NEMESIS vs TREK V

[RobertScorpio]

Yes...another one of these threads. But its been months since the last one so, I thought I would reignite old passions...

I think STAR TREK V THE FINAL FRONTIER is a better movie than Nemesis for several key reasons.

FX; some people like the Nemesis CGI, where as I think they are really cheap and bad looking. TREK V's FX are also cheap and bad looking too. But in the time NEMESIS was made, which was after PHANTOM MENACE, there is no way the FX should have been THAT bad.

Acting; this is where, for me, TREK V wins this. Because, for me, TREK is NEVER about the FX; its about the story and acting. Trek V has some very good scenes involving acting. The campfire scene, the scene in the observation room where SYBOK makes them face their fears, the showdown between Spock and Sybok on the hanger...to name a few. These are all well acted scenes, and Deforrest Kelly really shines in the observation scene when he relives his father's death. I think it was Dee's best acting scene ever...

I have seen NEMESIS four times in my life, and doubt I will ever see it again (Unless someone PAID me). I can't think of any acting scene that really sticks out. All I remember from that movie is Picard's big head, and shinzon, because that movie was void of any cinematography...and just a lot of droaning on and on in dark sets.

SYBOK vs SHINZON; TREK V's Sybok, for me, is a far more compelling and interesting character than Shinzon. Luckinbull, I think, nailed the role. People complain he wasn't Vulcan enough: THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE part. He wasn't a "Surakian" Kind of guy. He represents Vulcans who dont accept logic.

STORY; sure, finding God was not that original (Roddenberry's own attempt got nixxed). But Nemesis, being admittedly molded in Khan's image, is just berift of any wonder to it. Where as Sybok anchoring the story of V comes through with some interesting ideas, Shinzon doesn't. He's just written badly, and hard to accept as a clone of Picard.

In BOX OFFICE terms, TREK V really shows how bad a flop NEMESIS was. I think TREK V, even with 1989 dollars, beats NEMESIS with its 2003 dollars and price of a movie ticket.

NEMESIS, for me, is an example, like TREK V, when the talent (Shatner for V) and (Spiner-Stewart) are given to much power. But Shatner's personality, love it or hate it, pushes V to a better result than the dark and dreary, sleep inducing Nemesis.

Rob

 

[RyuRoots]

ST V is a frigggin' joke. Not that Nemesis is THAT much better overall, but you can at least take it seriously more than you can in ST V, and there are actually scenes I like in Nemesis. Jet Boots really are just about the ONLY good thing about Final Frontier. I know you're a Nemesis-hater Rob, but...yeesh. NONE of the TNG movies are worse than TFF, not even the last two if you ask me.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I think TFF and Nemesis are equally atrocious. But if you put a gun to my head and forced me to watch one of two, I'd pick TFF without hesitation.

Despite the obviously higher production values in Nemesis, and despite the fact that I enjoy TNG far more than TOS, I just can't take Nemesis seriously (due to a whole host of preposterous elements) ... and it's a film that wants to be taken seriously -- unlike TFF which was self-deprecating enough to make it a more entertaining train wreck to watch.

 

[DevilEyes]

Yes...another one of these threads. But its been months since the last one so, I thought I would reignite old passions...

I think STAR TREK V THE FINAL FRONTIER is a better movie than Nemesis for several key reasons.

FX; some people like the Nemesis CGI, where as I think they are really cheap and bad looking. TREK V's FX are also cheap and bad looking too. But in the time NEMESIS was made, which was after PHANTOM MENACE, there is no way the FX should have been THAT bad.

Acting; this is where, for me, TREK V wins this. Because, for me, TREK is NEVER about the FX; its about the story and acting. Trek V has some very good scenes involving acting. The campfire scene, the scene in the observation room where SYBOK makes them face their fears, the showdown between Spock and Sybok on the hanger...to name a few. These are all well acted scenes, and Deforrest Kelly really shines in the observation scene when he relives his father's death. I think it was Dee's best acting scene ever...

