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Never faced death?

Warped9

Admiral
Admiral
This is partially a repost of mine from another thread, but it touches on an issue that is raised periodically.

In TWOK a lot is made of Kirk having "cheated" death throughout his career including his "cheating" on his Academy no-win scenario test. It all serves to paint a picture of Kirk as someone who cheats his way through life as opposed to someone who has never accepted the very real possibility of defeat. The film flat out states that Kirk has never really faced death.

It's a wrong minded reinterpretation of the Kirk character as he had been portrayed up to that point.

The notion offered up in TWOK that Kirk had never faced death is utter nonsense. Of course he has. Numerous times.

There were times he thought McCoy or Spock were lost and he had no hand in retrieving them. He faced what he believed was certain death for himself and his entire crew even if it didn't actually pan out that way.

According to TWOK he took the test twice already before he tinkered with the programming for a third test. So his likely reaction in facing a so-called "no win scenario" was already known by his superiors. The third time around displayed his predeliction to exhaust all conceivable possibilities to avoid a disastrous outcome.

It would have been different if Kirk had prepared for the KM test by tinkering with the program on his first try. That would have been a bad showing.

But the underlying thought behind the idea of Kirk being a sneak and a cheat is a reinterpretation of the TOS Kirk. TOS Kirk was depicted as intelligent and extremely resourceful as well as fast on his feet. He also remained well composed under pressure. Those are all commendable qualities in an officer and leader. But TWOK seeks to undermine that by trying to paint Kirk as a cheat.

So who is to say that TOS Kirk ever cheated or felt he had to cheat on such a test? The test itself would reveal that Kirk would have utilized all his abilities to think of a way to "win" the scenario and face the inevitable outcome in much the same way we saw him face what he believed was likely certain death at moments seen throughout TOS.

It's not cheating if you can think of a way out of a life threatening situation where there remains a very good chance you can certainly lose. Otherwise you're only honourable if you just sit back and gracefully accept death?


“Where No Man Has Gone Before” – When Kirk goes after Gary Mitchell there is a very real chance he isn’t coming back. He underlines this by ordering Piper to tell Spock to subject the planet to a lethal dose of radiation in the event they don’t hear from him within a given time frame. Yes, he was gambling on maybe defeating Mitchell and surviving, but it wasn’t a given.

“The Naked Time” – This was a race against time to save the ship that that could easily have been lost. What if Spock’s intermix formula hadn’t worked.

“What Are Little Girls Made Of?” Kirk could easily have assumed that if Corby’s android Kirk duplicate were successful in being accepted as the real thing than he (the real Kirk) could be eliminated. Kirk made more than one desperate gamble here in order to survive.

“Miri” – McCoy could well have failed in finding a cure and Kirk and the rest were very close to the end.

“The Corbomite Maneuver” – Kirk’s bluff helped stave off their deaths (or so they thought), but until Balok revealed his real self and his true motives the possibility of certain death was all very real to Kirk and his crew.

“The Conscience Of The King” – As a youth Kirk faced the very real possibility of being executed on Kodos’ orders.

“Balance Of Terror” – Anytime the ship goes into combat there is the distinct possibility that you’ll be the loser and not survive.

"The Galileo Seven" - The possibility was very real that Kirk had lost Spock, McCoy and the rest aboard the Galileo. If Spock hadn't taken his own desperate gamble then they would have certainly have been lost.

“Arena” – Kirk’s gamble paid off, but at any time face-to-face with the Gorn Kirk could have been killed.

“The Return Of The Archons” – Kirk was lucky he was able to drive the Landru computer nuts because if he had failed he and his crew would have been toast.

“Shore leave” – Kirk watched McCoy die. At the time he had no idea McCoy could and would be resurrected.

“Space Seed” – Kirk was lucky McGivers saved his life. But what if McGivers had had a bit more stomach and really sided with Kahn?

“A Taste Of Armageddon” – Kirk and his landing party took advantage of lax Eminian security and the element of surprise to stay alive. But what if the Eminians had been more on the ball such that escape had been impossible?

“The Devil In The Dark” – Kirk was lucky on two counts. One, his reaction time was faster than those who had died before and, two, that the Horta had a measure of compassion and intelligence. Otherwise Kirk could have been burnt to a crisp like those before him.

“Errand Of Mercy” – Kor could easily have hauled Kirk off to the Mind-Sifter or had him killed immediately when his true identity was revealed. He and Spock were done for if not for the Organians’ intervention, but they didn’t know that yet.

