Norrin Radd
Vice Admiral
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
He was half-mad.
He was half-mad.
Nero is dumb/How does "revenge" save Romulus? [Spoilers]
- Thread starter satchelmouth
- Start date
Re: Is Nero The Stupidest Romulan Ever?
Deleted scenes supposedly show that he was busy in Klingon prison.
Deleted scenes supposedly show that he was busy in Klingon prison.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
Come to think of it, he did have a long time before it would go nova, plus he did have the way to stop it and could have lived to stop it.
Come to think of it, he did have a long time before it would go nova, plus he did have the way to stop it and could have lived to stop it.
Re: Is Nero The Stupidest Romulan Ever?
Exactly. All these various threads demanding explanation of this or that, a line here, a line there, just add a line, and pretty soon you've got an extra 30 minutes of expository and technobabbly bullshit, exactly what turned off most people from Trek in the past. Not everything has to be explained on screen to "prove" it happened. Fill in the blanks.
Exactly. All these various threads demanding explanation of this or that, a line here, a line there, just add a line, and pretty soon you've got an extra 30 minutes of expository and technobabbly bullshit, exactly what turned off most people from Trek in the past. Not everything has to be explained on screen to "prove" it happened. Fill in the blanks.
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All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: Is Nero The Stupidest Romulan Ever?
No, i'm pointing out it's a plothole. He had the capability to destroy the star, save Romulus and therefore save his wife and children so his anger at Spock and his wish to destroy Vulcan and Earth in revenge for the destruction of Romulus would be now (how can I put it) "Illogical". Just because he's Romulan doesn't excuse the change from simple miner to cold blooded genocidal killer. Commander Donatre in Nemesis wasn't too keen on destroying Earth and she was Romulan too.
Add to this fact that he had as long as 25 years (or however long it was) to dwell on it all and should (with even the slightest of intelligence) have come to the same conclusion I have in this thread.
If anything he should be elated at the fact he's been able to go back in time to before the star explodes and can stop it exploding.
Yes it's a film, it was epic having Vulcan sucked into a blackhole and the film needed a bad guy. I'm simply pointing out a plothole and that is all.
Which changes nothing I said and since it was deleted it's not canon and there's no reason to believe it happened.
No, i'm pointing out it's a plothole. He had the capability to destroy the star, save Romulus and therefore save his wife and children so his anger at Spock and his wish to destroy Vulcan and Earth in revenge for the destruction of Romulus would be now (how can I put it) "Illogical". Just because he's Romulan doesn't excuse the change from simple miner to cold blooded genocidal killer. Commander Donatre in Nemesis wasn't too keen on destroying Earth and she was Romulan too.
Add to this fact that he had as long as 25 years (or however long it was) to dwell on it all and should (with even the slightest of intelligence) have come to the same conclusion I have in this thread.
If anything he should be elated at the fact he's been able to go back in time to before the star explodes and can stop it exploding.
Yes it's a film, it was epic having Vulcan sucked into a blackhole and the film needed a bad guy. I'm simply pointing out a plothole and that is all.
Which changes nothing I said and since it was deleted it's not canon and there's no reason to believe it happened.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
Come on... Khan and Picard 2.0 were fucked up as well, but at least their motivations at made *some* sense.
Let's say he does save Romulus during his 25 years living with a bunch of smelly men in an enclosed space, why would he need to take revenge and have Spock watch Vulcan explode?
Yeah, I know it's just a stupid popcorn film and people shouldn't think about this stuff... which is why I don't care about the thousands of plot holes in Wolverine origins. But I'm too much of a Star Trek nerd to let it go.
In fact, if he stopped the sun from going nova, there'd be yet another one of those silly Star Trek time paradoxes where he wouldn't have been thrown back in time in the first place.
Come on... Khan and Picard 2.0 were fucked up as well, but at least their motivations at made *some* sense.
Let's say he does save Romulus during his 25 years living with a bunch of smelly men in an enclosed space, why would he need to take revenge and have Spock watch Vulcan explode?
Yeah, I know it's just a stupid popcorn film and people shouldn't think about this stuff... which is why I don't care about the thousands of plot holes in Wolverine origins. But I'm too much of a Star Trek nerd to let it go.
In fact, if he stopped the sun from going nova, there'd be yet another one of those silly Star Trek time paradoxes where he wouldn't have been thrown back in time in the first place.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
He was in Klingon jail for 25 years, which based on Star Trek VI isn't the best place to be. Plus even if he did destroy that star, his wife and child aren't going to come back.Come on... Khan and Picard 2.0 were fucked up as well, but at least their motivations at made *some* sense.
Let's say he does save Romulus during his 25 years living with a bunch of smelly men in an enclosed space, why would he need to take revenge and have Spock watch Vulcan explode?
Yeah, I know it's just a stupid popcorn film and people shouldn't think about this stuff... which is why I don't care about the thousands of plot holes in Wolverine origins. But I'm too much of a Star Trek nerd to let it go.
