• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

NERO was the most successful villian of all of the films

Mad is another way of saying he's crazy, nuts, psycho, off his rocker. "He went mad with grief." "They sent her to the Mad House." "Are you mad? Thats a crazy idea." It goes far beyond being upset.

Yeah, I should have been more specific.

Mad as in totally bonkers.

Seriously though, Khan is kinda crazy in TWOK, isn't he? At least, not totally rational. And the only thing that happened to him was his wife died and some of his band of followers were killed off.

Nero experienced about one billion times that.
 
Khan had a personal vendetta against Kirk. Kirk stranded his crew on a planet that became a desert after the one next to it exploded. Kirk was then indirectly responsible for killing Khan's wife. Had Kirk not marooned them there (or sent anybody to check on things in the time afterward) she wouldn't have died.

Nero's beef with Spock wasn't that Spock caused anything but that he failed to prevent a Supernova. The two things aren't really comparable.

Khan came across as brilliant but obsessed. Here was a guy who had been wandering the cosmos with his crew since... what, the late 1990's? There was good reason his people followed him- he was intelligent and that kept them in line even when it was clear some of them disagreed.

Nero came across as poorly written. His... Of Mice and Men manner of speaking and inexplicable irrationality just didn't play the same way Khan's did (if that is in fact what they were going for.)


-Withers-​
 
Khan had a personal vendetta against Kirk. Kirk stranded his crew on a planet that became a desert after the one next to it exploded. Kirk was then indirectly responsible for killing Khan's wife. Had Kirk not marooned them there (or sent anybody to check on things in the time afterward) she wouldn't have died.

Nero's beef with Spock wasn't that Spock caused anything but that he failed to prevent a Supernova. The two things aren't really comparable.

Khan came across as brilliant but obsessed. Here was a guy who had been wandering the cosmos with his crew since... what, the late 1990's? There was good reason his people followed him- he was intelligent and that kept them in line even when it was clear some of them disagreed.

Nero came across as poorly written. His... Of Mice and Men manner of speaking and inexplicable irrationality just didn't play the same way Khan's did (if that is in fact what they were going for.)


-Withers-​
In the end the result is the same. Dead wife and destroyed world. And someone to blame.
 
Only...

in one scenario the blame seems reasonably placed whereas in the other it doesn't.



-Withers-​
 
Looking for reason in the actions of the insane seems a bit mad.

If these were historical figures we were talking about I'd agree to some degree (even though everyone always wants to know why despots, tyrants and terrorists do what they do- from Hitler to the 9/11 bombers, people always want to know why and are seldom satisfied with the rationale 'they were crazy!')-

But we aren't. We're talking about fictional characters that could have been written any number of different ways. The search isn't for 'reason in the actions of the insane' so much as it is for a reasonable motive to do what was done that simply does not exist in light of lackluster writing.




-Withers-​
 
Only...

in one scenario the blame seems reasonably placed whereas in the other it doesn't.

Well, that all comes down to opinion, doesn't it? I'm not saying it's the greatest character motivation for a villain. I'm just saying it's not totally unrealistic, and it's just not a deal breaker for me.
 
Looking for reason in the actions of the insane seems a bit mad.

If these were historical figures we were talking about I'd agree to some degree (even though everyone always wants to know why despots, tyrants and terrorists do what they do- from Hitler to the 9/11 bombers, people always want to know why and are seldom satisfied with the rationale 'they were crazy!')-

But we aren't. We're talking about fictional characters that could have been written any number of different ways. The search isn't for 'reason in the actions of the insane' so much as it is for a reasonable motive to do what was done that simply does not exist in light of lackluster writing.




-Withers-​
I'm a bit torn on Nero. I liked that he wasn't chewing through scenery like a termite on speed. On the other hand he was a bit lowkey. There needed a little more oomph.

Again losing your wife, your planet and your universe is more than enough motivation to go mad and seek revenge against those you feel are responsible. (That they have limited responsiblilty isnt a factor)
 
I'm a bit torn on Nero. I liked that he wasn't chewing through scenery like a termite on speed. On the other hand he was a bit lowkey. There needed a little more oomph.

I think they'll get it right on the next go-round. This movie had to focus on so many characters (and it couldn't be like the TNG films where large swaths of the movie don't include 90% of the cast) that I think they choose to focus the least on the one main character of this film they knew wouldn't be returning. The team that created XI knows, very well, how to pull of a good, subtle villain and if they can produce a Benjamin Linus for XII I'll be over the moon. A really solid Trek villain, one you don't have to make excuses for, that can be a modern day icon for future generations (like Darth Vader) is what I think Trek really needs.




-Withers-​
 
Only...

in one scenario the blame seems reasonably placed whereas in the other it doesn't.

Well, that all comes down to opinion, doesn't it?

Well, tell me what your opinion is of these two scenarios:

Scenario A
You are a peaceful, hard-working, soon-to-be family man. While on a business trip, a wildfire starts in a forest near your house. A lone firefighter goes to stop the fire, but he is unable to do so. For some reason your wife is unable to escape, even though the fire doesn't really travel that fast, and she dies. You decide to find the firefighter, capture him, and make him watch as you burn his entire city, killing many innocent people just like your wife. He gets away and you find him 25 years later. Having had all that time to think about it, you're still bent on revenge and you carry out your plan. But there's a catch: You get offered a deal by a friendly angel to go back and save your city from burning and wife from dying. It won't fix the pain you had to feel, but it will seriously right a wrong. You refuse the angel's offer in favor of revenge over saving your loved one, and while your vengeance is carried out, you are killed in the process.