I have seen NEMESIS four times in my life, and doubt I will ever see it again (Unless someone PAID me). I can't think of any acting scene that really sticks out. All I remember from that movie is Picard's big head, and shinzon, because that movie was void of any cinematography...and just a lot of droaning on and on in dark sets.

SYBOK vs SHINZON; TREK V's Sybok, for me, is a far more compelling and interesting character than Shinzon. Luckinbull, I think, nailed the role. People complain he wasn't Vulcan enough: THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE part. He wasn't a "Surakian" Kind of guy. He represents Vulcans who dont accept logic.

STORY; sure, finding God was not that original (Roddenberry's own attempt got nixxed). But Nemesis, being admittedly molded in Khan's image, is just berift of any wonder to it. Where as Sybok anchoring the story of V comes through with some interesting ideas, Shinzon doesn't. He's just written badly, and hard to accept as a clone of Picard.

In BOX OFFICE terms, TREK V really shows how bad a flop NEMESIS was. I think TREK V, even with 1989 dollars, beats NEMESIS with its 2003 dollars and price of a movie ticket.

NEMESIS, for me, is an example, like TREK V, when the talent (Shatner for V) and (Spiner-Stewart) are given to much power. But Shatner's personality, love it or hate it, pushes V to a better result than the dark and dreary, sleep inducing Nemesis.

Rob

Well, I disagree.

I think that the box office results in this case don't speak about the quality, but about the circumstances. FF rode on the wave of success of the previous Trek movies, and it ruined the momentum created by the trilogy (The Voyage Home was one of the highest grossing Trek movies, wasn't it?) Besides, it was the pre-Internet time, when it wasn't that easy for Trek fans to come by old episodes and other Trek stuff as it is today, so they had to make do with what was available. Nemesis, on the other hand, came after the failure of Insurrection, and just cemented the crisis of Trek movie franchise. It was also the time when there was a Trek series on TV - which was not doing all that well. It was generally not a great time for Trek, and nd as I said, in 2002 it was much easier for fans to find old episodes, movies and stuff through Internet, DVDs etc.

As bad as Nemesis is, Final Frontier is worse. There's a lot of awful acting in FF, particularly by the actors playing Klingons and other supporting alien characters, the movie has no pacing, the direction seems amateurish... the entire movie looks amateurish. There are way too many ridiculous and embarrassing attempts at comedy, including the campfire scenes, which seem like a bad parody of Kirk/Spock/McCoy TOS dynamic. The comedy scenes are not funny, while the scenes that should be emotional and serious - like Kirk confronting Spock about not killing Sybok - came off as silly; Shatner's acting was laughably awful there.

The main idea of the movie was not so bad - an anti-Surakian Vulcan who uses his mental powers to influence people and turn them to his cause seems like an interesting concept on paper, but the execution was really bad. He comes off as nothing but a God-obsessed version of Dr Phil. Sybok's interractions and influence on people, the way it is presented in the movie, is very unconvincing. He makes people remember their most painful moments, and they are immediately ready to follow him everywhere? Really?

And here we come to the reason FF particularly annoyed and angered me - it made caricatures out of the TOS characters, destroying any dignity and intergrity they had. The supporting cast fared particularly badly - they are all presented as weak-willed, easily manipulated fools who get brainwashed by Sybok and are willing to immediately betray the Starfleet. Sulu tries to dodge duty in order to stay longer on shore leave with Chekov, and later is one of the first people to get brainwashed by Sybok and betray his captain and Starfleet. Uhura's role consists of doing a naked fan-dance to distract a bunch of drooling morons (what was up with that, didn't they have any women in that colony? Haven't they seen a woman before?!), getting brainwashed by Sybok, and subsequently sexually harassing a terrified Scotty, with whom she's hinted to have had some sort of out of thew blue, implausible romantic thing going on that makes them act like two immature teenagers. Scotty is a silly old man who bumps his head at doorways of the ship he claims to know as the back of his hand. But it could have been worse - apparently, Shatner wanted Spock and McCoy to betray Kirk, too, so Kirk would be the lone Hero of the movie, but Nimoy and Kelley protested. Too bad that the supporting cast did not have as much influence and could not stop the character assassinations of their characters. But, the campfire scenes and other scenes of forced buddy-buddy comedy between the Trio still manages to hurt their characters almost as badly. Some people have wondered if Shatner wanted to hurt the characters of the actors he didn't get along with. If that was the case, it is ironic that he ended up making Kirk into as much a caricature with his awful dialogue and acting.

