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Nerys Ghemor's DS9 Episode Review Thread

I know this is a very controversial opinion, but I never really liked Progress. For me, it's 30 minutes of boredom. I have to admit, I liked the B-Story as much as I liked In the Cards, as it was about the best development Jake got in Season 1, but Mullibok came across as a grumpy old man, who had a grudge against pretty much everyone, and the episode ended on the conclusion that should have happened in the very beginning. I almost never support the state's line of reasoning, but if it's going to benefit thousands of individuals at the expense of only a few, then it should really go ahead. So I was never on Mullibok's side, and the whole of the A-Story was Kira not doing her job, and enjoying Mullibok's hospitality.

Maybe it would have been better for Mullibok to die in his own home, it would give Kira a reason to hate the provisional government for becoming the very things they profess to hate, and it would just make it a lot better episode. As it stands, Progress is my least favourite episode in Season 1.
 
Hm...I really felt there was more to Mullibok than just grumpiness--he actually started to remind me of Martin (Frazier's dad). Curmudgeonly, yes, but I think he had a bit more of a caring center than what you suggest. I didn't think he had a grudge against everyone--just governmental authorities that threatened his personal and property rights.
 
I liked Progress, and I felt it was another important step in Kira's road to healing from the Occupation. When the kicking shoe is on your foot by necessity of your position, it's hard to view those who have kicked you in the past in quite the same light. Kira did what she did because she was ordered to do so. The consequences of not doing so would simply mean someone else would come along and do the same thing to the old man, and she'd be out of a job and possibly facing reprisals. She preferred that it come from her, because the two of them at least had a connection, and I also suspect that she feared another Bajoran might be much more forceful with him.

Where Duet was one of the first times she was forced to look at any Cardassian as a person and not a monster, I think Progress was the second step, realizing that not everyone that she saw as a monster and not everyone who followed certain orders during the occupation enjoyed what they had to do.
 
Of course, when said orders consist of ripping people's tongues out, that's flat out inexcusable and we definitely cannot let the Cardassians off the hook. (And this is what I'm assuming the Cardassians did to Mullibok's companions.) The "I'm following orders" excuse doesn't cover atrocities, period. So it comes down to this...shouldn't there be a point where the reprisals are worth it???

Hey, as a Cardassian fan, I have to pose the difficult question--I can't just stick with easy answers.
 
Of course, when said orders consist of ripping people's tongues out, that's flat out inexcusable and we definitely cannot let the Cardassians off the hook. (And this is what I'm assuming the Cardassians did to Mullibok's companions.) The "I'm following orders" excuse doesn't cover atrocities, period. So it comes down to this...shouldn't there be a point where the reprisals are worth it???

Hey, as a Cardassian fan, I have to pose the difficult question--I can't just stick with easy answers.

Agreed. But I would also think that many Cardassians who did follow orders during the occupation weren't necessarily all perpetrators of terrible atrocities, and not every single order would have been a completely heinous one. That was the point I was making and that I think Kira had to face, that there was a good possibility that at least some of the soldiers and administrators were probably decent people forced to make decisions they didn't like but that they were told was for the greater good of the state.

It's one thing to sort of sit back and armchair judge what a person should or shouldn't do. It's another thing when you're one of the people caught up in the situation. I would point to the documentary Nanking as an example of what I mean. It's an extremely difficult thing to watch.

The interviews with the survivors in particular made me wonder how anybody suffers through what the Chinese did under Japanese occupation in WWII and retains an iota of sanity. However, I also had to think that all of those thousands of soldiers couldn't have ALL been sociopaths with no conscience, or when they got back to Japan, they would have turned their entire country into a slaughterhouse. Interestingly, some of them couldn't let go of the violence and the war madness, for lack of a better term, and did go on to commit terrible crimes and atrocities against their own people post war. Many of them simply tried to forget about it and push it from their minds. Some were so consumed and wracked with guilt that they committed suicide.