“Operation—Annihilate” – Kirk sees his brother dead and watches his sister-in-law die. He then witnesses Spock infected by the parasites. And he also faces the real possibility of having to destroy all life on Deneva if they can’t find a solution.

“Amok Time” - When he believed he was being strangled to death Kirk didn’t know McCoy had staged his apparent death.

“Mirror, Mirror” – Kirk was lucky twice. Mirror Chekov didn’t kill him right away and one of Checkov’s henchmen switched sides. Kirk was also lucky Mirror Spock had a measure of compassion as well as sufficient curiosity to understand what was going on. Mirror Spock could have promptly arrested Kirk (and the landing party) and had them summuraily executed on the spot.

“The Doomsday Machine” – When the transporter goes on the fritz while the clock is ticking off the final seconds it had to occur to Kirk, “Oh shit, I ain’t gonna make it.”

“Friday’s Child” – Once Akaar was dead Maab could have summuraily executed Kirk and his party. But Maab was cautious enough to wait to see how things would develop.

“The Deadly Years” – Kirk was very near death’s door when they found a cure, but what if they hadn’t found a cure?

“Obsession” – What if the transporter had been destabilized and failed while trying to retrieve kirk and Garraovick during the antimatter explosion—a very real possibility. That said this was really an unecessary risk since the whole thing could have been done remotely.

“The Gamesters Of Triskelion” – Kirk could have lost the three-on-one combat and the Providers could have reneged on their agreement.

“The Immunity Syndrome” – When the ship finally lost all power to escape they had no way of knowing they would be thrown clear of the blast destroying the giant amoeba. And earlier Kirk had to face the possibility Spock was already dead.

“A Private Little War” – The Mugato could have ripped Kirk’s throat out or smashed his skull or a cure mightn’t have been found in time.

“Return To Tomorrow” – What if Sargon hadn’t been as powerful as he was. Kirk’s body could really have died and Kirk’s consciousness lost forever.

“The Omega Glory” – Tracey was already set to kill Kirk so if he had won the combat Kirk was likely done.

“Bread And Circuses” – The Proconsul had condemned Kirk to death and (as far as Kirk knew) it looked inevitable. Although it looked like he was prepared to still make a fight of it till the end he’s lucky Scotty intervened when he did because it wasn’t likely Kirk could win the situation he was in.

“The Enterprise Incident” – McCoy says it aloud: Kirk was lucky the Romulans didn’t insist on performing an autopsy after Kirk had apparently died. At any point during the events something could have gone drastically wrong and Kirk and crew might never have made it home.

“The Tholian Web” – Kirk was trapped in intephase and powerless to help himself. He was entirely dependent on Spock and with no guarantee Spock would manage to retreive him. Kirk had to face the very real possibility he wasn’t going to survive.

“The Empath” – Kirk had to think the Vians would likely kill him as they certainly gave every indication of such.

Star Trek – The Motion Picture – The ship was set to self-destruct in the event they failed to reason with Vger—a very real possibility.


I also haven't counted events during TAS when Kirk could have died as well as a few other moments during TOS. But what we have here certainly isn't a picture of a man who has never faced death for himself, those close to him or those he is responsible for.
 
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I agree, but have to point out that the TOS films have never exactly had perfect continuity with the original series (or even between films in some cases). So you are 100% correct that Kirk has faced death on many occasions, I believe that when Kirk in TWOK says he never faced death, he was talking about things other than literal death, such as middle age, and being obsolete or irrelevant.

Another interpretation could be that Kirk says he "cheated" in that his past actions have never affected him in such a way. He has never had to face someone he had wronged years earlier causing death and destruction to get to him, and the feeling that he is somehow responsible for it all. Nor has he had to face an estranged son, another mistake from his past that the scene addresses.
 
This is partially a repost of mine from another thread, but it touches on an issue that is raised periodically.

In TWOK a lot is made of Kirk having "cheated" death throughout his career including his "cheating" on his Academy no-win scenario test. It all serves to paint a picture of Kirk as someone who cheats his way through life as opposed to someone who has never accepted the very real possibility of defeat. The film flat out states that Kirk has never really faced death. The notion offered up in TWOK that Kirk had never faced death is utter nonsense.

Very interesting thread.

In the exchange with David, Kirk also said:

DAVID: Lieutenant Saavik was right. You never have faced a death.

KIRK: No, not like this. I haven't faced death. I've cheated death. I tricked my way out of death ...and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity. ...I know nothing.
"not like this," means he never suffered a loss on the level of Spock before. In the otherwise grand WOK--it is that total act of amnesia on the part of the screenwriters is what I find to be a nagging bug.