McCoy's flashback is the only scene in the entire movie that is worth seeing; even Spock's flashback makes no sense (unless you intepret it as an expression of Spock's fears, rather than a real memory, but I doubt that this was the intention), and pretty much every other scene in the movie ranges from bad to awful.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

You argue your point well, but none can ever convince me that STV is better than any other Star Trek movie.

 

[Anika Hanson]

Nemesis. Not only is Trek V my least favourite star trek film, I actually really liked Nemesis. It's up there with my favourite Trek movies. Although it didnt always come across in the movies, Nemesis had a really good story line and actually told us some background on the Romulans. I appreciated the film a lot more after reading the novel. And the battle scene at the end was just awsome, the best i've ever seen in Trek. Data's self-sacrifice only adds to the film.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Yes...another one of these threads. But its been months since the last one so, I thought I would reignite old passions...

I think STAR TREK V THE FINAL FRONTIER is a better movie than Nemesis for several key reasons.

FX; some people like the Nemesis CGI, where as I think they are really cheap and bad looking. TREK V's FX are also cheap and bad looking too. But in the time NEMESIS was made, which was after PHANTOM MENACE, there is no way the FX should have been THAT bad.

Acting; this is where, for me, TREK V wins this. Because, for me, TREK is NEVER about the FX; its about the story and acting. Trek V has some very good scenes involving acting. The campfire scene, the scene in the observation room where SYBOK makes them face their fears, the showdown between Spock and Sybok on the hanger...to name a few. These are all well acted scenes, and Deforrest Kelly really shines in the observation scene when he relives his father's death. I think it was Dee's best acting scene ever...

I have seen NEMESIS four times in my life, and doubt I will ever see it again (Unless someone PAID me). I can't think of any acting scene that really sticks out. All I remember from that movie is Picard's big head, and shinzon, because that movie was void of any cinematography...and just a lot of droaning on and on in dark sets.

SYBOK vs SHINZON; TREK V's Sybok, for me, is a far more compelling and interesting character than Shinzon. Luckinbull, I think, nailed the role. People complain he wasn't Vulcan enough: THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE part. He wasn't a "Surakian" Kind of guy. He represents Vulcans who dont accept logic.

STORY; sure, finding God was not that original (Roddenberry's own attempt got nixxed). But Nemesis, being admittedly molded in Khan's image, is just berift of any wonder to it. Where as Sybok anchoring the story of V comes through with some interesting ideas, Shinzon doesn't. He's just written badly, and hard to accept as a clone of Picard.

In BOX OFFICE terms, TREK V really shows how bad a flop NEMESIS was. I think TREK V, even with 1989 dollars, beats NEMESIS with its 2003 dollars and price of a movie ticket.

NEMESIS, for me, is an example, like TREK V, when the talent (Shatner for V) and (Spiner-Stewart) are given to much power. But Shatner's personality, love it or hate it, pushes V to a better result than the dark and dreary, sleep inducing Nemesis.

Rob

Well, I disagree.

I think that the box office results in this case don't speak about the quality, but about the circumstances. FF rode on the wave of success of the previous Trek movies, and it ruined the momentum created by the trilogy (The Voyage Home was one of the highest grossing Trek movies, wasn't it?) Besides, it was the pre-Internet time, when it wasn't that easy for Trek fans to come by old episodes and other Trek stuff as it is today, so they had to make do with what was available. Nemesis, on the other hand, came after the failure of Insurrection, and just cemented the crisis of Trek movie franchise. It was also the time when there was a Trek series on TV - which was not doing all that well. It was generally not a great time for Trek, and nd as I said, in 2002 it was much easier for fans to find old episodes, movies and stuff through Internet, DVDs etc.

