New Description for Seize the Fire

[Sci]

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been much mention of anti-Federation sentiment from Earth in the post-Destiny books, like a resurgence of Terra Prime or something on a greater scale.

Why would there be anti-Federation sentiment? The Federation saved countless lives and is the most important power in the rebuilding process.

And why on Earth of all places? Earth was essentially the only founding world of the Federation that was completely spared from bombardment.

well not on earth, i agree on that point. but in truth, the federation was basically the reason the borg launched their assault. if they had been a bit more careful, none of it would have happened. maybe not letting picard & co run around and getting themselves i all kinds of trouble.

Arguably, Earth was the reason the Federation was attacked, not the other way around. Really, isn't it more likely that the rest of the Federation would want to kick Earth out than that Earth would want out?

 

[kkozoriz1]

I'm actually surprised there hasn't been much mention of anti-Federation sentiment from Earth in the post-Destiny books, like a resurgence of Terra Prime or something on a greater scale.

Why would there be anti-Federation sentiment? The Federation saved countless lives and is the most important power in the rebuilding process.

And why on Earth of all places? Earth was essentially the only founding world of the Federation that was completely spared from bombardment.

Why Earth, and why the Federation? Because there are always idiots with misplaced blame who may have lost families on those worlds. I never said it would be logical, but such crap always pops up after a big event like that.

Or maybe I'm just a pessimistic cynic.

Or it could be that Earth WAS the target that brought the Borg to the Alpha Quadrant. Best of Both Worlds - target Earth. First Contact - Target Earth. The two previous times we saw the Borg in Federation space, they were targeting Earth not Andor or Tellar or Sherman's planet. New Providence colony was taken but nobody knew it was the Borg until they actually beamed down and saw the crater.

People could believe without much fear of contradiction that the Borg's primary target in the AQ was Earth. Their defeat on two previous occasions the reason they sent more ships this time.

 

[Christopher]

well not on earth, i agree on that point. but in truth, the federation was basically the reason the borg launched their assault.

No, the reason the Borg launched their assault is because they were a ruthless entity dedicated to the absorption or eradication of all obstacles. The Federation has been the most successful entity in known galactic history at halting the Borg, at stopping them from doing harm, and so the Borg chose to retaliate once they realized what an impediment the Federation had become to their relentless campaign of destruction.

The Borg are the ones responsible for the destruction caused by the Borg. The Federation fought against that destruction.

if they had been a bit more careful, none of it would have happened. maybe not letting picard & co run around and getting themselves i all kinds of trouble.

A specious argument. The Borg were already nosing around the Federation-Romulan border in 2364, months before Q brought the Enterprise into contact with the Borg. If Q hadn't hurried things along, then the Borg would've invaded soon enough anyway, and the Federation would've been far less prepared. If there'd never been a Federation, the Borg would've still come eventually, and there would've been no one to stop them from assimilating everyone. It's just bizarre to blame the victims here.

The anti-Federation stuff will be dealt with in Path of Disharmony I believe. A significant portion of the Andorian people seem to have having second thoughts about the Federation because:

1) Their population is declining and Federation science has been unable to stop it.
2) They suffered a huge population loss in Destiny that only made (1) worse.

Neither of which has anything to do with blaming the Federation for the Borg. That's more about what the Federation failed to do in the years before and the time since the invasion.

Alpha Centauri was also spared, IIRC, but since that's a human world, it doesn't change the "humans got off" script that much.

Deneva was a major human colony world, and it was completely exterminated. Same with Sherman's Planet. And there were probably plenty of humans living on Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Regulus, Coridan, and the other damaged or destroyed worlds.

 

[ares93]

well not on earth, i agree on that point. but in truth, the federation was basically the reason the borg launched their assault.

No, the reason the Borg launched their assault is because they were a ruthless entity dedicated to the absorption or eradication of all obstacles. The Federation has been the most successful entity in known galactic history at halting the Borg, at stopping them from doing harm, and so the Borg chose to retaliate once they realized what an impediment the Federation had become to their relentless campaign of destruction.

The Borg are the ones responsible for the destruction caused by the Borg. The Federation fought against that destruction.

i am not disputing that. the federation didnt kill their own people, the borg did. and you're right, they were the most successful faction against the borg. but my point was that, in the grand spirit of exploration, they didnt think twice about inviting everyone right onto their front porch. a mistake in my opinion. they were too overconfident.

if they had been a bit more careful, none of it would have happened. maybe not letting picard & co run around and getting themselves i all kinds of trouble.