You pointed to a few, character defining losses suffered by Kirk (that he could not trick his way out of), such as the deaths of Edith or Mitchell. In each case, there, it was not only a situation he could not trick his way out of, but cut him to the core. The TWOK line would lead anyone to think that characters like Edith & Mitchell were (ultimately) not all so personal to him, which (to some viewers taking the script at face value) threatens to remove the drama / character defining importance of the episodes in question.
 
^^ Exactly right. I'd momentarily forgotten about Edith Keeler.

There's also Miramanee who was pregnant with his child.

As far as things biting Kirk in the ass years later. Kirk was haunted by the death of Captain Garrovick largely because he felt Garrovick's death was due to Kirk's own personal failure to react more quickly. And hence his obsession to destroy the creature years later.

Did Kirk wrong Janice Lester? Lester (in her embittered derangement) certainly thought so and set out to destroy him years later.
 
I don't think we should assume all deaths on Kirk's watch really touched him personally. Sure, he grieved for some folks he lost - but there are folks and there are folks, and Spock could well be head and shoulders above all others. Kirk isn't obligated to be egalitarian, fair or impartial in his choice of standards, nor would it be typical for the character to be any of those things.

I don't think any of the instances listed in the original message actually count, as all involve Kirk cheating death. He might have been uncertain of the outcome, but that definitely doesn't mean he would have come to grips with the nastier outcomes, intellectually or emotionally. In most of those cases, Kirk either gambled and won, or was fighting hard to keep deaths from happening, with little time to meditate on the deeper meaning of things - so, no "facing" necessary.

As for certain individual cases, "Shore Leave" had all the characters in an euphoric state: McCoy's death clearly didn't register for Kirk who was too busy being entertained. Miramanee and Rayna were also lost while Kirk was in a haze, and he no doubt got better soon thereafter; Keeler might be a borderline case of that, too. And losing Sam might have been something of a relief for Jim, considering how little he apparently thinks of his brother in ST5 - perhaps there was bad blood between the brothers?

There's another point about the ST2 dialogue relating to this. Kirk lost Spock when he thought he was winning. He was going to pull off yet another cheat: mains were back on line and Khan would be defeated with(out) a vengeance. The news of Spock's death came at Kirk's moment of victory, not in a hopeless situation where Kirk could just count the losses left and right and ponder how to turn those to his tactical advantage.

I don't see any of this as a mischaracterization, not for Kirk. Spock in the reversed situation might be more objective, but then again, he wouldn't lament a history of cheating...

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's not a cheat if you use your resources to out think the threat or situation. Otherwise it's saying you're supposed to be resigned to just lay down and die, which is b.s.

Granted not all deaths need weigh on Kirk's conscious, but to flatly state that Kirk has never faced death or loss is completely wrong. It was a case of the writers having amnesia or deliberately ignoring the series to put their own stamp on the character and redefine him as more of a nonchalant cowboy. And this was carried on throughout the remaining films and then ramped up by Abrams to turn the character into an unlikable jerk.


In those hours spent searching for the missing Galileo Kirk used every resource at his disposal to retrieve the shuttlecraft crew. In the end he had to face the very real fact they were lost, and they would have indeed been very dead if Spock hadn't taken his gamble. So in this one case alone it's not really Kirk's action that saves the shuttlecraft crew but Spock's. All Kirk did was delay his departure until the last possible moment. That's hardly cheating. And was Spock cheating by not simply accepting they were destined to burn up upon atmospheric re-entry? No, he was fighting to the end. Yes, it was a desperate act yet it was also a calculated risk. Spock reasoned Kirk wouldn't leave until the last possible moment and could possibly still be within sensor range of the planet.

Kirk faced death with Gary Mitchell, his best friend (at that point) who dies at Kirk's hand. Kirk had to let Edith Keeler die, a woman he loved. Kirk lost his own brother and his sister-in-law and watched his nephew and Spock suffer by the insanity parasites.

There are other examples, but the writing of TWOK seeks to paint Kirk as a much more shallow character than he was depicted throughout TOS.
 
In the end he had to face the very real fact they were lost
Except that he didn't. He kept fighting till the very last, dragging his feet with "space normal speed". That's James "Denial" Kirk for you - just as in all the other cases listed. There was no point of admitting defeat, and merely contemplating it doesn't count.

Kirk calls it "cheating", as in "cheating death". It's humorously similar to his case of cheating in the no-win scenario, even if the two usages of the word "cheat" are not perfect matches. But it is what Jim Kirk is about: he doesn't gracefully surrender to anything, be it death or discommendation or the laws of physics, and he never accepts the silver medal as an option.

