Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[JJMiller]

My theory, unwritten, was that in one of the refits the outer hull was removed and decks were added. Again, the easy route would be to not explain anything — but if you read the book you'll see the degree to which what was where on the ship, and what its capabilities were, was vital to the narrative. I'm a blueprints guy — if the shipboard parts aren't the Full Clancy, it's at least some distance towards it.

You'll also see Enterprise War makes the case that the Desperate Hours' events did happen, but that because of the characters' emotional baggage, the episode already feels distant and long ago to both the characters involved. We're aided in this in that people's words aren't always accurate reports of their own lives; a date shown on a computer screen or etched in marble on a statue is a little harder to rationalize away than a guesstimate from a speaker. (Though even that is doable!)

As to the final question, I'm usually briefed by licensors on tie-in projects as we go, but if I spot a new element that I might want to acknowledge and there's time, I will at least nod towards it, at least tangentially. Yeoman Colt is the case in point for that in Enterprise War. I suggest reading the book to see how I touched on these things.

Connecting dots is never the point of any of our stories, but sometimes unobtrusive things can be done that help the meta-narrative.

 

[CaptainXaviOfEarth]

I suggest reading the book to see how I touched on these things.

It’s physically on my book shelf, I will definitely get round to reading it. I have so many TMNT comics and books to get through, my Star Trek and Star Wars reading has been backburnered.

 

[JD]

Yeoman Colt is the case in point for that in Enterprise War. I suggest reading the book to see how I touched on these things.

So you do deal with the Colt issue then? I've been meaning to ask if that was addressed.

 

[thribs]

One thing seems to be the same. Worf becomes the captain of the Enterprise. Just took longer in the litverse.

 

[JJMiller]

So you do deal with the Colt issue then? I've been meaning to ask if that was addressed.

I would say it was... finessed. There is a passage which, read carefully, indicates the book is aware of what you are aware of, and leaves it at that.

 

[BillJ]

Really curious to know how do you explain in your mind the size difference between TOS and Discovery’s 1701s?

Is there technically a size difference? The original 1701 size was never stated on screen. There might have been a diagram in "The Day of the Dove" that was kinda legible.

Back to reading the decidedly non-canon Star Trek: New Frontier.

 

[thribs]

Just imagine the proper Enterprise every time you see that monstrosity. That’s what I do.

 

[Damian]

It’s physically on my book shelf, I will definitely get round to reading it. I have so many TMNT comics and books to get through, my Star Trek and Star Wars reading has been backburnered.

Definitely recommend it. I found it to be an excellent read, and I'm not one to throw excellent around a lot. I rate most current books above average. I don't do streaming so I only get to see Discovery when it comes out on Blu-Ray. I found myself lucky and at an advantage since I read this book before seeing season 2. It added some dimension to what I was seeing from the Pike/Spock angle and added some explanations as to what the Enterprise was doing during the Klingon War.

Is there technically a size difference? The original 1701 size was never stated on screen. There might have been a diagram in "The Day of the Dove" that was kinda legible.

Back to reading the decidedly non-canon Star Trek: New Frontier.

To be honest I don't pay a ton of attention to things like technical specs. I mean, I know the basics like the ship can go a maximum of warp 8, it has 432 crew members give or take a few, and I know during the early The Cage era it was about half that. I think another novel even explained how the complement ballooned to 430+ and the refit/redesign of the ship.

But frankly, I just assumed the Enterprise in Discovery was the same as the original series at that time frame (with a few enhancements to its look but otherwise I assumed size, complement, capabilities were the same as The Cage).

 

[JJMiller]

This was not something I wrote, but in the Franz Joseph blueprints the TOS version had two adjacent decks for personnel quarters in the saucer and two in the engineering hull. The easiest way to double the complement would be to assume it was once one deck in one or both cases, and that they managed to get two in that space (or to increase the space available).

How you'd do that I don't know -- but then what we saw in "Q&A" suggests there's enough empty space between the decks and bulkheads to open a Carvana dealership!

 

[David cgc]

I'd add that the shows themselves are "canon until they're not." I expect everyone working on the Dallas "Dream Season" was sure they were writing canon!