A specious argument. The Borg were already nosing around the Federation-Romulan border in 2364, months before Q brought the Enterprise into contact with the Borg. If Q hadn't hurried things along, then the Borg would've invaded soon enough anyway, and the Federation would've been far less prepared. If there'd never been a Federation, the Borg would've still come eventually, and there would've been no one to stop them from assimilating everyone. It's just bizarre to blame the victims here.

they weren't exactly prepared at 359 either, but i see your point. i hereby stand corrected. and just to point out, i'm not blaming the victims, i'm simply stating that it woundn't be strange if anti federation sentiment, just as Benny said, would evolve. people do strange things in a time of grief.

 

[Christopher]

but my point was that, in the grand spirit of exploration, they didnt think twice about inviting everyone right onto their front porch. a mistake in my opinion. they were too overconfident.

There is no way that made them vulnerable to the Borg in any way. If anything, it made them stronger by allowing them to pool their resources with others and learn from them. It's never a mistake to connect with others. The mistake is to remain isolated and delude yourself into thinking that makes you stronger somehow.

 

[Steve Roby]

"Does anyone remember when we were explorers?" -- Picard

Not really, no. I remember Picard et al. ferrying VIPs, visiting Federation and allied worlds, fighting a few battles, dropping by Earth occasionally, but extended deep space exploration? Nope, can't really say I remember all that much of that.

 

[pookha]

i wouldnt mind so much if we were getting a titan follow up to synthesis . but, there isnt one on the schedule.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

well not on earth, i agree on that point. but in truth, the federation was basically the reason the borg launched their assault.

No, the reason the Borg launched their assault is because they were a ruthless entity dedicated to the absorption or eradication of all obstacles.

Why did the borg lauch their attack so soon? Why were they killing everyone, instead of just assimilating (highly atypical for them)?

That would be because Janeway (Earth born human, starfleet captain) destroyed one borg transwarp hub.

This was why the borg launched such a massive invasion so soon - NOT because they're ruthless, voracious, etc.

The Borg are the ones responsible for the destruction caused by the Borg. The Federation fought against that destruction.

The federation's (voyager's) actions are responsible for bringing the borg en masse in the alpha/beta quadrants, much sooner than they would have come.

It's just bizarre to blame the victims here.

The survivors of planets decimated by the borg will not see unschated Earth or starfleet as victims, but as callous, needlessly provoking and continuing to tease monsters lying in the darkness.

These survivors have good reasons for seeing starfleet as responsible for the borg coming so soon, in large numbers AND trying to kill everyone instead of just assimilating (Janeway succeeded in really annoying the borg).

If there's blame to be had for the massive borg invasion from 'Destiny', then this blame rests at starfleet's feet.

Deneva was a major human colony world, and it was completely exterminated. Same with Sherman's Planet. And there were probably plenty of humans living on Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Regulus, Coridan, and the other damaged or destroyed worlds.

How fortunate that the denevans are so stoic, yes?
I doubt romulan/klingon/etc, etc survivors will be equally stoic.

And only a minority of humans lived on Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Regulus, Coridan, etc.

The Federation has been the most successful entity in known galactic history at halting the Borg, at stopping them from doing harm, and so the Borg chose to retaliate once they realized what an impediment the Federation had become to their relentless campaign of destruction.

After 'Destiny' and starfleet's pathetic display against the borg there, you calling the federation as 'the most successful entity in known galactic history at halting the Borg' is baseless.

Species 8472 (groundkeepeers) came very close to destroying the borg;
Arturius's people kept the borg in check for centuries;
'The children of the strorm' defeated the borg throughout centuries, destroying hundreds of thousands of cubes, freeing their space of borg presence.

All were FAR more successful than the federation at stopping the borg.

 

[Christopher]

i wouldnt mind so much if we were getting a titan follow up to synthesis . but, there isnt one on the schedule.

Seize the Fire is the next Titan novel, regardless of its Typhon Pact "umbrella" label. True, it jumps forward nearly a year from the previous novel, but such gaps are hardly unprecedented in the TTN series.

 

[BrotherBenny]

The simple fact of the matter, IIRC, is that if it weren't for humanity, there would be no Borg. Captain Hernandez' crew actions and a demented Caeliar were ultimately responsible for the creation of the Borg and two of them were the first Borg drones.

Humans have a lot to answer for.

 

[Sci]

The simple fact of the matter, IIRC, is that if it weren't for humanity, there would be no Borg. Captain Hernandez' crew actions and a demented Caeliar were ultimately responsible for the creation of the Borg and two of them were the first Borg drones.

Humans have a lot to answer for.

Average Joe Human in 2381, upon hearing a non-Human say that:

"Excuse me? I have a lot to answer for because of something someone else did, just because we happen to be of the same species? Fuck you. I'm not responsible for their choices, I had nothing to do with it, and I'm as much a victim of the Borg as you are."