As bad as Nemesis is, Final Frontier is worse. There's a lot of awful acting in FF, particularly by the actors playing Klingons and other supporting alien characters, the movie has no pacing, the direction seems amateurish... the entire movie looks amateurish. There are way too many ridiculous and embarrassing attempts at comedy, including the campfire scenes, which seem like a bad parody of Kirk/Spock/McCoy TOS dynamic. The comedy scenes are not funny, while the scenes that should be emotional and serious - like Kirk confronting Spock about not killing Sybok - came off as silly; Shatner's acting was laughably awful there.

The main idea of the movie was not so bad - an anti-Surakian Vulcan who uses his mental powers to influence people and turn them to his cause seems like an interesting concept on paper, but the execution was really bad. He comes off as nothing but a God-obsessed version of Dr Phil. Sybok's interractions and influence on people, the way it is presented in the movie, is very unconvincing. He makes people remember their most painful moments, and they are immediately ready to follow him everywhere? Really?

And here we come to the reason FF particularly annoyed and angered me - it made caricatures out of the TOS characters, destroying any dignity and intergrity they had. The supporting cast fared particularly badly - they are all presented as weak-willed, easily manipulated fools who get brainwashed by Sybok and are willing to immediately betray the Starfleet. Sulu tries to dodge duty in order to stay longer on shore leave with Chekov, and later is one of the first people to get brainwashed by Sybok and betray his captain and Starfleet. Uhura's role consists of doing a naked fan-dance to distract a bunch of drooling morons (what was up with that, didn't they have any women in that colony? Haven't they seen a woman before?!), getting brainwashed by Sybok, and subsequently sexually harassing a terrified Scotty, with whom she's hinted to have had some sort of out of thew blue, implausible romantic thing going on that makes them act like two immature teenagers. Scotty is a silly old man who bumps his head at doorways of the ship he claims to know as the back of his hand. But it could have been worse - apparently, Shatner wanted Spock and McCoy to betray Kirk, too, so Kirk would be the lone Hero of the movie, but Nimoy and Kelley protested. Too bad that the supporting cast did not have as much influence and could not stop the character assassinations of their characters. But, the campfire scenes and other scenes of forced buddy-buddy comedy between the Trio still manages to hurt their characters almost as badly. Some people have wondered if Shatner wanted to hurt the characters of the actors he didn't get along with. If that was the case, it is ironic that he ended up making Kirk into as much a caricature with his awful dialogue and acting.

McCoy's flashback is the only scene in the entire movie that is worth seeing; even Spock's flashback makes no sense (unless you intepret it as an expression of Spock's fears, rather than a real memory, but I doubt that this was the intention), and pretty much every other scene in the movie ranges from bad to awful.

Much of what you didn't like about V, I did. And sorry, but the acting in V is far better than the boring, plodding acting of NEMESIS. It is quite clear that Stewart "mailed" in his performance. He was just..well..bad.


And say all that you want about the actors not liking what shatner wrote, I don't care. Most of the problems of NEMESIS can be put right at Spiner and Stewart's meddling.

IN all he areas that I find more important (Story and Acting) TREK V is better than Nemesis. The story to Nemesis is just utter nonsense, and rips off elements of KHAN, and the acting (from Picard ALL they down to Shinzon) is awful, just awful.

TREK V is the better movie. Oh, yes, ROTTENTOMATOES gives Nemesis a higher rating, but TREK V has the box office.

I will never see NEMESIS again. The only thing Nemesis has going for it is this. The plastic DVD still holds the record as the farthest flying DVD flung of the cliff near my house. The sucker FLEW!!! (old story..but still is told very well here)

Rob

 

[Danlav05]

TREKV as loads of great haracter moments as said above.

Let me put it to you this way - I can get to the end of V.