The question as to whether reprisals are worth resisting or not lies with the individual, but in a time of war, I don't think you're going to find many individuals acting as individuals. They're acting as a group or a pack, and groups and packs do terrible things that any individual comprising them would never do alone. The way Cardassians have been written, they are even more susceptible to this group mentality and pack thinking than humans. It drives every social interaction, no matter how innocuous.

There are no easy answers to this question, particularly when you're speaking of people who have been indoctrinated from an early age that loyalty to the state is everything and individuality is secondary. Until they have a reason to examine their ways, most will not, which is pretty much what the end of the Dominion was for them, a collective wake-up call that some chose to answer, some ignored, and some allowed to destroy them utterly.

After watching Nanking, not only did I wonder how the survivors retained their sanity, I wondered how the perpetrators did. I think the denial and shutting it out was their survival mechanism, because if they really allowed themselves to think about how they boiled babies alive, raped 5 year old girls, and drew and quartered women who resisted them, there is no way in Hell they couldn't just put a bullet in their brains.
 
And all of that might be--but any other route than to insist on absolute responsibility is morally unacceptable, because when it comes to atrocities, there can be no wiggle room. If you get caught, you face the consequences...period. I do not believe that leniency can ever be an answer for war crimes. Mind you, I'm not one for putting the verdict ahead of the trial, but there definitely needs to be a trial and "I was just following orders" cannot be accepted as an excuse.

Now, I can point to a couple cases where the individual in question has already done his or her penance. Tekeny Ghemor has, for instance--his entire life after his tour on Bajor has been his penance for Kiessa Monastery, and I consider his case closed due to the fact that he repented of his own volition and has worked to bring down the corrupt regime.

I don't think every soldier who was in the war should be put to death, by any means. Some might not even get long sentences at all, or might do their penance in other ways--community service, of a sort. But I do think they have to be made to face what they've done in no uncertain terms. I'm strongly reminded of that scene in Band of Brothers where the civilians who chose to ignore the death camps in their backyards were made to go in and dispose of the bodies. That was a VERY apt and appropriate punishment. They wanted to deny? Well, they couldn't any longer--and given the idiots we've seen these days that HAVE tried to deny the Holocaust, it's a damn good thing we had more people around to see the evidence firsthand, and not just Allied soldiers.

Now in modern day...I would say that after such service should come counseling and rebuilding. Cardassians should have to know for a fact what happened, never be able to deny it. That said, they should not have to hate themselves simply because they ARE Cardassian--rather, strive to redefine what being a Cardassian means. But not before facing the truth to the point where it can never, ever be denied.
 
And all of that might be--but any other route than to insist on absolute responsibility is morally unacceptable, because when it comes to atrocities, there can be no wiggle room. If you get caught, you face the consequences...period. I do not believe that leniency can ever be an answer for war crimes. Mind you, I'm not one for putting the verdict ahead of the trial, but there definitely needs to be a trial and "I was just following orders" cannot be accepted as an excuse.

Now, I can point to a couple cases where the individual in question has already done his or her penance. Tekeny Ghemor has, for instance--his entire life after his tour on Bajor has been his penance for Kiessa Monastery, and I consider his case closed due to the fact that he repented of his own volition and has worked to bring down the corrupt regime.

I don't think every soldier who was in the war should be put to death, by any means. Some might not even get long sentences at all, or might do their penance in other ways--community service, of a sort. But I do think they have to be made to face what they've done in no uncertain terms. I'm strongly reminded of that scene in Band of Brothers where the civilians who chose to ignore the death camps in their backyards were made to go in and dispose of the bodies. That was a VERY apt and appropriate punishment. They wanted to deny? Well, they couldn't any longer--and given the idiots we've seen these days that HAVE tried to deny the Holocaust, it's a damn good thing we had more people around to see the evidence firsthand, and not just Allied soldiers.