Scenario B
You are a cruel and power hungry dictator. Your country faces imminent defeat, so you set out to hide in a far away land with several companions in order to rebuild and one day return to your perceived rightful place as ruler. In your travels across the sea, a more powerful ship and its captain offers to bring your crew aboard when things don't fare well for your ship. In return for their generosity, you commandeer their ship and catch them off guard. After an ensuing struggle involving an attempt to kill the ship's captain, they manage to overthrow you, and they decide graciously not to kill you, but to strand you on a desert island with your companions. This island isn't so bad either. A few months later a tsunami hits the island killing your wife and several of your companions. Living conditions become really dire, but you manage to survive there for almost 20 years. Then one day a ship stops by the island, and you capture and torture a couple members of the crew to find out about the original captain who stranded you and a devastating new nuclear weapon they've found. You in turn strand all of their innocent crew and head off to find this weapon. You find the people making the weapon, who are mysteriously unguarded, and proceed to torture and kill them until they hand it over. They phone the military, and a ship arrives that is the very same one that stranded you many years ago. With your newly commandeered ship, you cripple the captain's ship with a surprise attack, but you aren't completely in the clear either. The captain outmaneuvers you and you are enraged by this. You could just let him go, but you don't want him to get the best of you and you pursue him. This arrogance allows you to be destroyed.


...


Those are the two options, and honestly B sounds a lot more reasonable to me, even if still unreasonable. Khan started as a madman, probably having to do with the genetic engineering. Someone sentences him to an unknowingly unsafe planet and as a result, his wife dies. Whereas Nero started off good, and never had someone put him in the line of danger. On top of that, Nero was given a chance to right the wrong... to revert to being the man he once was. Khan had no chance, and he was never really all that good to begin with.
 
AND Nero killed Jim Kirk's daddy (indirectly)
AND Nero killed Captain Robau (blasphemy!)
AND Nero permanently altered the timeline.
And Nero paralyzed Captain Pike via torture.
AND Nero reduced 47 klingon ships and a squadron of Starfleet ships to ashes.
Was it ever stated that Pike was paralyzed? I mean he picked up the disruptor and shot two Romulans.

Off-topic here, I know, but this is my theory.

Nero did do some sort of spinal cord injury to Pike in the process of torturing him, possibly snapping his back so as to affect everything from the waist down. The spinal cord was probably not truly severed or so damaged that it couldn't send signals, when Kirk and Spock showed up to rescue him. Laying still like that, it probably wouldn't have gotten any worse.

But here's the thing. When Kirk and Spock arrived, I believe Pike deliberately omitted any explanation of his injuries, knowing that standard first-aid procedure is not to move someone with a back injury if you don't have medical equipment (or if you MUST, to be extremely delicate about it). I think that Pike didn't want Kirk or Spock's lives to be further endangered by their trying to carry him out of there slowly, so he chose not to say anything knowing full well that they wouldn't exactly be careful with him...and knowing that his decision to be quiet meant he would very likely end up as a paraplegic.

I think this is in character for Pike, and for the selfless nature of the character that we heard about in "The Menagerie"--the same man that gave so much of himself to save all those cadets' lives in the radiation accident gave up his mobility in THIS timeline to avoid endangering Kirk and Spock's lives.

So yes, I do think Pike is paralyzed from the waist down (not his entire body). Whether treatment will be available in the 23rd century, I'm not sure, though we can't rule it out.
 
Think about it,V'Ger took out some Klingons and the Epsilon Station

Khan killed the crew of Regula One

Kruge Killed a few dozen

The probe made it rain.

Sybok got Uhura hot for Scotty

Chang killed a couple of red shirts

Soran, indirectly got the crew of Armagosa Station killed.

The Borg Queen, she killed a bunch of people in Bozeman and a hundred or so Enterprise crewmen.

Ru'afo, i don't think anyone died on his watch

Shinzon, a few non coms and Data.

Nero. VULACN, 6 billion people, he had his revenge and died after avenging the death of his wife.


I don't think much of Nero as a villian, or a character, or the way he was written...

... but even I can't deny what he managed to accomplish. Nero is indeed the most successful of the movie villains.

The Borg Queen and V'Ger probably/potentially "accomplished" a lot more but none of it's shown on screen.
 
Then Nero is the most successful of the (fully) organic villains.
 
Think about it,V'Ger took out some Klingons and the Epsilon Station

Khan killed the crew of Regula One

Kruge Killed a few dozen

The probe made it rain.

Sybok got Uhura hot for Scotty

Chang killed a couple of red shirts

Soran, indirectly got the crew of Armagosa Station killed.

The Borg Queen, she killed a bunch of people in Bozeman and a hundred or so Enterprise crewmen.

Ru'afo, i don't think anyone died on his watch

Shinzon, a few non coms and Data.

Nero. VULACN, 6 billion people, he had his revenge and died after avenging the death of his wife.

Behold the power of maths. It does not lie. Not ever.

Take that, haters! :guffaw:
 
Yah, as far as the movie villains are concerned, Nero wins the villainy award (well, maybe V'ger wins in the "accomplishing goals" department). He accomplishes his personal vendetta against Spock (actually gets double credit for that one), and severely hurts the Federation at the same time. He may not have destroyed the Federation entirely, but he did take out one of the most important members (second only to Earth, it seems), and a strategic planet as well. I'm not going to argue that he's a good villain, thematically, or believable, or whatever, but at least he got the greatest negative effect out of all of them - he's probably the only Trek villain that left his victims worse off in the long run (except for Kirk and Spock-2).
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top