New Federation worlds, poat Voyager?

[B.J.]

The Tamarians from the episode "Darmok" is another example, but for different reasons. There is no way that a society that communicates in metaphors can ever become a technologically advanced space faring civilization. Neither species should have made it past their own atmosphere.

I don't want to pee in your cornflakes, but the Achilles' heel of your argument is that this is already water under the bridge, so you might be up the river. But I don't want to beat a dead horse.
Yes, I know it's a horrible mashup of idioms, but I'm making a point here! Plus there's all the visual memes that instantly convey ideas that, like the linguistic idioms, don't make sense unless you're familiar with the history or already know what they're supposed to mean. One might argue that the Tamarians are actually more culturally developed than Earth since their language has drifted to be completely made up of metaphor/idiom shorthand. One little phrase in their language may be the equivalent of a novella of information in ours. I don't see how that would prevent technological advances, and may actually imply the opposite, that they're capable of quite advanced thinking.

 

[velour]

And yet they were, apparent the technological equals of Starfleet.Yet their Empire is older than the Federation, and in the 24th century is in technological parity with the Federation, in a few areas more advanced. Admiral Janeway used a Klingon time and position device to return to Voyager in Endgame.

Despite their violence and occasional civil wars, the Klingons would appear to have a stable and functional society.

I get your point. But, I also agree with the point that Deks was making:

"Trek did some of the things right, but I think it is highly unrealistic that there are as many uneducated aliens for space-faring civilizations in Trek as we've seen - I know they are there to generate drama, but COME ON, that just borders right down with ridiculous - most of the hostile species we've seen in Trek, especially the Klingons strike me as the type of civilizations who would sooner destroy themselves first before they venture out into the galaxy - although I guess that the Hurgh invasion gave the klingons the necessary space faring technology... unless this united them temporarily and then they decided to revert for whatever reason back to more primitive ways... )."

The Klingons are a fictional species. It is unrealistic (from my p.o.v) that such a species, as they are portrayed, would develop into a sustainable, functional technologically advanced civilization. The Klingons are tribal, they live and die by the motto 'today is a good day to die', they worship combat and warfare (self destructive behavior), they don't seem to value science or innovation, they are regressive, they hold the children accountable for the sins of their father, they have revenge killings, they engage in civil wars, etc.

As Adm. Cartwright described them, the Klingons are the trash of the galaxy. However, in the Trek universe, the Klingons are who they are; and their backstory is whatever it is. I accept that. I am more than happy to suspend disbelief in order to enjoy the show.

I don't want to pee in your cornflakes, but the Achilles' heel of your argument is that this is already water under the bridge, so you might be up the river. But I don't want to beat a dead horse.
Yes, I know it's a horrible mashup of idioms, but I'm making a point here! Plus there's all the visual memes that instantly convey ideas that, like the linguistic idioms, don't make sense unless you're familiar with the history or already know what they're supposed to mean. One might argue that the Tamarians are actually more culturally developed than Earth since their language has drifted to be completely made up of metaphor/idiom shorthand. One little phrase in their language may be the equivalent of a novella of information in ours. I don't see how that would prevent technological advances, and may actually imply the opposite, that they're capable of quite advanced thinking.

You are whistling in the dark. It's not over till the fat lady sings.

Developing advanced technology and navigating through space requires precision. Communicating in metaphors is problematic. Metaphors are not precise. Mathematics and physics require precision. You have to mean what you mean. Metaphors are usually ambiguous.

Also, the two parties that are having a metaphoric conversation have to know what each other is referring to. If you have no idea what or who Jalad, Temba and Tanagra are, then you cannot effectively communicate.

Even if one did know what those names are referring to, one party might have a different interpretation of what the person, place or event means. If you cannot say what you mean and mean what you say, it becomes a mess. A captain can send a ship crashing into a meteor before the helmsman can figure out what the captain really meant.

 

[Deks]

Stable and functional is not the description I would use for the Klingons.
They seem to have plenty of problems with their 'high council', and different houses inciting fights with each other...
They are excessively prone to emotional outbursts at slightest of provocations (unless they thought things through for certain situations, and that's been really rare).

The Klingon empire may be older than the Federation, but that's mainly because they took the necessary technology from another invading alien species.
To me, the Klingons are an excellent example of a socially primitive culture that acquired many of the technologies they did way before they were ready.

Janeway may have used Korath's device to return Voyager home early, but that doesn't mean he invented it.
I am actually surprised the Klingons or the Romulans would be on par with the Federation in terms of technology...
Actually, one could argue they are not.
Q described the Federation as 'the king of the anthill' in that part of the galaxy... and for good reason.
I can understand the Federation and Klingons and Romulans being on par with each other in the 23rd century... but not in the 24th.
By the 24th century, and given how Federation works, they would be far more advanced in comparison vs any other power in that corner of the galaxy.

Still, the Federation did openly share various scientific findings with other (non aligned) races.
That (plus possible espionage, etc.) could have allowed the Klingons and Romulans to keep up, but likely not overtake the Federation (otherwise, I think both would have at some point decided to overrun the Federation sooner rather than later).