Now in modern day...I would say that after such service should come counseling and rebuilding. Cardassians should have to know for a fact what happened, never be able to deny it. That said, they should not have to hate themselves simply because they ARE Cardassian--rather, strive to redefine what being a Cardassian means. But not before facing the truth to the point where it can never, ever be denied.

I agree, NG, being Cardassian fans means we grapple with these difficult questions. :) I also agree ENTIRELY with the idea that everyone must take responsibility and make penance however they can. That said, I have a few problems...

Hmmm, well, you say "leniency can never be an answer for war crimes". How do you define "war crimes"? Who decides what is a "crime" or not? Why should we trust that judgement? Those in wartime who insist that performing certain deeds is a crime have almost certainly engaged in acts I consider morally unjustifiable- who punishes them? Consider the Vietnam My Lai massacre. The USA made a big deal about the murders- yet had no problem with forcing ITS OWN SONS to accept appalling suffering and death, and showed NO repentence for its actions. So the American government had no desire to protect its sons, instead desiring to essentially enslave them, making it QUITE CLEAR that their lives and safety meant little or nothing and that their deaths were somehow perfectly acceptable, yet the deaths of Vietnamese villagers was treated as an outrage, and those very young men who were the victims of American society were those who received hatred and punishment. Did society as a whole take responsibility for its mistreatment of the soldiers? No, that responsibility was brushed aside and ignored in favour of pointing the finger and making those soldiers demons. That, I must say, is not right.

In many cases, when asked to harm others or else perform acts most would consider immoral, the soldiers so ordered either perform these deeds or, very likely, they will be shot. To say "following orders" is not an excuse is to insist that accepting your own murder is preferable. You're basically suggesting that the soldier in question should automatically be willing to sacrifice his life for the victim's- and the victim will undoubtedly suffer anyway, of course, so the sacrifice in practice means little. When asking these soldiers to accept reprisals for refusing orders, you're essentially telling them, "your life is less important than these people's and you should be willing to lay down that life..." Well, that's all soldiers are ever told. That's what every young man drafted into a military is told, that his life means nothing compared to any number of other people's concerns. He should fight for his country, for his family, because it's his duty, blah, blah, blah- he should fight in other's wars, often whether he wants to or not. Surely denying them the right to the "orders" defence is simply another form of that oppression- trying to guilt these soldiers into accepting their own death and their own lack of worth to further someone elses' satisfaction? Its a callous disregard for these people- they are, as ever, simply pawns of other people's ideologies.

Saying all the soldiers in a war must be made to face what they've done- I agree entirely- but if you say it's just the soldiers and not every one else you're punishing the victims just as much as if you were blaming the victims of the recognized atrocities. No-one ever has empathy for the soldiers who are the primary victims of war for the very reason that they want to be able to shrug off those soldier's deaths, be comfortable with sacrificing them- and that includes sacrificing them in peace as well as war, making them the demonized scapegoats for their society that enables them to avoid responsibility themselves. From believing it's okay to send your sons off to die in battle, it's very easy to progress to believing they should either take a bullet to save a stranger-- or else take a bullet in punishment for their society's sins- for YOUR sins, because you, whoever you are, share in that responsibility.

Each individual must take responsibility for their actions, I agree ENTIRELY. I am in TOTAL agreement that each soldier must come to accpt responsibility for their actions. But how is the soldier to make penance and take responsibility if the society who put him in that position- and gravely mistreated HIM, refuses to accept responsibility, indeed uses him as the scapegoat and mistreats him further? That will make him- justifiably so- far LESS likely to acknowledge his own crimes.