There are other examples, but the writing of TWOK seeks to paint Kirk as a much more shallow character than he was depicted throughout TOS.
I'm of the exact opposite opinion - whatever depth TOS may have had would come exclusively from the inevitable diversity, i.e. inconsistency, in writing eighty'ish hours of the stuff, whereas ST2 actually attempts some simple kitchen psychology that hits right home.

It takes maturity to admit to one's weaknesses, and that's the point Kirk finally reaches in ST2, after three seasons (or, in this other reality, three movies) of profoundly juvenile adventures.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We must agree to disagree. I don't but TWOK's characterization when examples throughout TOS prove it patently false.
 
The line never sat well with me either, there were times when he ordered the self destruct to be activated, with every intention of following it through for a start.

The same James Kirk that in the previous movie was willing to die with the Enterprise to stop V'ger and save Earth most recently, or in his youth survived a massacre is not someone the least bit unfamiliar with death or it's prospect.
 
there were times when he ordered the self destruct to be activated, with every intention of following it through for a start.
I see no such times.

Kirk often threatens with self-destruct. This usually suffices. But we never see the villains call his bluff, and bluff it is, because the one time he doesn't have an audience he can impress with his bluff ("By Any Other Name"), he flat out refuses to consider self-destruct despite this being extremely necessary for the survival of the entire galaxy. Is he a coward? Perhaps. But he also bets that he will have a fighting chance by any other means, and wins the bet.

Considering this precedent, I in turn bet rigging the ship to blow in ST:TMP is just preamble to using that for bluffing V'Ger, too...

As for Tarsus IV, would the deaths really have touched young Jimmy? We don't know that anybody he cared for would have died, and it sounds Kodos was being quite sterile about how he massacred or butchered his victims ("died quickly, without pain"). The abstract disappearance of 4,000 strangers need not have left much of an impression on the boy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
He could not have bluffed V'ger, being inside something that could simply scan the Enterprise and determine the buildup of the antimatter pods would know what was happening.
 
Umm, that's exactly how he would bluff: by showing that there was going to be death galore in the future if and only if he made it happen. Just as always.

It would simply never come to that, because Kirk didn't have the gall. Order 2005 required a specific command from Jim Kirk, and he was not going to give it, because he was Jim Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't think we should assume all deaths on Kirk's watch really touched him personally. Sure, he grieved for some folks he lost - but there are folks and there are folks, and Spock could well be head and shoulders above all others. Kirk isn't obligated to be egalitarian, fair or impartial in his choice of standards, nor would it be typical for the character to be any of those things.

Spock is his best friend--but not the only close relation in his life.

Miramanee and Rayna were also lost while Kirk was in a haze, and he no doubt got better soon thereafter;

You can justifiably argue Miramanne, but with Rayna, he was of sound mind and fell in love. Of note, he ends the episode descibing himself as a "lonely man" and is in so much pain, that Spock used the "forget" technique to ease his pain. That suggests Kirk was deeply hurt by the loss of all that Rayna represented as a woman.

Keeler might be a borderline case of that, too.

Edith--like Rayna--was another woman with qualities so perfect for Kirk, that he could not avoid falling deeply in love with her. The horror of knowing she was fated to die only exposed the depth of his feeling's honesty. He was not in a haze, or in a "wrong" mind.


And losing Sam might have been something of a relief for Jim, considering how little he apparently thinks of his brother in ST5 - perhaps there was bad blood between the brothers?

A lack of continuity in TFF does not erase the gravity of the deaths experienced by Kirk in that episode.

There's another point about the ST2 dialogue relating to this. Kirk lost Spock when he thought he was winning. He was going to pull off yet another cheat: mains were back on line and Khan would be defeated with(out) a vengeance. The news of Spock's death came at Kirk's moment of victory, not in a hopeless situation where Kirk could just count the losses left and right and ponder how to turn those to his tactical advantage.

That paints Kirk as shallow--that he only considers loss if it is yanked from the jaws of victory. The dialogue is out of character because he has felt great loss before, and for any longtime fans who followed TOS from TV to movies, the line would instantly raise eyebrows, along with a "what the--? what are they talking about?"
 
About the "Never experienced loss like this before" thing...I think the WOK writers forgot about Kirk's Brother in "Operation Annihilate!".
 
You pointed to a few, character defining losses suffered by Kirk (that he could not trick his way out of), such as the deaths of Edith or Mitchell. In each case, there, it was not only a situation he could not trick his way out of, but cut him to the core. The TWOK line would lead anyone to think that characters like Edith & Mitchell were (ultimately) not all so personal to him, which (to some viewers taking the script at face value) threatens to remove the drama / character defining importance of the episodes in question.


