NEMESIS vs TREK V

[RobertScorpio]

Decent TNG episode?

Utter drek, more like.

Watch Tapestry sometime and you'll get a better idea of the quality of TNG.

Oh I agree..TAPESTY happens to be my third favorite TNG episode (after THE OFFSPRING and YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE).

Nemesis is down there with SHADES OF GRAY or, yikes, THE NAKED NOW. (and TREK V is better than all three of them)

Rob

 

[AN_D_K]

I prefer TFF. It's an awful film, no doubt about that, but it had the heart and relationships of the crew as it's core (even if it's badly done...row, row, row your boat).

Nemesis just seems like lame out of place set piece after set piece with some slow bits to explain the poor plot. I don't feel the same about the characters as I did in the TV series. It's just 'meh' all the way.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I prefer TFF. It's an awful film, no doubt about that, but it had the heart and relationships of the crew as it's core (even if it's badly done...row, row, row your boat).

Nemesis just seems like lame out of place set piece after set piece with some slow bits to explain the poor plot. I don't feel the same about the characters as I did in the TV series. It's just 'meh' all the way.

I couldnt put my finger on it..and you just did. The characters in NEMESIS, the ones we watched on TNG, were just hollow to me, in Nemesis. I actually thought Insurrection, as bad as it is, and it is bad, at least had some of the TNG characteristics...not Nemesis. It felt like I was watching strangers..

Where as TFF, far from a great film, still felt as if it was centering around characters I had known since the 1960s...

Good post D K...

Rob

 

[plynch]

Which is worse, a train wreck or a boring train ride you've been on before, but this time it's gray and rainy and the food is bland?

 

[JohanKoch]

If I had to say something good about TFF, I would point out that they were at least trying to do a more "Trek-like" adventure. God-like beings, travel to the end of the universe, a more lighthearted tone, etc., seemed like an attempt to capture the tone of the show. It failed miserably, of course, with awful writing and directing, but at least they were trying. Way too many recent Trek films have fallen back on generic brooding villains, big space battles, etc. Makes for nice eye candy, not so good as a Star Trek film.

Which leads me to Nemesis. If I had to say something good about it...I would cut out my tongue, since there is nothing good to say. And this comes from someone who is a big Next Generation fan and can at least find something good to say about the other TNG films.

Both films are abject failures, but TFF at least tried something different, so that film wins.

 

[Ward Fowler]

TFF is the superior movie. It may have been imperfect, but at least it attempted to be about something. Not only that, but TFF had several scenes that expanded upon the the close relationships of the main characters and it also had a performance by Laurence Luckinbill that I would gladly compare against that of Tom Hardy's.

 

[RobertScorpio]

TFF is the superior movie. It may have been imperfect, but at least it attempted to be about something. Not only that, but TFF had several scenes that expanded upon the the close relationships of the main characters and it also had a performance by Laurence Luckinbill that I would gladly compare against that of Tom Hardy's.

Thats his name..Tom Hardy. I couldn't even remember that dude's name until your post. But you nailed one of the main reasons; SYBOK vs SHINZON. I still find Sybok to be a compelling character, even if the writing wasn't the best. You can still 'get' what the character is trying to say and do. And with WACO happening just a couple years later, it at least had some grasp on the idea that those who are weak minded can be led down a path to certain death.

I had the great fortune as reading Shatner's original script. Had they filmed THAT movie, it would have been great. A 'shell' of that script made it on to the screen.

Nemesis? Just two weeks ago I just happened upon it on TV. It was one of those scenes with Shinzon on his dark bridge, or in his dark quarters, or where ever he was. And it just DRONED on and on and on. I had to change the channel before I fell asleep!

Rob

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The one good (meaningful) element to Nemesis is the idea of facing your "shadow" or your darker self. It's what makes the Luke-Vader dynamic so strong. And it was played to great effect of Raiders of the Lost Ark between Indy and Belloq (sp?). It's a very common and compelling archetype.

But the problem with Shinzon is that he isn't a true mirror of Picard, even if the film says it over and over again. You see absolutely nothing about the noble, rational, sincere character of Picard in Shinzon. Shinzon is just too much like a maniacal cookie-cutter villain than a real darker reflection of Picard.

Plus, the whole explanation that Shinzon is evil -- because he had bad things happen to him in his life -- utterly rules out any possibility that there are elements of our personality that we are born with. Those elements can be twisted or cultivated. But nothing about Shinzon suggests a "twisting" of Picard's character traits.

And no, a tea craving isn't enough of a parallel.