It's the soldier's own society, in its entirety, that must face what it has done- chief among what it has done being the very practice of conditioining its soldiers into doing these things and telling them orders are to be followed, or else. Everyone who raised their son with the understanding that he must fight for his country is equally responsible when that act of nationalism translates into atrocities. We ALL have a responsibility for war, not just the soldiers participating, because those soldiers are only in that position in the first place due to the ideologies held by the populace as a whole and how those ideologies are applied to our children. Why should the unlucky people pressured or conditioned into being the ones who must live in the darkness take sole responsibility while the more fortunate members of society shrug it off and point fingers? THAT is denying the truth in my eyes. War crimes trials are often simply ways for society as a whole and its leaders specifically to avoid their responsibility by instead throwing all the responsibility on their unfortunate soldiers. I don't trust war crimes tribunals for this very reason- it's a means of wiping your hands of your own crimes by highlighting those of others to the exclusion of yours- even if the others only committed their crimes under your influence.

As for atrocities not being denied, atrocities are ALWAYS selectively remembered. The very atrocities people in our nations use to make points about "never forgetting" and "making truth known" have been selectively picked based on various criteria, chief among them who committed the acts and who the victims were. And for each atrocity that is made the focus of attention, another is brushed aside and, yes, actively ignored or even denied, because it's not the "right" people being victimized to generate pathos, or not the "right" perpetrators to generate the correct "us and them" attitude. Our societies right now are deniers.

Perhaps most of all, they deny the atrocities they committed against their own sons.




................................

EDIT: I thought I should include an example to further justify what I wrote. I know from his writings- I don't know him personally, but his works- a British veteran of the Second World War, who, under orders, once shot- executed- a 12 year old boy who was spying for the enemy. He was a good man, and he didn't try to avoid responsibility or brush it off. He was never able to forgive himself for murdering a child, and I'm pleased he had the courage to face up to his actions and seek genuine penance. But, why hasn't his society, and that of the boy for that matter seeing as they put the child in that position- made the same move? Britain, and almost all other nations involved in the war, still glorify in ideas of "heroism" and refuse to accept responsibility. It is ENTIRELY appropriate that this man acknowledge his guilt and try to make amends, but it is not fair that he should be made to do so when the society behind him doesn't. I can imagine the anger I'd feel if he were tried as a "war criminal" by the very same society who WANTED him to be what he became in that war.
 
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DN--Regarding the Vietnam War, I think McNamara should've been punished. Mind you, I was not alive for Vietnam so my knowledge of it may be incorrect, but I seem to recall that he outright lied at times and in the making of major decisions, and that those lies directly contributed to the deaths of far more soldiers. Basically, a case of reckless disregard right at the top.

It is one thing to directly engage fellow soldiers on the other side--it sucks, but killing a uniformed soldier in combat is to kill someone who is clearly identified as one who would attempt to kill you as well. The same thing if someone is directly caught in aggressive acts against your side (i.e. the evidence is obvious)...and sadly due to the enemy disregard for the rules of war these days, in going into combat without uniforms, I must say that.

Given the previous context--i.e. the actions of the Cardassians--my solution is that any Cardassian leader who is caught has to be held responsible to the utmost, has to be punished. Those lower on the ladder have to be evaluated as well, and must go through a process of rehabilitation and reconciliation. Some of them are going to see the truth very quickly and may have even seen it already--your Tekeny Ghemors already know it. These are the people who can very quickly return to productive society and who will hopefully not just return but lead others. Others will be more difficult and if they have ordered atrocities or are unrepentant, they cannot escape punishment for what they've done.

We've tried punishing entire societies before. I believe the Treaty of Versailles was one such attempt--and boy did THAT ever backfire. This again points to the need to go for PERSONAL responsibility: that's the only thing that's even reasonably equitable.
 
We've tried punishing entire societies before. I believe the Treaty of Versailles was one such attempt--and boy did THAT ever backfire. This again points to the need to go for PERSONAL responsibility: that's the only thing that's even reasonably equitable.