In fact, if he stopped the sun from going nova, there'd be yet another one of those silly Star Trek time paradoxes where he wouldn't have been thrown back in time in the first place.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
Umm, I missed something. He was in the jail? I just thought he blew up the prison planet because there were a lot of Klingons around (47 ships or whatever).
And, if he stops the sun from going nova, why wouldn't his wife/unborn child be alive?
I guess this is another Star Trek time travel is stupid thing, where minor changes both have no affect and huge affect on the timeline, but unless somehow changing the past prevents Nero from meeting his wife in the future, there's no reason why his wife couldn't exist and 24th century Nero wouldn't be a happy miner somewhere, drilling for space oiil.
Umm, I missed something. He was in the jail? I just thought he blew up the prison planet because there were a lot of Klingons around (47 ships or whatever).
And, if he stops the sun from going nova, why wouldn't his wife/unborn child be alive?
I guess this is another Star Trek time travel is stupid thing, where minor changes both have no affect and huge affect on the timeline, but unless somehow changing the past prevents Nero from meeting his wife in the future, there's no reason why his wife couldn't exist and 24th century Nero wouldn't be a happy miner somewhere, drilling for space oiil.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
With regards to Nero, I think some people are forgetting that he never had any of the red matter at the beginning of the movie -- it was all in the Jellyfish, and that was probably a significant part of the reason he and his crew were apparently just waiting around for Spock to show up during those 25 years (and yes, there's the Klingon prison thing as well, although with that scene cut, you can pretty much take it or leave it). No Spock + Jellyfish = no way to completely destroy planets like Vulcan and Earth (I mean, sure, he might have been able to do it with the advanced, futuristic technology on the Narada, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as efficient).
He probably was planning to use the red matter on the Hobus Star eventually, if he didn't already do so off-screen at some point in the film. And yes, he wanted revenge, since he blamed Spock and the Federation for not saving Romulus (and his wife and unborn child) in time. Having Spock there to witness his revenge may have just been icing on the cake.
With regards to Nero, I think some people are forgetting that he never had any of the red matter at the beginning of the movie -- it was all in the Jellyfish, and that was probably a significant part of the reason he and his crew were apparently just waiting around for Spock to show up during those 25 years (and yes, there's the Klingon prison thing as well, although with that scene cut, you can pretty much take it or leave it). No Spock + Jellyfish = no way to completely destroy planets like Vulcan and Earth (I mean, sure, he might have been able to do it with the advanced, futuristic technology on the Narada, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as efficient).
He probably was planning to use the red matter on the Hobus Star eventually, if he didn't already do so off-screen at some point in the film. And yes, he wanted revenge, since he blamed Spock and the Federation for not saving Romulus (and his wife and unborn child) in time. Having Spock there to witness his revenge may have just been icing on the cake.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
DOH! You're right!
Pretty much how I see it, once he had the Red Matter in his possession. He prolly figured, I'll blow up a couple of planets, then prevent the star from going nova, or something like that. His ship was crazy powerful, so he was just cocky and over confident.
However, I think he also understood that he would not get back to a future he recognized. *A* Nero might live in a future where his wife and child lived.....it just wouldn't be him.
DOH! You're right!
Pretty much how I see it, once he had the Red Matter in his possession. He prolly figured, I'll blow up a couple of planets, then prevent the star from going nova, or something like that. His ship was crazy powerful, so he was just cocky and over confident.
However, I think he also understood that he would not get back to a future he recognized. *A* Nero might live in a future where his wife and child lived.....it just wouldn't be him.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
His plan is to save Romulus, which could then fully dominate a galaxy since he will have already eliminated their Federation competition.
And why would he be in a hurry to stop an event that's still the better part of a century in the future?
There is nothing in the story that indicates that the star in this new timeline could conceivably go nova sooner than did its prime-timeline counterpart, so Nero is confident that he has a great many years to save his world. However before he can save his world, he must not only get his hands on the red matter, but must also make sure that he remains in control of it long enough to accomplish his goals. Which means he must eliminate/cripple those most likely to try to wrest the red matter away from him, as soon as it is possible for him to do so.
So in this particular situation, Nero striking out at his enemies first isn't at all stupid, but is probably one of the most sane, sound and logical strategies for him to adopt.
Whoops, my bad. I guess I misremembered that part.
Darn, now I have to go see the movie again.
His plan is to save Romulus, which could then fully dominate a galaxy since he will have already eliminated their Federation competition.
And why would he be in a hurry to stop an event that's still the better part of a century in the future?
There is nothing in the story that indicates that the star in this new timeline could conceivably go nova sooner than did its prime-timeline counterpart, so Nero is confident that he has a great many years to save his world. However before he can save his world, he must not only get his hands on the red matter, but must also make sure that he remains in control of it long enough to accomplish his goals. Which means he must eliminate/cripple those most likely to try to wrest the red matter away from him, as soon as it is possible for him to do so.
So in this particular situation, Nero striking out at his enemies first isn't at all stupid, but is probably one of the most sane, sound and logical strategies for him to adopt.
