to create new on the cheap. And that's the only thing about your assertions that I object to: that there would have been an intent to recreate Robau's shuttle, rather than merely use possible available material to new purposes.

As no exterior set piece was actually built for the Kelvin shuttle, I can only assume you're once again implying that this is an old prop that is being modified for some reason.

Umm, you sure?

This is how wide the principal, 2250s shuttle interior is:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1353.jpg

This is half of how wide it is:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0662.jpg

And this is how wide the Kelvin shuttle interior is:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0184.jpg

While much of the interior decoration is obviously recycled from set to set or prop to prop or whatever, it's obvious that the medical shuttle interior set is not the same as the principal shuttle prop, but instead is separately purpose-built. OTOH, the medical shuttle interior corresponds nicely to the new prop we see, including the forward window, and does not appear to require wild walls in locations where the new prop couldn't have them. In other words, it's a good candidate for an in-and-out prop rather than a mere interior set.

We don't know if the two sections with sliding doors and outer/inner walls used in the "entering the Robau/medical shuttle" scenes were part of this set/prop or a separate two-part set/prop; in theory, the entire medical shuttle interior could have been rather easily carried into the factory and filmed there (while the massive principal shuttle obviously could not). But we have every reason to believe in a rather complete set of the medical shuttle forward half, and in sliding door set/prop - making it eminently possible that we are in fact discussing a medical shuttle prop.

...Which in its original incarnation then clearly has the sliding doors on both sides. So yes, those were ripped out and replaced.

In the alternate theory where the medical shuttle interior set is not part of an exterior prop (a theory supported by the fact that TPTB never filmed a continuous shot of somebody entering the Robau/medical shuttle), and the exterior prop we now see is not an expansion of the one-piece interior set, the doors were only figuratively ripped out and replaced by different ones. But figurative counts, too, as it shows the intent, and the only evident intent.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

On the entire design, the door is literally the ONLY difference in the entire design; this, to you, is the "only thing of any significance?"

Naturally. The door tells us explicitly what TPTB wanted: "something new".

Really? It rather appears they wanted "Something like what we had last time, but with a different door." If they wanted something new they would have built something new, not a 99% replica of something old.

The door is significant insofar as it is the only identifiable detail so far to tell the two shuttles apart. That singular difference has many potential implications, but "they wanted something new" isn't one of them.

After all, the door is not merely the only "difference", it is also the only feature whatsoever on the existing prop!

You mean the window cutout, the decals on the bow, the surface detailing on the side, top and front, the cowling for the impulse engines and the partially-complete interior are just figments of my imagination?

Whether the shuttle is intended to be a 2250s evolution of the 2230s shuttle or not is irrelevant. It's only your original and baseless conviction that TPTB "attempted" to recreate the 2230s shuttle that I find so absurd.

There's nothing absurd about it, it is very obviously a recreation of the 2230s shuttle. The gulwing door is the only visible difference in the two designs.

The point is still valid: they used existing material to create new material, but the dramatic intent wasn't to reproduce existing material - it was to create new on the cheap. And that's the only thing about your assertions that I object to: that there would have been an intent to recreate Robau's shuttle, rather than merely use possible available material to new purposes.

The problem for you is they ALREADY built two completely new shuttle designs for STXI. The one design they DIDN'T build was the 2230s model; rather, they modified the 2250s set pieces to double for it in the brief scenes where they were to be used.

Instead of reusing the STXI shuttle designs, they have gone back and built a REAL prop for the Kelvin-style shuttle. That clearly indicates they intend to give the older design more direct screen time that can't be faked by dressing up a different shuttle design.

Why did they do this? We don't know. Probably it's because something about the Kelvin design works more favorably for their production plans (smaller, maybe? Looks better in screen tests?). The one thing we know for sure is that the shuttles that DID get built for STXI are not appropriate for what they're planning, which is why they are finally getting around to building a real Kelvin shuttle prop.

As no exterior set piece was actually built for the Kelvin shuttle, I can only assume you're once again implying that this is an old prop that is being modified for some reason.

Umm, you sure?

Yes I am. It's been pointed out many times by smarter people than me that Bad Robot built only two full-sized shuttles, the smaller medium shuttle and the large "troop transport" design. The larger one was used for all three interiors, including Scotty's shuttles, being redressed into a new configuration every single time. This was done intentionally to avoid having to build three completely different sets on three completely different mockups; they simply shifted around the interior of a single set and faked it each time.

While much of the interior decoration is obviously recycled from set to set or prop to prop or whatever, it's obvious that the medical shuttle interior set is not the same as the principal shuttle prop

According to the backstage sources, they ARE. Apparently they put up some walls in the double-wide to simulate the more narrow hull of the older craft. The sloping walls would have bolted in right about where the vertical light panels are in the walkways of the double-wide (the middle seats/racks are removed in that case).

We don't know if the two sections with sliding doors and outer/inner walls used in the "entering the Robau/medical shuttle" scenes were part of this set/prop or a separate two-part set/prop

Yes we do. They were attached to a redress of one of the 2250s shuttles for those scenes only. It is less clear whether or not the exterior sliding door set was part of the shuttle mockup or just a set piece that was moved into position for the location shoot (the latter seems more likely).

The original Kelvin shuttle prop was never built; they even redressed the cockpit of the double wide by simply moving Robau to the starboard side and slightly altering the controls.

...Which in its original incarnation

The one that was never actually built? That one?