Good point. :) I certainly don't believe one society has the right to "punish" another- as you say, we all know that backfires spectacularly. I also agree entirely that personal responsibility must be acknowledged and placed foremost- but I personally believe personal responsibility must always be shared with social responsibility. We must all accept responsibility for our own actions, but also for those of others who actions were the result of our collective ideologies and beliefs. Only some members of society are the hand, but everyone makes up the heart, and the hand cannot strike if the heart is truly against it. The hand follows the directives of the heart. I acknowledge this is certainly difficult in societies which are repressive, because the heart is forbidden to change its directives and those in authority resist any attempt for it to do so, but I know we agree that attempt must be made, as courageous citizens (real-life Tekeny Ghemors and Natima Langs) make the effort.

That's where I believe people go very wrong- they're all for the idea of soldiers "serving society", but- hypocritically- when it comes to acknowledging those soldiers as part of that society, just as they are part of that society, they refuse to acknowledge their unity with those soldiers- the very same unity they invoked to justify treating the soldiers the way they did. Soldiers are often presented- both in fictional societies like Cardassia and in reality, as either "monsters" (if they're the enemy or, in more enlightened times, if they are war criminals) or "heroes" (if they're "good" soldiers on the right side)- never "people like us". Normal people like us are not monsters or heroes- so soldiers can't be people like us. The empathy isn't there, only the distancing, and I believe this is simply a means for people- and mainstream society as a whole- to avoid their responsibilities by denying that they share the same ideological mindset exhibited by the soldiers.

For what it's worth, I personally would rather be shot than harm a defenceless person. If I were asked to execute a 12 year old, or commit any other act I considered unacceptable, I would refuse even if the consequence was my death. "Some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved", and if my death helps make the point that such actions are unacceptable, and helps people find a better way, then that is worth dying for. But that is my choice, and I am comfortable making it because I know myself to be free. I have my own ideologies and understanding not forced upon me by others. I don't think I have the right to insist others must make that sacrifice when in many cases they don't share my freedoms, and my luck.
 
There simply isn't a way to punish a society without causing an immense backlash. I think you can HELP a society--with great care, of course, not to impose too greatly--but that's why ultimately you have to go the personal route when it comes to atrocities: it may not be 100% ideal, but it's the only option that punishes the guilty while avoiding unneeded harm to innocents. And along with whatever positive reinforcement you can offer, you must also have the negative: the example of their punishment, as long as the punishment is in line with the nature of their crimes, may help others to see that if they do the same, they too will be held responsible.

If we're talking about a situation where we know someone is defenseless--absolutely, I would lay down my life for their sake.

However, if we're talking about armed combatants, that's a different story. I think I mentioned, too, in a prior thread that if the situation ever got so bad that there was a draft reinstated, I would go down to the recuriter's office of my own volition. I would sign up for the Air Force so that I could go in someone else's place.

Believe me--I have the utmost respect for soldiers. And that's why I would volunteer if the situation got bad enough that the military might actually WANT me. (If you saw what a scrawny little thing I am, you'd understand that statement. ;) )

(Why Air Force? I'm an Air Force brat--go with what I know! ;) )
 
I think the main problem I have with taking such a cut and dried position is that our fictional Cardassians and definitely our real world Japanese soldiers of WWII were brainwashed, some nearly from birth forward, to believe that they are superior people and that their enemies are lesser beings, not equals, not deserving of respect, not deserving of life. To expect people who have been taught a corrupted ideology from birth to somehow come to a contrary conclusion on their own or to behave in a way counter to what they've been taught as an absolute truth is unrealistic and unfair. That would be like somebody coming along and punishing you for not thinking you're superior to others or that others deserve violent treatment.

In that case, as DN said, the ideology and those espousing it and teaching it to the youngsters are responsible. Those who act out their venomous pogroms at the lower levels are victims as much as the people who fall under their guns and swords. If you had been brought up to believe in no uncertain terms that your people were the only people who counted and that everyone else was a resource to be exploited, without some pretty serious intervention during your formative years or a very traumatic experience later in life, you'd never have a reason to believe any other way.

Ghemor and Lang both came from civilian backgrounds and were not indoctrinated by the military or the Obsidian Order. They likely had influences in their lives that allowed them to see things in a different way and from a different perspective. Setting them up as moral examples isn't quite fair, because they were not educated in the same way as some of their worse (from our perspective) counterparts.

