NERO was the most successful villian of all of the films

[Jeyl]

Burke and Samno did. For all we know Cartwright or Valeris orchestrated it. There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan.

Oh, yeah. Him being on the ship when it happened, not being anywhere around Gorkon during the massacre, and of course him being the captain of the Klingon Ship that fired torpedoes at Chronos One! Ya, it's easy to see how he had nothing whatso ever to do with the plan to assassinate Gorkon

 

[Garm Bel Iblis]

Burke and Samno did. For all we know Cartwright or Valeris orchestrated it. There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan.

Oh, yeah. Him being on the ship when it happened, not being anywhere around Gorkon during the massacre, and of course him being the captain of the Klingon Ship that fired torpedoes at Chronos One! Ya, it's easy to see how he had nothing whatso ever to do with the plan to assassinate Gorkon

That's like saying Bin Laden hit the towers. He didnt, he planned it and ordered it but his henchmen carried it out.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Chang killed the Klingon Chancellor...

Assasinating the Klingon Chancellor is probably a popular past time. The Klingon version of Vegas most likely runs a spread on it.

 

[Jeyl]

That's like saying Bin Laden hit the towers. He didnt, he planned it and ordered it but his henchmen carried it out.

So you recede your previous statement that "There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan."? All of the evidence points to yes.

 

[Garm Bel Iblis]

That's like saying Bin Laden hit the towers. He didnt, he planned it and ordered it but his henchmen carried it out.

So you recede your previous statement that "There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan."? All of the evidence points to yes.

My point was Chang didn't pull the trigger.

 

[Jeyl]

That's like saying Bin Laden hit the towers. He didnt, he planned it and ordered it but his henchmen carried it out.

So you recede your previous statement that "There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan."? All of the evidence points to yes.

My point was Chang didn't pull the trigger.

So? Doesn't make him any less guilty than the person who pulled the trigger. Might as well say that Nero wasn't the one who destroyed Vulcan because he wasn't the one who pressed the button that released the red matter.

 

[JarodRussell]

Khan killed Spock. And that death scene was way more powerful than anything in the new movie. So I'd say Khan wins.

That's like saying Bin Laden hit the towers. He didnt, he planned it and ordered it but his henchmen carried it out.

So you recede your previous statement that "There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan."? All of the evidence points to yes.

My point was Chang didn't pull the trigger.

Since you mentioned 9/11... is Osama less guilty then the guys who flew the planes? Or take WWII. I'm sure Hitler never personally killed anyone in World War II or the Holocaust. He orchestrated it, so he is eventually responsible.

 

[Garm Bel Iblis]

Khan killed Spock. And that death scene was way more powerful than anything in the new movie. So I'd say Khan wins.

So you recede your previous statement that "There's no evidence that Chang was involved with that part of the plan."? All of the evidence points to yes.

My point was Chang didn't pull the trigger.

Since you mentioned 9/11... is Osama less guilty then the guys who flew the planes? Or take WWII. I'm sure Hitler never personally killed anyone in World War II or the Holocaust. He orchestrated it, so he is eventually responsible.

He's just as guilty as Charlie Manson isguility. My point wasn't guilt, it was the ACT. Chang didnt' fire the phaser that killed Gorkon, buthe planned it and ordered it, but he didn't commit the murder.

 

[Withers]

It wasn't as though previous villains didn't have ambition to do things as massive and reprehensible as Nero did. Most of them wanted to wipe out a planet or a solar system or a species. They just didn't accomplish what they set out to because of the heroes of any given movie.

So my question is this; did Nero really succeed or did the heroes of XI just... fail?

He's just as guilty as Charlie Manson isguility. My point wasn't guilt, it was the ACT. Chang didnt' fire the phaser that killed Gorkon, buthe planned it and ordered it, but he didn't commit the murder.

That's a silly distinction... one I might add, that would make absolutely no difference in a 21st century court of law, let alone one in the 23rd. Orchestrating someones murder is tantamount to committing it yourself. I don't think it can be said any plainer than that.

-Withers-​

 

[Ryan8bit]

Yeah, that is a strange distinction, especially since Nero ordered someone to launch the red matter.

 

[JarodRussell]

So my question is this; did Nero really succeed or did the heroes of XI just... fail?

Well, they failed. Because the new versions of these characters aren't as smart as the originals used to be.

 

[startrekrcks]

it was Kirk and the Enterprise that didn't fail just Nero that did apart from destroying Spock's home planet and killing Kirk's father and Spock's mother.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So my question is this; did Nero really succeed or did the heroes of XI just... fail?

-Withers-​

They failed to save Vulcan (so thats a win for Nero). But they got him in the end.

Well, they failed. Because the new versions of these characters aren't as smart as the originals used to be.

Standard story telling. There's usually a "loss" before the heroes win and defeat the villian. More dramatic than the heroes winning from start to finish.

Khan killed Spock. And that death scene was way more powerful than anything in the new movie. So I'd say Khan wins.

Nah, Spock killed himself. Khan didn't take the cap off that cylinder. At best, Khan was indirectly responsible.

George Kirk's death was much more dramatic and moving than Spock's. Better acted and directed too.

 

[Set Harth]

George Kirk's death was much more dramatic and moving than Spock's. Better acted and directed too.

I wouldn't go that far.

 

[JarodRussell]

George Kirk's death was much more dramatic and moving than Spock's. Better acted and directed too.

I wouldn't go that far.

Nah, it's okay. I think he's afraid he dies the day he agrees with me on something.

Standard story telling. There's usually a "loss" before the heroes win and defeat the villian. More dramatic than the heroes winning from start to finish.

It's even more dramatic when the heroes did their best and failed, which is not what happened in this movie.

 

[Nerys Myk]

George Kirk's death was much more dramatic and moving than Spock's. Better acted and directed too.

I wouldn't go that far.

I happen to have a low opinion of the way that scene was constructed. Not sure if its Meyer or Nimoy and Shatner who are at fault. Shatner does a better job in STIII when the E goes down in flames.

 

[JarodRussell]

George Kirk's death was much more dramatic and moving than Spock's. Better acted and directed too.

I wouldn't go that far.

I happen to have a low opinion of the way that scene was constructed. Not sure if its Meyer or Nimoy and Shatner who are at fault. Shatner does a better job in STIII when the E goes down in flames.

I find Shatner's simple "No..." much more powerful than the whole "My God, Bones, what have I done?" dialogue.

 

[Nerys Myk]

George Kirk's death was much more dramatic and moving than Spock's. Better acted and directed too.

I wouldn't go that far.

Nah, it's okay. I think he's afraid he dies the day he agrees with me on something.

I was trashing that scene long before you showed up.

I'm sure we will agree on something someday.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wouldn't go that far.

I happen to have a low opinion of the way that scene was constructed. Not sure if its Meyer or Nimoy and Shatner who are at fault. Shatner does a better job in STIII when the E goes down in flames.

I find Shatner's simple "No..." much more powerful than the whole "My God, Bones, what have I done?" dialogue.

I guess this is not that day.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well, they failed. Because the new versions of these characters aren't as smart as the originals used to be.

Because they would know Nero had a blackhole weapon in a time when those were though to be impossible.

I guess according to you they would be dumber in TOS because in Balance of Terror they were suprised that the Romulans had the ability to make their ships invisible as well as a very powerful plasma weapon that could blow through a good chunk of an asteroid and the Federation's hardest metals.