I don't see the original post mentioning Edith Keeler; I was stunned that the OP didn't mention "City on the Edge of Forever." Did he not notice one of the best episodes?

The essence of TWOK is that Nicholas Meyer was being a good writer but not such a good ST fan. [Meyer heavily re-wrote the script without screen credit.]
 
You pointed to a few, character defining losses suffered by Kirk (that he could not trick his way out of), such as the deaths of Edith or Mitchell. In each case, there, it was not only a situation he could not trick his way out of, but cut him to the core. The TWOK line would lead anyone to think that characters like Edith & Mitchell were (ultimately) not all so personal to him, which (to some viewers taking the script at face value) threatens to remove the drama / character defining importance of the episodes in question.


I don't see the original post mentioning Edith Keeler; I was stunned that the OP didn't mention "City on the Edge of Forever." Did he not notice one of the best episodes?

The essence of TWOK is that Nicholas Meyer was being a good writer but not such a good ST fan. [Meyer heavily re-wrote the script without screen credit.]
I acknowledged that I somehow overlooked Edith Keeler. The instances I cited were not all inclusive and I acknowledged that I missed some.
 
Kirk faced death in every episode of TOS excepting maybe the tribble episode.
Yes and Meyer couldn't really care less about the details in TOS. Implying that Kirk didn't face loss in TOS does sell Kirk short.

However I don't think thats what is being said in TWOK. In TOS, Kirk stared death in the face and mostly won. If he didn't win he did the best anyone could in the circumstances. If he did make a mistake like he did with Gary Mitchell by not abandoning him straight away, by giving Khan free reign of the ship in Space Seed, he was able to make good in the end with his ingenuity and his cleverness (and with the help of his crew).
Even with Edith's death Kirk 'allowed' it to happen, With Miramanee he wasn't in his right mind. With Rayna her 'death' was probably inevitable.

In TWOK Kirk was not able to trick himself out of the situation like he did with the M5 or with the Mirror Universe Spock. He wasn't in control of the situation. He should have been. If he had been at the top of his game like he was in TOS he would have been able to look past the distractions and it would have been him sacrificing himself in the Warp Core instead of Spock.

In TWOK, Kirk eventually defeated Khan because despite his mistakes he is an excellent battle commander. But Spock was the one who had to pay for Kirk's mistakes. Spock made the sacrifice that should have been Kirks
 
About the "Never experienced loss like this before" thing...I think the WOK writers forgot about Kirk's Brother in "Operation Annihilate!".

To be fair, so did William Shatner in writing TFF.

From the originating thread:

Kirk seems like the type to see right through an illusion. He would never forget that the test was just a simulation, and his run of extraordinary luck in real-life adventures might make him subconsciously think that the universe can be manipulated in the same way as the test computers. How many no-win scenarios did he cheat his way out of in TOS? He talked half a dozen godlike computers to death. He defeated godlike aliens multiple times. Twice he used the corbomite bluff to save his ship when all seemed lost. Decker's sacrifice in TMP almost prefigures Spock's in TWoK, but Decker was not his best friend. Sure, Kirk agonized over the deaths of his crewmen, but it never hit home until he saw Spock's burned body in engineering.

Of course Kirk faced death. But he always found a way to escape it. Only in TWoK did that escape require the life of his best friend, which made it different. Up until that point in the movie, he had been escaping no-win scenarios the same way he did in the original series. The prefix codes and the hours/days trick were just two more "cheats" that saved the day, not unlike the corbomite maneuver or talking the M5 to death and leaving the shields down for Commodore Wesley. In the situation at the end of TWoK, however, he has run out of tricks, he has run out of ideas. All he can do is wait for Scotty to perform another unexpected engineering miracle or for Spock to suggest a scientific solution.

I will add to this the fact that Spock in TWoK died for Kirk. Sam was killed by aliens before Kirk was even there. Edith was killed in an accident before Kirk ever met her; it was already her destiny and Kirk knew that. In most of the situations during TOS where Kirk faced the death of his friends or himself, he did not have a chance to sit down and think about it - he was instead right in the middle of the action. TWoK is different from any presumed deaths of Spock or McCoy in TOS because the battle is over, and Spock's lifeless body was shot out of a torpedo tube. "Not like this," he tells David. Kirk has faced death before, but this is different, because when all is said and done, his best friend is dead. Even worse, his own hubris caused the situation in the first place, and he knows it.
 
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