I believe that at least some people who seek to deny mass scale atrocities, certainly not all of them, but some, are also victims of remnants of that ideology. It's the nationalistic belief taken to an extreme that your people are all good and decent people and therefore could never be responsible for such heinous things, and those others are so vile that they'd make up any lie at all to discredit your people and drag them down.

You'll never destroy a poisonous ideology by punishing those raised to it. You'll just give them more reasons to hate. The best counter to such things is to humanize people, not dehumanize them. Find ways to force them to connect to those they see as lesser, and they will no longer be able to justify their actions with the belief that they are different and special. That takes time, lots of time, and cooperation between nations on a scale that most of us have shown so far we're not capable of achieving. We're only able to do that with people we "agree" with or who aren't a threat in terms of resource consumption or armaments.
 
You'll never destroy a poisonous ideology by punishing those raised to it. You'll just give them more reasons to hate. The best counter to such things is to humanize people, not dehumanize them. Find ways to force them to connect to those they see as lesser, and they will no longer be able to justify their actions with the belief that they are different and special.

I agree :)
 
...if the situation got bad enough that the military might actually WANT me. (If you saw what a scrawny little thing I am, you'd understand that statement. ;) )

:lol: Oh, I'm quite scrawny myself! I'm also the clumsiest guy around. The military would probably try to repost me to the opposing side...
 
Also, speaking to the issue of soldiers not mattering to their own people, during one of the many episodes of the Nanking massacres, the Japanese were ordered to kill so many Chinese at one point that they only way they could figure out how to do it was to set up a deadly crossfire. They shot hundreds of their own men during that particular incident and were told it was an acceptable casualty.
 
PSGarak--I'm afraid you actually undermined yourself by using Tekeny Ghemor as an example of someone not "indoctrinated" by the military. Tekeny began his career when he was just 18 years old! And he was with them all the way up to the point of his exile. If we assume he was one of the very first troops in during the Occupation, then he has a 40-50 year career under his belt. Joret Dal is another example--as far as we know, career military, and yet he WAS able to see what was going on.

In some ways, those in the military actually seem, from my observations of the Cardassians, to be at an advantage when it comes to being able to see the truth--simply because they get out and they're able to see it firsthand.

While there are some you'll be able to reach by kindness, I do not believe that any sort of leniency can be shown for those who did things that are over the line. By that sort of argument, we should never have had the Nuremberg trials and never should've gone after any of the SS. (And before someone makes some stupid "Godwin" comment, take note that this is an APPROPRIATE comparison given Cardassian activities!)

I'm not talking about punishing people just for BELIEF, either--but for ACTION. If they do something that is beyond the ordinary conduct of war (someone who simply kills enemy soldiers, or, say, steals to feed themselves or their troops, is not the kind of person I'm suggesting should be brought up on charges), then you DO have to send a message that there's a new sheriff in town.

To me, though, any time you try to claim that someone's a mere victim of their society, then it denies the role of individual choice and you might as well excuse everybody for what they do. However difficult it is, the alternatives (allowing everything to go unpunished, or punishing the entire society) are simply unacceptable.
 
I was under the impression from one of the books that Ghemor came from a civilian background. I have yet to rewatch the DS9 episode that covers his history, so in that I was mistaken. I do still believe that he is an exception to the rule in Cardassian society, one of the reasons that at least some people were trying to frame him as a traitor.

Nor do I believe that everyone should be let off the hook no matter what they did, but if you want to punish every soldier who crossed the line in war, you will be punishing thousands, if not millions, of people. What good does that do? Better to combat the ideologies that spawn such acts before it gets to that point than making an example of every single person who follows unconscionable orders. One, it's an impossibility, and two, I genuinely believe that to hold people who have been brainwashed accountable for everything they do under that brainwashing is just as criminal as anything they may have done. It's a perpetration of further violence and atrocity, and it's targeting the wrong individuals. Target those who put them in that position and used them at a distance.
 