In the alternate theory where the medical shuttle interior set is not part of an exterior prop (a theory supported by the fact that TPTB never filmed a continuous shot of somebody entering the Robau/medical shuttle), and the exterior prop we now see is not an expansion of the one-piece interior set

Considering that only the top portion of it is even completed, that's almost certainly NOT the case. More importantly Bad Robot never even got around to completing the interior of the medium-sized academy shuttle, which we DID see people entering and which Kirk and McCoy WERE supposed to be inside of during the trip to Enterprise. Instead, they redressed the interior of the double wide AGAIN by turning the seats sideways and painting the walls.

Ironically, the FX people were confused by this as well; since the footage of McCoy and Kirk looking out the window was shot from the outside of the double-wide design, the CGId their faces into a double wide for the flyby, despite the fact that they are clearly seen boarding the medium shuttle.

So of the three shuttles, ONLY the double-wide ever had a completed interior; it in fact held ALL of the interiors for all of the shuttles, including Kelvin's.

 

[Sector 7]

*shrugs* It looks like the Kelvin shuttle to me. This sounds like a case of much ado about nothing.

"This is TrekBBS, it's our job, it's what we do."

 

[Balrog]

A nu shuttle for nuTrek!

Kewl...

 

[Patrickivan]

I don't know- it looks very much like the medical one from the last movie. The little airplane-esque antenae, the window shape, the hull angles (look under the scaffolding the the left- you can see the lower hull faintly), all seem to match...

And I have no problem with that. It's a decent little shuttle. A little superfluously greebly, but meh, it looks fine.

 

[Timo]

It rather appears they wanted "Something like what we had last time, but with a different door."

And we're completely agreed on that. This is worlds apart from wanting "Robau's shuttle redone, but poorly".

You mean the window cutout, the decals on the bow, the surface detailing on the side, top and front, the cowling for the impulse engines and the partially-complete interior are just figments of my imagination?

Yup. They don't exist in the sliding door prop. Only the sliding door does. That, plus a few dozen inches of plywood wall on either side. ( Perhaps in duplicate, though, as we also see the insides of the opposite pair when Robau enters.)

If they wanted to recreate the shuttle represented by the sliding door prop (plus by some CGI and innards), they would have used the sliding door. If they wanted an all- new shuttle that comes from the same general universe, by golly, they succeeded.

According to the backstage sources, they ARE. Apparently they put up some walls in the double-wide to simulate the more narrow hull of the older craft. The sloping walls would have bolted in right about where the vertical light panels are in the walkways of the double-wide (the middle seats/racks are removed in that case).

I'm very interested in this. How much of this comes from these backstage sources? (What are they?) Or is it just rationalization of how things must have been done because backstage sources say all shuttle interiors were filmed with the 2250s prop?

Very little of the medical shuttle looks like it could come from the 2250s shuttle. Here we have a view of the 2250s prop looking forward, with ceiling detail visible. The medical ceiling would have to be modified quite radically from this, even though the installing of the common control console and the fancy sliding internal door piece ought to be a breeze.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd2146.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

 

[chardman]

The design differences between this "new" shuttle and the Kelvin shuttles seen in the last film, are pretty much comparable to the differences between this year's Porsche 911, and the original 911 introduced nearly 50 years ago.

Which is to say, almost no real visible difference whatsoever.

Year after year, they've made subtle tweaks to the design, and some minor differences are introduced, but by and large, the car looks pretty much the same now as it did way back in 1963.

I'd say any differences between this "new" shuttle and the Kelvin shuttles could easily be put down to similar design tweaks in what's still essentially supposed to be a different year of the very "model" of vehicle.

As for the difference in the doors... Perhaps the doors on the "new" shuttle don't actually open as they appear, at least on film. It's entirely possible that this prop is a "wild set", where various parts are hinged to swing out of the way to better accommodate camera placement. Thus, it's possible that what we're seeing there is still a sliding door in the film itself, but that it is also hinged to allow the whole door assembly folded out of the way strictly for camera placement.

ETA: Just took another look at that pic, and I'm not even convinced that the structure sticking out from the shuttle hull is even a door at all.

First off, there doesn't appear to have any sort of opening under this supposed hatch.

Second, there's a couple of barely visible "seams" located immediately in front of this structure, which I think might be the actual hatch (which isn't readily visible due to simple foreshortening) and that the hatch-like structure isn't a hatch at all, but another structure altogether, located much further back than is readily apparent from this particular angle.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

According to the backstage sources, they ARE. Apparently they put up some walls in the double-wide to simulate the more narrow hull of the older craft. The sloping walls would have bolted in right about where the vertical light panels are in the walkways of the double-wide (the middle seats/racks are removed in that case).

I'm very interested in this. How much of this comes from these backstage sources? (What are they?) Or is it just rationalization of how things must have been done because backstage sources say all shuttle interiors were filmed with the 2250s prop?

There was a fairly long article about it two years ago where they interviewed JJ Abrams about the opening scene. He mentioned that they had saved money by reusing a lot of hardware in different configurations instead of having to rebuild stuff, and one of the innovative things they did was to only fill out the interior for the "military shuttle" and use it for all the shuttle interiors. He didn't explicitly say they had used it for the medical shuttle, but one of the posts on John Eaves' blog implied as much, and anyway we already know they used the double wide's cockpit for the medical shuttle and there's nothing to prevent them doing the same for the interior.

Very little of the medical shuttle looks like it could come from the 2250s shuttle.

Use the screencap you posted. Look at the ceiling structure above and to the right of Scotty's head.

Now look at the ceiling structure of the medical shuttle. The light fixtures and paneling are different, but the basic structure is the same.