Then there's the peace treaty with the Klingons which ensued with ST VI... which probably would have allowed for sharing of technologies... plus, the Klingons were starting to 'calm down' in their behavior towards the Federation (at least those who saw the potential of what peace and cooperation could bring).

And with the Dominion War... I think all 3 powers would share intelligence and certain technologies to a good degree (we do have the example of a Romulan cloaking device on the Defiant - which would require the use of Romulans knowing something about how Defiant's technology works, and vice verse).

 

[Shawnster]

I don't want to pee in your cornflakes, but the Achilles' heel of your argument is that this is already water under the bridge, so you might be up the river. But I don't want to beat a dead horse.
Yes, I know it's a horrible mashup of idioms, but I'm making a point here! Plus there's all the visual memes that instantly convey ideas that, like the linguistic idioms, don't make sense unless you're familiar with the history or already know what they're supposed to mean. One might argue that the Tamarians are actually more culturally developed than Earth since their language has drifted to be completely made up of metaphor/idiom shorthand. One little phrase in their language may be the equivalent of a novella of information in ours. I don't see how that would prevent technological advances, and may actually imply the opposite, that they're capable of quite advanced thinking.

The problems with entirely idiomatic language is are 1: You have to understand the idiom 2: How was the thought conveyed before the idiom came into existence and 3: Idioms cannot express basic aspects of communication.

1. Even among speakers of the same language, people may not always understand the idiom being used. They lack the education or cultural references. This may not be that big a problem as all language has issues like this.

2. Idioms are invented and develop over time. So, how were the first thoughts initially conveyed before the idiom came about?

3. How does an idiom convey "I'm hungry" or "I need to pee"? How do idioms convey engineering language or express new ideas or inventions never thought of before? How does an idiom describe what a target looks like, the color of someones eyes or that the key is hidden under the flowerpot?

 

[Ithekro]

The thing is, the Tamarians seemed to understand the humans just fine, and comprehended Picard's story. They just seemed frustrated by the human's lack of understanding their tales. One can almost imagine them communicated normally when needed, but culturally prefer metaphor and idioms to common words.

As for the Klingons, it is possible that they were a more stable culture at one point. They seemed entirely reasonable in the TOS days. So it could be the years of peace and lack of expansion waned on the upper classes and the lower classed managed to take over. It is not like that hasn't happen on Earth....more than a few times. It is just that after this fall, the remains of the civilization have starships and the will to conquer what they want, even if they aren't as civilized as they once where.

 

[Tenacity]

If you have no idea what or who Jalad, Temba and Tanagra are, then you cannot effectively communicate.

Would a Tamarian understand a computer having a "bug?"

The Tamarian likely do possess high level mathematics (and "kitchen math" too), and there may be a entirely separate technical language absolutely filled with techno-babble.

How does an idiom convey ... "I need to pee"?

Human Child: "I need to go number one.
Tamarian: "Huh?"
Human Child: "I need to GO!!"
Tamarian: "Go where?

 

[The Old Mixer]

"I'm hungry"

"Dagwood in the kitchen."

"I need to pee"

"Suzie, her bladder full."

 

[Tenacity]

"Suzie, her bladder full."

Tamarian: "Gall bladder?"

So it could be the years of peace and lack of expansion waned on the upper classes and the lower classed managed to take over.

Or the opposite, for a protracted period of time the "common people" held the reins of power, and then slowly there was change so that the heads of houses (and their politics) moved into the primary decision making position.

The warriors changed from (hypothetically) citizen soldiers, to a group that was consider by themselves to be separate and above the general population. Responsible to the council and the head of their own house.

In ENT (iirc) a Klingon lawyer told Archer that the warriors being in a predominate position in Klingon society was a relatively recent development.

 

[Ithekro]

That would be more on the level of the knights overtaking the monarchy, wouldn't it? With all the houses and nobles if the tone between Kor and Martok are taken that way.

 

[Tenacity]

Think the current European nobility taking over and replacing modern democratic governments, happening gradually over the course of decades. The government institutions would still be in place, but run by a different management group.

If the general population became disillusioned enough with the democratically elected governments, they began to look elsewhere for effective leadership.

 

[Spot261]

The problems with entirely idiomatic language is are 1: You have to understand the idiom 2: How was the thought conveyed before the idiom came into existence and 3: Idioms cannot express basic aspects of communication.

1. Even among speakers of the same language, people may not always understand the idiom being used. They lack the education or cultural references. This may not be that big a problem as all language has issues like this.

2. Idioms are invented and develop over time. So, how were the first thoughts initially conveyed before the idiom came about?

3. How does an idiom convey "I'm hungry" or "I need to pee"? How do idioms convey engineering language or express new ideas or inventions never thought of before? How does an idiom describe what a target looks like, the color of someones eyes or that the key is hidden under the flowerpot?

So you're saying we aren't all singing from the same songsheet?

 

[Shawnster]

Some of us don't even know how to sing.

 

[velour]

Tamarian: "Gall bladder?"

"No, no! It's Gul Dukat. My name is Dukat not bladder."

Tamarian: "Darmok and Dukat on the yellow ocean."