Sybok's "faith-healing" might be preposterous, but it isn't as fundamentally flawed as Shinzon.

 

[Kirk1980]

Yeah, I think these posts might be best summed up as...

TFF tried to mean something and ultimately failed in trying.

Nemesis tried nothing and succeeded in being nothing.

 

[MANT!]

TFF..I laughed and winced through the entire movie.."Beam On DOWN!!" and all the jokes ..it was like watching a plane crash at an airshow..I just couldn't tear my eyes away..for the most part, it was total camp..


Nemesis..I fell asleep at my initial viewing at 230PM in the theater....nuff said..
TFF kicks ass over Nemesis

 

[RobertScorpio]

TFF..I laughed and winced through the entire movie.."Beam On DOWN!!" and all the jokes ..it was like watching a plane crash at an airshow..I just couldn't tear my eyes away..for the most part, it was total camp..


Nemesis..I fell asleep at my initial viewing at 230PM in the theater....nuff said..
TFF kicks ass over Nemesis.

Great post..and I agree. I am offically giving you a day off!!!

Look, I'm not saying TFF is a great movie. But some of it, okay very little of it, was actually okay. I liked the scene where SYBOK made them face their pain in the observatino room...

Rob

 

[Chrisisall]

I prefer TFF. I actually thought Insurrection, as bad as it is, and it is bad, at least had some of the TNG characteristics...

Insurrection happens to be my favourite NG movie....

To the topic: I don't see a huge difference between the two, but I can get through both thanks to Jerry Goldsmith.

 

[AN_D_K]

I didn't say that by the way...bad cut and paste up there ^^^

 

[cybersoldier]

I take Nemesis anytime of the day,week,month or year over Trek V

 

[RobertScorpio]

I take Nemesis anytime of the day,week,month or year over Trek V

You can have it any day, week, month or year. Nemesis was the Genesis of Berman's nixxes...

Rob

 

[timelord1010]

My votes for The Final Frontier.
I wish Paramount would come up with a few dollars to do a directors edit of TFF and fix the FX and tighten the story up. That could vastly improve TFF. One of the scenes to cut: The jet boots in the turbo lift shaft that has more levels than the ship has.

As for Nemesis, the story needs a rewrite. Make B4 into Lore and have him work with Sela (Denise Crosby's romulan character) against Picard and deep six the whole "Picard Clone" story line and get someone who knows the characters to write the script and let Johnathan Frakes direct. Also, brighten Nemesis up a bit, nearly every scene was dark.

Just my 2 credits

 

[Shazam!]

I preferred Final Frontier. It's nowhere near as bad as people make out. The character interaction was fun and the plot was kinda cool and intimate (no "ZOMG the Earth is in dangers!!!" going on here). The only that let it down was the specia effects.

 

[Chrisisall]

I wish Paramount would come up with a few dollars to do a directors edit of TFF and fix the FX and tighten the story up.

From your mouth, uhh, keyboard, to Paramount's ears.
I would LOVE to see that!

 

[RobertScorpio]

I wish Paramount would come up with a few dollars to do a directors edit of TFF and fix the FX and tighten the story up.

From your mouth, uhh, keyboard, to Paramount's ears.
I would LOVE to see that!

I wonder if some of our CGI experts could come up with their own edit and then show it to Paramount..

Rob

 

[MarauderMo]

Insurrection happens to be my favourite NG movie....

^^ To this day I don't understand the hatred for Insurrection. I mean it's not Oscar gold or anything, but its better than these two piles.. and IMO better than TMP or GEN.


As far as Nemesis and Final Frontier go... I think Nemesis is the better film and I could probably name 75+ reasons why (one for every deck of the Enterprise). Well I will just name a couple of reasons...

Scotty running into the pipe and knock himself out. I'm surprised that scene didn't have a laugh track. Could you imagine this scene happening in Nemesis to say Geordi or Worf? That scene alone kills the credibility of the whole film for me.

Now I could live with seeing Marina Sirtis in her 50's doing a nude fan dance, but it just doesn't work here for Nichelle Nichols... sorry Nichelle

The effects were ... "not good" and the redressed TNG sets looked awful. When you make a budget movie, you get a budget-ass look. I've seen Halmark Classics that are more cinematic.

I never liked the sub-plot about the Klingon trying to show his overly testosterone oozing girlfriend that he has a bigger pair than she does by defeating Kirk... but i guess that was better than Data meets his evil retarded brother, so I guess that's a point for TFF

Anyway To each their own i guess... I would still take either of these over Motion Picture, that movie makes me sleepy just thinking about it.