The reference for Tekeny's biography comes straight from "Ties of Blood and Water"--he states there he was 18 when he served on Bajor. You may be thinking of Alon Ghemor instead...as far as I know, he came from a civilian background.

The leadership has to be the first to be taken down in such circumstances: I really do not believe we're disagreeing there.

But my thing is this. There are definitely cases where rehabilitation is possible--I mean, I just got done reading Long Way Gone, which is a book by Ishmael Beah about his experiences as a child soldier in Sierra Leone. And it is really amazing to see what a long way he's come since then, to include finding forgiveness for himself and others. So yes, there are most certainly cases where you can bring someone around (and believe me, in those cases, that person's memories are burden enough and then some). As I believe I've said before, this is especially true of those at low levels in the command structure.

But if you've got someone who's unrepentant, even after given the opportunity to do so, or who has done something particularly heinous...I simply do not think the responsibility can be evaded. If you're adhering to a pacifistic ideology and suggesting that anyone who takes a life falls under the "atrocity" category (which is what I think some people may be doing here), that's not what I'm trying to suggest. There's a point where no matter what, it comes down to choice. We have seen that it is possible to witness the truth and to be a catalyst for change (and I don't mean "change" in the hackneyed, political sense of the 21st century), even in the worst of circumstances. If all anybody has to do to evade any sort of responsibility is point to someone else, then there will not be any accountability whatsoever, and to my mind that is simply intolerable.

It would be nice if we could stop every bad ideology before it ever infected anybody else...but unfortunately it just doesn't work that way, and we are left to deal with the widespread fallout. :(
 
I don't think we're saying entirely different things, at least not after that last post. No, I'm not counting the taking of a life in war as an automatic atrocity (although one could argue that the necessity for it in a war is, in and of itself, an atrocious circumstance). I am, however, counting the killing of civilians, something that almost any soldier will tell you is impossible to avoid in wartime, particularly in closely packed urban environments. There have also been orders to destroy entire villages because it was impossible to tell who was an enemy spy or soldier and who really were innocent villagers. In those cases, I place a lot more blame on the soldiers and spies hiding with their civilians than the enemy soldiers who are threatened in such circumstances.

I just think it's a dangerous precedent to go after low level soldiers for following command decisions. When it's for something particularly heinous such as rape, the killing of infants, etc. I say, yes, hold all participants accountable. As DN said, though, who gets to decide what is counted as an atrocity and what isn't? To what court should they answer? Those aren't always cut and dried answers, and there's not always a clear case of whose jurisdiction it falls under. Ideally, you'd like for each country to weed out its own, but in the case of Japan, many known war criminals, even some who were executed as such, are enshrined right along with those who fought a cleaner fight. In our own country certain people I won't name because I don't care to start a political storm in this thread have gotten away with what I and many others in the world see as war crimes, and yet they walk free and un-prosecuted. Who gets to bring these people to justice when the countries themselves refuse to acknowledge wrongdoing?

EDIT: I would like to hear a soldier's opinion on this debate if there are any out there who are willing takers. I tried to get my uncle's perspective on WWII, but he refused to speak of it. I know he was at the Battle of the Bulge, so I can imagine some of why he didn't wish to recount his experiences, but I always wondered what secrets he decided he'd rather take to his grave than share with his family. He was a good man, a very good man, and yet war scarred him in a way none of us who loved him ever got the chance to know.
 
PSGarak--in your uncle's case, there's not even reason to think it was any particular horrible secret. Just seeing war and suffering itself is reason enough.
 
PSGarak--in your uncle's case, there's not even reason to think it was any particular horrible secret. Just seeing war and suffering itself is reason enough.

I'm not so sure, actually, but my reasons for my suspicions delve into family history and things that wouldn't have much bearing on this thread either way.
 
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