Cardessia - probably, many decades years later. If the Federation treat them like a post war Japan/Germany then yes.

Personally the Federation getting bigger is a bad idea. They are the like the Borg, except they ask if you want to be assimilated before they do it.

Cardassia becoming a member of the Federation would seem to me more like the situation with Turkey being a member of NATO than Germany in NATO or the US/Japan alliance.

It might make sense to a certain extent. Cardassia would provide the Feds a front line member nation in a strategic location near the wormhole and gamma quadrant; while for Cardassia, being a member means they would not have to face the threats from the gamma quadrant alone.

But because Cardassia would be a front line nation, they would always be a more militarized society than the rest of the Fed. Cardassia would probably often take preemptive military action beyond its borders with or without the rest of the Federation's blessing or liking; because to the Cardassians, the threats from the gamma quadrant -- as well as from the Klingons and Romulans -- will always feel greater and more imminent.

Plus, the Cardassians have their own imperialist colonial history that they can refer to and be proud of and maybe even yearn to recreate. In the long term, Cardassia may not be a reliable ally member if it were to be in the Federation, somewhat like how Turkey is currently not really a reliable NATO ally. It has its own interest that is different from the rest of the alliance. It's leaders are authoritarian and they might have delusions of recreating the Ottoman empire.

A bigger Federation is not necessarily a better and more trouble free Federation.

 

[Tenacity]

But because Cardassia would be a front line nation, they would always be a more militarized society than the rest of the Fed.

Do you think that would also be true of those Federation members historically abutting the Romulan neutral zone and the Klingon border?

 

[velour]

Do you think that would also be true of those Federation members historically abutting the Romulan neutral zone and the Klingon border?

I don't really know about those other members that are border nations.

Those members could be like Cold War-era Germany or Japan or the many small nations of NATO. They didn't really militarize their societies because they both had large numbers of US troops stationed on their territory. And they ultimately relied on the US nuclear umbrella for their security. That freed them from being overly militarized. In fact, Japan has a pacifist clause in their constitution as you probably already know. And I think both societies deliberately developed a pacifist mindset as well as a sort anti-military sentiment.

That could be the case with those Federation members.

Also, were those border members big imperial powers before becoming members of the Federation?

Cardassia has had an imperialist history. And it was a big power. Cardassian politicians and generals may appeal to the people to "make Cardassia great again". And I don't recall the Cardassian adopting a pacifist mindset after the war. And I don't think Starfleet would be willing to station large amounts of military resources and personnel in Cardassian territory, nor would I think Cardassia would allow a large foreign presence within their borders. The Cardassian seemingly would still be largely on their own to defend themselves.

 

[Tenacity]

And I don't recall the Cardassian adopting a pacifist mindset after the war

We don't know one way or the other, owing to the show that featured them ended immediately after Cardassia losing the war.

 

[Timo]

It [Prime Romulus] was [destroyed]. This was made clear in Trek XI.

Ah, but did it stay destroyed? Spock said he still had "time" after the kaboom, and used that time to deploy a substance we know has the ability to induce time travel. And Nero for his part swore he "prevented genocide".

Neither Spock's nor Nero's actions removed Nero's motivation for vengeance, so the "original Prime Romulus" might have been gone for good, along with Nero's wife. But all the time travel might well have allowed for a "restored Prime Romulus".

In any case, losing the Homeworld seems to be extremely bad business for interstellar civilizations. It would be nice to finally get a movie or an episode telling us why, but the fact of the matter stands, sort of. Yet there would be plenty of takers for the rest of the Star Empire, so UFP membership is by no means the only or likeliest outcome...

As regards postwar Cardassia, it seems that Bajor after the previous war was sitting in the middle of a power vacuum - but basically every planet in that vacuum was sympathetic to the Cardassian rather than the UFP cause, up to and including half of Bajor. Perhaps Starfleet had carved a hole in the Union, then stopped short of Bajor much like the US did not stop short of Okinawa, and refused to invade the Homeworld for the expected high death toll and low political return. That the Alpha Axis in this later war went all the way to the Homeworld might not make the locals any more sympathetic to the UFP than they had previously been; they'd just have to find a new anti-UFP patron, perhaps the Breen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Spock used the red matter to reverse the effects of the supernova? They've done weirder things on the show than that, so yes.

 

[Spot261]

Those members could be like Cold War-era Germany or Japan or the many small nations of NATO. They didn't really militarize their societies because they both had large numbers of US troops stationed on their territory

Just US?

And they ultimately relied on the US nuclear umbrella for their security.

You seem pretty dismissive of the rest of NATO and their contributions. Pax Americana notwithstanding article 5 of the treaty (the mutual defence clause - where a member state calls on the others for military aid) was never actually invoked during the cold war.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think Klingon society is more complex under the hood than we are allowed to see. Most of the Klingons other than Worf we see in TNG and DS9 are politicians or military. 'Honor' is a political slogan, and whenever we have a chance we see Worf is pretty much the only Klingon who practices it.

It seems likely that Klingon society is just as full of political subtleties and business understandings as human society is. Klingon scientists and engineers are not respected as a profession, but I bet the military has some pretty cushy positions for the good ones.