Also, the writers would've had to have actual knowledge of TNG history to put such a great twist on the story like that. Hell, they could've had Ro Laren come back for a cameo instead of Janeway, warning Picard of Sela's return from a Maquis facility.
Nemesis
- Thread starter heavylids
- Start date
In order for it to be a good film they'd need to scrap 3/4 of the script and find a new director.
As to 'narrow-minded' you can clearly see the vast majority of Trekkers loathe it. So I'd say my position merely shows the common belief.
TWOK is an obvious, clumsy movie and I think it's frankly insulting to Nemesis to compare it to it; more insulting than NEM deserves, anyway.
But I agree that Sela would've been far better. What KILLS me is that Denise Crosby wanted in on Nemesis, but Berman turned her down (at least that's what Memory Alpha said, IIRC).
And Tomalak! We're going to Romulus and need some antagonist figures...HELLO?! That was a huge problem with the movie. It was very clear that nobody knew much about TNG nor did they especially care; Lore, Tomalak, Sela, the events of Unification, the fact that Picard had hair when he was young as shown in Tapestry and Rascals, and many many others that would be applicable are completely ignored.
Perhaps, but I wasn't arguing whether people enjoy the film or not. I was pointing out that it's not really fair to say that anyone who likes the film likes it because it's an explosion fest.
All these Sela suggestions disturb me. I agree that it makes sense logically. And yes, it would help the title "Nemesis" seem more appropriate and tie into the continuity and back story of the series like "Star Trek: First Contact" did. There's just one problem you're all forgetting...Sela was a horrible character.
The way Tasha originally died was lame. Then "Yesterday's Enterprise" redeemed the character and gave her a proper send-off. Then the Sela episodes tainted the character again by giving her yet another canon death that was stupid just like the first one, and didn't even happen on screen. Other than the novelty of seeing Denise Crosby again and a few cute lines of dialogue (mainly her irritation with Spock), I didn't see any appeal in Sela at all.
And how the hell could the screenwriters explain her convoluted back story to the uninitiated audiences of a Star Trek movie? This must always be taken into consideration when making a Star Trek movie, because unlike TV episodes, you can't just make it for the fans...you have to consider the general "non-Trekkie" audience. This ridiculous back story would just completely bewilder them. As a fan of the series, even I find it hard to explain...
1) A crew member gets killed.
2) She comes back to life through an alternate timeline when two timelines/dimensions collide.
3) The crew of the alternate timeline sends her back into the original timeline in the past.
4) She survives in the original timeline, changing the past in which she'd died, yet the crew of the original timeline still knows she's dead in the present and only one character (Guinan) is *vaguely* aware that they'd sent her back in time.
5) After surviving a battle with Romulans, she is taken as a prisoner of war and a Romulan rapes her until she has a child.
6) She tries to run away with the child and is killed when the child squeals on her.
7) The child grows up to look EXACTLY like her, despite being half human/half Romulan and hates the Federation, yet has no reason to hold a personal grudge against Picard.
How the hell could a screenwriter cram all that absurd back story/exposition into one movie, and why would we want them to? "Star Trek: Nemesis" definitely could have used a better villain, but I don't think Sela was the right choice.
Tomalak and Lore are better ideas, but as infinitely more interesting as they were, they still didn't really carry the emotional weight that an adversary like Khan did with Kirk. Like Sela, Tomalak mostly hates Picard just because he's a Romulan and all Romulans hate Starfleet. At least he's been insulted by Picard enough times to be justifiably better, but he wasn't in the series enough times to be considered his bonifide arch enemy.
What makes Lore a "nemesis"? His beef was more with Data and with what a one-note asshole he was, I can't imagine him being tolerable for the entire duration of a movie. Also, given how lame his last scheme with the Borg was, I wouldn't be optimistic about the writers being able to come up with a creative idea to bring him back.
The only people I think could have been strong antagonists if brought from the series to the big screen would be Q or the Gul played by David Warner who tortured Picard in "Chain of Command". Even Q is someone I'm not sure about because while he was legitimately threatening and cruel in "Q Who", by the end of the series he clearly has enough affection for Picard and crew that it wouldn't be believable for him to threaten their lives again. It wouldn't be impossible, but would take a hell of a script.
The way Tasha originally died was lame. Then "Yesterday's Enterprise" redeemed the character and gave her a proper send-off. Then the Sela episodes tainted the character again by giving her yet another canon death that was stupid just like the first one, and didn't even happen on screen. Other than the novelty of seeing Denise Crosby again and a few cute lines of dialogue (mainly her irritation with Spock), I didn't see any appeal in Sela at all.
And how the hell could the screenwriters explain her convoluted back story to the uninitiated audiences of a Star Trek movie? This must always be taken into consideration when making a Star Trek movie, because unlike TV episodes, you can't just make it for the fans...you have to consider the general "non-Trekkie" audience. This ridiculous back story would just completely bewilder them. As a fan of the series, even I find it hard to explain...
1) A crew member gets killed.
2) She comes back to life through an alternate timeline when two timelines/dimensions collide.
3) The crew of the alternate timeline sends her back into the original timeline in the past.