The X-Men movies are another excellent example; each one tended to go back and forth about which of the previous ones "counted" in that particular movie's backstory.

A question for the writers, has there been any requests or "pressure" by CBS or Secret Hideout to incorporate the redesign within the books?

My belief is that the infamous "25% different" directive for the Discoprise was meant to ensure the ship was different enough that entities with a TOS license couldn't get away with producing stuff using the new version, so I'd guess that the current status quo would be anything TOS-era branded "Star Trek" or "Star Trek: The Original Series" will use the '60s design, and the new design will only be used for things branded as "Star Trek: Discovery."

So you do deal with the Colt issue then? I've been meaning to ask if that was addressed.

Given that, IIRC, the word "Colt" was never seen or heard within the episode, only in the credits, I'd be just as happy ignoring it. It's not like there's a novel or comic about how Nyota got married to John Uhuru in the early 2290s to explain why her name was spelled that way in the credits for TUC.

 

[JJMiller]

Given that, IIRC, the word "Colt" was never seen or heard within the episode, only in the credits, I'd be just as happy ignoring it.

I tried to make sure what I wrote would work in that case, too. It was just a light reference that could be read two ways.

 

[CaptainXaviOfEarth]

Is there technically a size difference?

Yes. Discovery’s 1701 is 442 metres in length, and is proportionately bigger in parts on top of that too. TOS’s 1701 is 288 metres in length and slimmer.

Canonically, the Discovery version is the 1701. The older design is non-canon. Light tease, the next RPG will have TOS characters in the new design uniforms and 1701. A bit like the animated short that came out. They’re not using TOS branding, so that becoming a nostalgia sub brand makes sense.

 

[Damian]

Canonically, the Discovery version is the 1701. The older design is non-canon.

It's all canon. The original series (which is still technically just Star Trek, the original series banner was just added to distinguish it from other series) is still very much part of the canon.

Now that's separate from continuity. The new continuity is apparently following a larger Enterprise. That will be the new reality going forward. But the original series will never be 'non-canon'. Just the continuity's changed.

Yes. Discovery’s 1701 is 442 metres in length, and is proportionately bigger in parts on top of that too. TOS’s 1701 is 288 metres in length and slimmer.

Is that actually acknowledged in the show? I don't recall, it may have been but I can't recall off hand. If it's not, if it's just in some reference material then it's technically not canon-not until and unless it's said or shown in an episode of the show.

But that being said, if it's a reference material that is licensed material, while it is not technically canon, it's probably safe to assume that it's the intent of the writers and show runners so current tie-ins are safe to run with it.

The moderators here absolutely love canon discussions But in Star Trek canon has always been what is on screen. From "The Cage" through the most recent episode of Picard, including the movies and yes, the animated series. It's all part of the canon.

 

[DS9Continuing]

...elements of the novels have creeped in to Discovery and probably will Picard (especially with Kirsten Beyer and David Mack being actively on hand to say “hey this thing in the novels could fit what you’re doing...”)...

I am very curious what the names of Riker and Troi’s child/children are, as that seems like a natural way for K Beyer to give a nod to the litverse

This is the kind of thing where I can't see any reason not to do it. There is no reason they couldn't have had their daughter named Natasha the same as in the books. It means nothing and hurts no-one to keep it instead of changing it, it refers to a canon character in the same way the actual name that was spoiled does, and it provides that tiny little Easter egg that will thrill TrekLit readers while leaving non-TrekLit readers none the wiser.

Likewise when referring to Riker's canon-established command of the Titan – Picard could ask, "How's the Titan?" and Riker could respond "Christine's got it all under control," and they move on. Pleases Lit fans, no-one else even notices. Doesn't even mean the continuities are the same, just that some elements of it are.

It would be the same as The Night of the Doctor, when the Eighth Doctor name-checked his companions from the Big Finish audios, thus making fans of those audios explode with validation while establishing literally nothing except that these were people who had names and who met the Doctor at some point.