 

[Christopher]

The simple fact of the matter, IIRC, is that if it weren't for humanity, there would be no Borg. Captain Hernandez' crew actions and a demented Caeliar were ultimately responsible for the creation of the Borg and two of them were the first Borg drones.

Humans have a lot to answer for.

That's a complete misinterpretation of what happened. The raid by Hernandez's crew did not cause the temporal displacement. That was caused by a future civilization descended from the Caeliar, triggering the cataclysm in order to set in motion the sequence of events that led to their own creation. The humans just happened to be caught in the middle of it. They were victims.

(Looks around) And wait a minute, why are we rehashing a tired old Destiny debate in a thread about a Typhon Pact novel??

 

[kkozoriz1]

"Does anyone remember when we were explorers?" -- Picard

Not really, no. I remember Picard et al. ferrying VIPs, visiting Federation and allied worlds, fighting a few battles, dropping by Earth occasionally, but extended deep space exploration? Nope, can't really say I remember all that much of that.

More's the pity. The whole "new worlds, new civilizations" thing is a great idea for a TV series. maybe even a series of movies and spin off books.

 

[BrotherBenny]

That's a complete misinterpretation of what happened. The raid by Hernandez's crew did not cause the temporal displacement. That was caused by a future civilization descended from the Caeliar, triggering the cataclysm in order to set in motion the sequence of events that led to their own creation. The humans just happened to be caught in the middle of it. They were victims.

I didn't read it that way, Christopher, so I guess I'll have to go back and read it again since I got so far off base.

I hate temporal mechanics!

 

[TerraUnam]

When it comes to pointed invective, jealousy and misplaced aggression about Earth "getting off", they have their place in a Trek novel. At the beginning. Trek novels call people to forgo their baser instincts and reach for a higher calling. That's the end of the novel.

I think when we have these debates we talk past each other. The hurt feelings belong at the beginning, setting up something to be resolved.

 

[Christopher]

Feeling envious that Earth was spared worse destruction is something I can understand. That's a plausible basis for conflict. I have no problem with it. But all these convoluted attempts to argue that other species somehow have a legitimate grievance against humanity for "causing" the Borg in the first place -- those just don't hold together logically or factually. I've never been saying that there can't or shouldn't be any resentment or tension in the wake of what's happened. I just don't buy that that particular basis for resentment would credibly exist, except in the minds of people who already hated humanity anyway and thus were willing to embrace any cockamamie and irrational justification for it. And this new suggestion that cropped up recently, that Earth citizens would have some reason to resent the Federation in the wake of the Borg Invasion -- I just can't begin to follow that chain of logic.

 

[TerraUnam]

Well, with respect to the Borg, there was always a floating question of "If you met the people who started the Borg, and you knew how dangerous the Borg became, what would you say to them?" I imagine it would be an awfully heated discussion.

But Destiny showed us that the Borg were started by the desperate fusion of a starving Caeliar and equally starving humans. Ok, so some of that heated discussion gets directed to humanity. The Caeliar are off the stage, but humanity is still here.

Yes, it is "Sins of the Father" reasoning, but that's never stopped plots along that line before. Crazy and cockamamie are common enough, especially when you're grieving. This being Trek though, I'd expect higher reasoning to win in the end.

I do agree though that Earth resenting the Federation is out to lunch.

 

[Christopher]

Well, the question still remains, does the general public of the Federation even know the story of the Borg's true origin? I don't think so. Hernandez related it to Captains Picard, Riker, and Dax. Starfleet Command and the UFP government probably know it. But it's premature to assume that it's common knowledge.

I still say there are far better, more likely ways to generate conflict than that. As mentioned, the fact that Earth and Alpha Centauri got spared while other worlds got devastated is a straightforward, obvious, plausible basis for resentment. That works just fine. And some people, if they were angry enough, might blame Janeway, and by extension Starfleet, for provoking the Borg Invasion, overlooking the fact that the Borg would've assimilated the UFP sooner or later anyway. That would be a false conclusion, but it's plausible that upset people would jump to it.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I wonder how people would react if they found out Picard refused to send Hugh back with the invasive program in I, Borg. "You had a chance to stop them and you didn't even try!"

 

[BillJ]

I wonder how people would react if they found out Picard refused to send Hugh back with the invasive program in I, Borg. "You had a chance to stop them and you didn't even try!"

I've wondered how the Klingons and Romulans would feel if they knew that Picard had a couple of possible opportunities to cripple the Borg and didn't. Would they feel the blood of their citizens were on Picards hands?