4) She survives in the original timeline, changing the past in which she'd died, yet the crew of the original timeline still knows she's dead in the present and only one character (Guinan) is *vaguely* aware that they'd sent her back in time.
5) After surviving a battle with Romulans, she is taken as a prisoner of war and a Romulan rapes her until she has a child.
6) She tries to run away with the child and is killed when the child squeals on her.
7) The child grows up to look EXACTLY like her, despite being half human/half Romulan and hates the Federation, yet has no reason to hold a personal grudge against Picard.
How the hell could a screenwriter cram all that absurd back story/exposition into one movie, and why would we want them to? "Star Trek: Nemesis" definitely could have used a better villain, but I don't think Sela was the right choice.
Tomalak and Lore are better ideas, but as infinitely more interesting as they were, they still didn't really carry the emotional weight that an adversary like Khan did with Kirk. Like Sela, Tomalak mostly hates Picard just because he's a Romulan and all Romulans hate Starfleet. At least he's been insulted by Picard enough times to be justifiably better, but he wasn't in the series enough times to be considered his bonifide arch enemy.
What makes Lore a "nemesis"? His beef was more with Data and with what a one-note asshole he was, I can't imagine him being tolerable for the entire duration of a movie. Also, given how lame his last scheme with the Borg was, I wouldn't be optimistic about the writers being able to come up with a creative idea to bring him back.
The only people I think could have been strong antagonists if brought from the series to the big screen would be Q or the Gul played by David Warner who tortured Picard in "Chain of Command". Even Q is someone I'm not sure about because while he was legitimately threatening and cruel in "Q Who", by the end of the series he clearly has enough affection for Picard and crew that it wouldn't be believable for him to threaten their lives again. It wouldn't be impossible, but would take a hell of a script.
I totally agree. At a minimum. Sela should have been in the role of Donatra. Berman saying there was no room for her was bunk.
Tomalok would also have been a nice addition, if not the main villain, himself.
Oh, I'm forgetting no such thing. I just think you're wrong. And I don't think you need to explain Sela's history any more thoroughly than you needed to explain the Defiant. Just show that she has history with Picard, and leave at that. As far as the Lore point, I wasn't trying to say he should be the main villain; just that not even a MENTION of his existence when they find an identical twin to Data is a bit telling.
How is it insulting to Nemesis to compare it with TWOK when clearly it has many parables to the film? Right down to Data sacrificing himself similar to Spock. I understand you have a problem with TWOK from our previous conversation but really to dismiss comparing the two films as being insulting to Nemesis is insulting my own opinion.
Too Much Fun is completely right - Sela was a terrible character and Crosby is a mediocre actress who couldn't carry the role of main antagonist. Also, the Defiant didn't need to be explained because it wasn't in any way important to the story. Sela, as main antagonist, would have been just a bit more important than that. The fact that you can't even recognize the difference between the story needed for a prop piece that just got someone to a battle and a character who would act as a main antagonist is embarrassing. Though, I guess Denise Crosby has probably been mistaken for a prop piece in the past...
As for Q, I don't think he was really a villain/antagonist by the end of the show, but I do think something more with the torturing Gul would have been cool. Not movie cool, but cool.
As for Q, I don't think he was really a villain/antagonist by the end of the show, but I do think something more with the torturing Gul would have been cool. Not movie cool, but cool.
I was thinking the same thing - but at the very least, we all know we can quite easily dismiss his opinions as lunacy in the future.
You misunderstand; I'm not saying they have no similarity, but the idea that it's ripping off some great film just gets under my skin, so I snark about it. That's all. And thank you for your kind words, Bishop.
Okay fair enough but I didn't say that Nemesis was a rip off of TWOK, I said that it had that same mentality which is two different things entirely. My point was that I thought Nemesis should have had it's own structure. I think there is a quote from someone in one of the documentary behind the scenes is that is what they were going for which is why we saw so many similarities to it in Nemesis.
Any time!
I wasn't replying to you; I just meant the "obvious, clumsy" comment by another poster. I'm sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention.
But I do agree that Nemesis should've been more unique and should've had more to do with TNG than it actually did.
.
Last edited:
Not 'anyone.' Many. There's a difference.
And as has been said, Sela would have been a better option. So would starting from scratch and creating an entirely new plot. We don't even need to have it centered on Romulans. Thats cool of course, but there are other hostile species out there.
It just goes to show that you can never fully trust Hollywood with anything.
I wasn't offended RyuRoots. Just was attempting to make my point clear as possible despite any disagreements. 
I too am a fan of the involvement of Sela as a villain, not necessarily the main villain but part of the scheme. I think they dropped the ball by not using her.
I too am a fan of the involvement of Sela as a villain, not necessarily the main villain but part of the scheme. I think they dropped the ball by not using her.
The good thing is, all Maquis were dead at that point. Hurray!
Why do fans insist on calling the original continuity the "old" continuity. The purpose of the split was so that they could both run along each other parallel, not so one could replace the other. While I agree anything we see will probably take place in the JJ continuity, the books are still happening in the original continuity.
Similar threads