And that there are probably thousands of other starships out there with equally-distinguished crews who don't often share the limelight with the "main" characters of whichever TV show or movie is going on at a given moment.

To the perennial question of "Isn't it convenient that exciting adventures always happen to the crew who happen to have their own TV show?", there are two answers – 1. How do you know everyone else isn't also having amazing adventures? (as supported by the fact that we have now seen six different crews have amazing adventures on TV alone, and many more in the books), and/or 2. The fact that this crew has all the amazing adventures is precisely why they get the TV show and other crews don't.

And as I've noted on another thread somewhere that just leaves DS9 without any sort of finale. It'd be nice if we got just one more DS9 book in the relaunch universe to do something similar. An opportunity to say good-bye to the series relaunch that pretty much started it all with the relaunches. I haven't seen DRG's name on any upcoming books, it'd be nice to find out he's working on one last DS9 book (since he seems to have been writing most of the recent DS9-based DS9 books).

Given my dissatisfaction with the direction of the DS9 line, I'm kind of okay leaving it where it is. Robinson and Aventine are both in a "the adventure continues" place, the S31 thread was finished in "Control" with its coda in "Collateral Damage", Garak left Cardassia in a better state than he found it, the station itself and its bland and nameless crew are just doing their everyday thing. The only storylines left unfinished are the Falsework and the underground Dominion railroad – which honestly are DRG3's own fault for serialising as much as he does instead of just writing one story at a time. If we have to end the line there, it feels more like putting it out of its misery than missing out on a grand finale. But that's just me being bitter.

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[CaptainXaviOfEarth]

Is that actually acknowledged in the show? I don't recall, it may have been but I can't recall off hand.

Not on screen, but it’s clearly not the same size as the one in TOS, because if it was it would be nearly 1/3 the length of the Discovery. It looks about 2/3 the length, so 442m seems accurate.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Because the proportions are different, the size will be different. That said, in theory you can "recast" the ship just like you can any actor. And just like Quinto and Peck aren't the same height as Leonard Nimoy, the Enterprises don't need to be the same size either.

That being said... it's harder to reconcile the technology as presented in Discovery with TOS. Nemesis-level forcefield tech on the USS Shenzhou and Discovery when the classic Enterprise had to decompress the shuttlebay to take a shuttle on board? Hundreds of heavily armed shuttles and drones in the TARDIS-like shuttlebay? Hmmm.

 

[The Wormhole]

Desperate Hours springs to mind here, though I’m guessing the aesthetic and idea of introducing Pike and a revamped Enterprise came after the book for finalised. Or they just didn’t say anything.

Desperate Hours was commissioned while Bryan Fuller was still running Disco. He requested David Mack use the Enterprise, Pike, Spock and crew in the novel because he had no plans for them ever to be on the show. Then Fuller left, and the subsequent showrunners had different ideas.

So you do deal with the Colt issue then? I've been meaning to ask if that was addressed.

IIRC, there's just a vague reference to Colt having "changed a great deal" since the Talos mission.

 

[Damian]

The only storylines left unfinished are the Falsework and the underground Dominion railroad – which honestly are DRG3's own fault for serialising as much as he does instead of just writing one story at a time. If we have to end the line there, it feels more like putting it out of its misery than missing out on a grand finale. But that's just me being bitter.

To each their own I guess. I'd like to see a resolution to those storylines along with what's going on with Dr Bashir after "Enigma Tales", which ended with just a bit of hope for our hero doctor. I'm also curious to see where they go with Kira and Odo. It might be a bit of a challenge but I think those various storylines can be tied up in a single novel. You're right about Robinson in the sense that "Original Sin" ended sort of like "Collateral Damage" that the ship continued on its mission of exploration, like the Enterprise does. While I'd love to see more adventures there, there's no major outstanding story threads that need to be resolved (though some minor ones that can be continued).

That being said... it's harder to reconcile the technology as presented in Discovery with TOS.