Revenge is stupid. It didn't really make sense with Kahn because he could have just used having his Genesis devise to go back to Earth and take it over or whatever he planned to do. And then forced a future confrontation with Kirk with his own fleet. But no he was stupid and went after Kirk with his one weakened ship. Revenge always makes enemies stupid.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
I'd like to know why my thread was merged with this one and not the other way around when I started mine first. My thread was more sophisticated.
Re: Nero is dumb (spoilerific)
How do you know he didn't? I mean, he had twenty five years to spend kicking around the galaxy, I can't imagine he would have steered clear of Romulus all that time. In fact, it's quite possible he went to his old home world and shared some of his 24th century technology with them, considering bolstering the Empire against its enemies was one of his goals (of course, since Nero's weapons appear to be improvised and are basically obsolete by 2387 standards, he's probably just giving them tremendously more advanced versions of weapons they already have on the drawing board in the 2230s). There is, however, no reason why the Romulan Empire would have agreed to Nero's asinine scheme, recognizing him to be 1) completely out of his mind and 2) hell bent on destroying Vulcan for some reason, which the Empire has designs on OTHER than annihilation. So there may be something to it when he tells Captain Pike "I do not speak for the Empire." Chances are he actually WENT to the Empire and they told him to take a hike.
The other thing to be considered is, we don't really know or understand how Romulus was destroyed (I know, the comic is supposed to shed light on this, but it's not necessarily canon in this sense). There's certainly a contradiction here between Nero's seeing his home planet destroyed and then being pissed enough to try and stop Spock from intervening, so I rather think it wasn't one but a SERIES of supernovas detonating, maybe some kind of chain reaction that could only be interrupted by knocking out the next star in the chain, and Spock failed to head it off before it got to the Romulus star. If Nero had a few months or even years after the destruction of Romulus, he might have convinced himself that Spock was actually causing the explosions somehow instead of trying to prevent them, that his "I'll save Romulus!" spiel was just the cover story of a massive genocidal con job. His destroying Vulcan is probably an enormous "I'll get you before you get me" scenario from what Spock rightly describes as "One severely disturbed Romulan."
How do you know he didn't? I mean, he had twenty five years to spend kicking around the galaxy, I can't imagine he would have steered clear of Romulus all that time. In fact, it's quite possible he went to his old home world and shared some of his 24th century technology with them, considering bolstering the Empire against its enemies was one of his goals (of course, since Nero's weapons appear to be improvised and are basically obsolete by 2387 standards, he's probably just giving them tremendously more advanced versions of weapons they already have on the drawing board in the 2230s). There is, however, no reason why the Romulan Empire would have agreed to Nero's asinine scheme, recognizing him to be 1) completely out of his mind and 2) hell bent on destroying Vulcan for some reason, which the Empire has designs on OTHER than annihilation. So there may be something to it when he tells Captain Pike "I do not speak for the Empire." Chances are he actually WENT to the Empire and they told him to take a hike.
The other thing to be considered is, we don't really know or understand how Romulus was destroyed (I know, the comic is supposed to shed light on this, but it's not necessarily canon in this sense). There's certainly a contradiction here between Nero's seeing his home planet destroyed and then being pissed enough to try and stop Spock from intervening, so I rather think it wasn't one but a SERIES of supernovas detonating, maybe some kind of chain reaction that could only be interrupted by knocking out the next star in the chain, and Spock failed to head it off before it got to the Romulus star. If Nero had a few months or even years after the destruction of Romulus, he might have convinced himself that Spock was actually causing the explosions somehow instead of trying to prevent them, that his "I'll save Romulus!" spiel was just the cover story of a massive genocidal con job. His destroying Vulcan is probably an enormous "I'll get you before you get me" scenario from what Spock rightly describes as "One severely disturbed Romulan."
Re: Nero is dumb (spoilerific)
He was on Rura Penthe with the rest of his crew as the Klingons messed with his ship for 25 years (according to deleted scenes from the movie). In the theatrical cut, this could be explained by the fact that the Narada's crew had to spend a whole lot of time repairing the damage caused by the Kelvin ramming it and replensing their missile supplies.
Re: How does "revenge" save Romulus?
I think this was the direction in which he was probably heading. It's dillusional that he could pull it off, but that fits his state of mind.
As I interpretted what he said to Pike, I think he was intending to cripple the Federation so the Romulan Empire would be the major player in this timeline.
There's plenty of time (and red matter) to deal with the Hobus star.
Further, HIS Romulus and HIS family are gone forever. Once this new timeline started, whatever he does in it does not affect the old one. So, even saving Romulus in this timeline does not bring it back in the other. Just as destroying Vulcan in this timeline doesn't mean it's destroyed in the other.
I think this was the direction in which he was probably heading. It's dillusional that he could pull it off, but that fits his state of mind.
As I interpretted what he said to Pike, I think he was intending to cripple the Federation so the Romulan Empire would be the major player in this timeline.
There's plenty of time (and red matter) to deal with the Hobus star.
Further, HIS Romulus and HIS family are gone forever. Once this new timeline started, whatever he does in it does not affect the old one. So, even saving Romulus in this timeline does not bring it back in the other. Just as destroying Vulcan in this timeline doesn't mean it's destroyed in the other.