 

[soot]

Nemesis. Not only is Trek V my least favourite star trek film, I actually really liked Nemesis. It's up there with my favourite Trek movies. Although it didnt always come across in the movies, Nemesis had a really good story line and actually told us some background on the Romulans. I appreciated the film a lot more after reading the novel. And the battle scene at the end was just awsome, the best i've ever seen in Trek. Data's self-sacrifice only adds to the film.

Funny, I'm in the exact opposite position. Despite all its faults, I love Trek V. I think it helped that I first saw it as a child on video, not in the theatre where you may expect somewhat more bang for your buck.

I will say that Nemesis could have been SO much better with a decent edit. Cut the superfluous Argo fight, tighten up the battle at the end, and reinsert half the character moments that they cut, and it wouldn't be bad.

 

[DevilEyes]

TREKV as loads of great haracter moments as said above.

Let me put it to you this way - I can get to the end of V.

You mean, it had loads of great character assassination moments.

 

[Anticitizen]

TREKV as loads of great haracter moments as said above.

Let me put it to you this way - I can get to the end of V.

You mean, it had loads of great character assassination moments.

Less so than The Voyage Home ("Of course he's a Russkie but he's some kind of retard or something"), which both did their 'character assassination' in the form of jokes. The difference is that TVH's jokes were funnier, is all.

 

[DevilEyes]

TREKV as loads of great haracter moments as said above.

Let me put it to you this way - I can get to the end of V.

You mean, it had loads of great character assassination moments.

Less so than The Voyage Home ("Of course he's a Russkie but he's some kind of retard or something"), which both did their 'character assassination' in the form of jokes. The difference is that TVH's jokes were funnier, is all.

Well, I dislike The Voyage Home as well, so you're not going to convince me that way that FF is OK. But at least TVH didn't make any of the main cast betray the Starfleet and act like brainwashed cult members after 5 minutes with a guru who tells them to "embrace their pain" or whatever.

And when it comes to comedy, whether something is funny or not is crucial.

 

[Anticitizen]

at least TVH didn't make any of the main cast betray the Starfleet and act like brainwashed cult members after 5 minutes with a guru who tells them to "embrace their pain" or whatever.

I think the consensus is that Vulcan mind tricks were responsible for that.

 

[DevilEyes]

at least TVH didn't make any of the main cast betray the Starfleet and act like brainwashed cult members after 5 minutes with a guru who tells them to "embrace their pain" or whatever.

I think the consensus is that Vulcan mind tricks were responsible for that.

But somehow they don't work on Kirk?

 

[Haggis and tatties]

STV is more a character piece with some really fantastic moments, Nemesis feels more like the Picard and Data show.

 

[Anticitizen]

at least TVH didn't make any of the main cast betray the Starfleet and act like brainwashed cult members after 5 minutes with a guru who tells them to "embrace their pain" or whatever.

I think the consensus is that Vulcan mind tricks were responsible for that.

But somehow they don't work on Kirk?

He never gave Sybok the chance. He cut him off before Sybok could give him the touchy-feely pain talk.

 

[Destructor]

Nemesis is like a pretty decent episode of TNG. TFF is an utter disaster, the script is bad, the effects are bad, the story is bad and makes no sense, everything about it is bad, bad bad. It sucks. It worse than sucks- it hurts. TFF is not just worse than Nemesis, it's worse than any other movie you care to name.

 

[Candlelight]

He never gave Sybok the chance. He cut him off before Sybok could give him the touchy-feely pain talk.

"Remember when your dad died when you were a baby?"
"My- what?"
"Oh er... "

 

[RobertScorpio]

STV is more a character piece with some really fantastic moments, Nemesis feels more like the Picard and Data show.

...agreed. And for some to think NEMESIS was a 'decent TNG episode' makes you wonder how good that show was then..

STAR TREK has better acting; it isn't even close.
And, IMO, it has the better villain (SYBOK vs SHINZON)...

And I just watched it again..today. Nemesis? Flew it off the cliff near my home, and havent seen it (literally) since...

Rob

 

[Kirk1980]

Decent TNG episode?

Utter drek, more like.

Watch Tapestry sometime and you'll get a better idea of the quality of TNG.