That is a continuing issue I've had with Discovery, along with production design. I prefer a tighter continuity (though I'm not totally inflexible---I always say that Enterprise struck a good balance between looking futuristic but being less advanced than the original series). It's hard to reconcile Discovery with the original series from a technological standpoint. It's one of the reasons I sort of wish they just moved to the future, maybe a century post-Nemesis. Then it'd be a lot easier to say any changes are just a result of being a century later. Sort of like when TNG came out. While Roddenberry considered it a sort of reboot, it was still pretty easy to reconcile it to the original series because you could just say any changes are because it's 78+ years later. It's a lot harder to explain how the Discovery appears and seems more advanced than the original series which was 10 years later. And in many ways they didn't. Though it seems the current showrunners are of a different mindset and are trying to reorient the show to be more consistent. The problem is since Fuller, who helped create the show, had a much different priority and set up the show, I think the current showrunners are having difficulty making those adaptations. But they get an A for effort. For instance I thought the whole spore drive being classified was a bit clunky--so many people know about it that it seems unlikely they could keep it a secret for long---but I give them credit for the effort of explaining it away. It's not always pretty but it'll have to do.

 

[CaptainXaviOfEarth]

I don’t think you’re meant to reconcile it. They’re just rebooted elements that replace their TOS counterparts.

 

[JD]

They don't really replace the TOS stuff, it's just that it will look that way in Discovery related stuff. The tie-ins are still continuing to use the TOS versions in TOS stories, if it was really meant to replace the original designs in the canon, then everything from that point would have to use those designs, but that is not what has happened.

Because the proportions are different, the size will be different. That said, in theory you can "recast" the ship just like you can any actor. And just like Quinto and Peck aren't the same height as Leonard Nimoy, the Enterprises don't need to be the same size either.

That being said... it's harder to reconcile the technology as presented in Discovery with TOS. Nemesis-level forcefield tech on the USS Shenzhou and Discovery when the classic Enterprise had to decompress the shuttlebay to take a shuttle on board? Hundreds of heavily armed shuttles and drones in the TARDIS-like shuttlebay? Hmmm.

To each their own I guess. I'd like to see a resolution to those storylines along with what's going on with Dr Bashir after "Enigma Tales", which ended with just a bit of hope for our hero doctor. I'm also curious to see where they go with Kira and Odo. It might be a bit of a challenge but I think those various storylines can be tied up in a single novel. You're right about Robinson in the sense that "Original Sin" ended sort of like "Collateral Damage" that the ship continued on its mission of exploration, like the Enterprise does. While I'd love to see more adventures there, there's no major outstanding story threads that need to be resolved (though some minor ones that can be continued).



That is a continuing issue I've had with Discovery, along with production design. I prefer a tighter continuity (though I'm not totally inflexible---I always say that Enterprise struck a good balance between looking futuristic but being less advanced than the original series). It's hard to reconcile Discovery with the original series from a technological standpoint. It's one of the reasons I sort of wish they just moved to the future, maybe a century post-Nemesis. Then it'd be a lot easier to say any changes are just a result of being a century later. Sort of like when TNG came out. While Roddenberry considered it a sort of reboot, it was still pretty easy to reconcile it to the original series because you could just say any changes are because it's 78+ years later. It's a lot harder to explain how the Discovery appears and seems more advanced than the original series which was 10 years later. And in many ways they didn't. Though it seems the current showrunners are of a different mindset and are trying to reorient the show to be more consistent. The problem is since Fuller, who helped create the show, had a much different priority and set up the show, I think the current showrunners are having difficulty making those adaptations. But they get an A for effort. For instance I thought the whole spore drive being classified was a bit clunky--so many people know about it that it seems unlikely they could keep it a secret for long---but I give them credit for the effort of explaining it away. It's not always pretty but it'll have to do.

As much as I enjoy Discovery, I will admit the technology they introduced in Discovery is a bit hard to reconcile what we see in TOS. I understand from a real world perspective the ideas of what is futuristic has changed a lot since the '60s and they wanted to present stuff that fit with today's ideas of what's futuristic, but I think that the stuff we see is a bit to advanced to be believable as existing 10 years before TOS. I thought Enterprise actually did do a pretty good job of giving us stuff that was futuristic today, but still believable as being 100 years before TOS.