No, the line about "three prototypes" before Data and Lore is from the episode "Inheritance". They are depicted in the novel "Immortal Coil".
Nemesis Question Regarding B-4 and Lore
- Thread starter Brutal Strudel
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No, the line about "three prototypes" before Data and Lore is from the episode "Inheritance". They are depicted in the novel "Immortal Coil".
That doesn't really work for me. If the Enterprise crew knows that Lore has been abducted then you'd think, given their previous encounters with him, the very first thing they'd do is ensure that security protocols were in place precisely to prevent Lore from imitating Data again...especially as they already fell for it at least once.
I suppose you could further finagle things so that the E crew doesn't know that Lore's been taken, but it feels like the credibility level of this story keeps dropping.
dropping more than a plot where Shinzon finds a prototype Soong android, then disassembles him on a desert planet for the crew to find and reassemble, and then access ship info?
And why would it "strain credibility" for them not to know Lore's missing? He's on some remote planet and not under guard or quarantine or anything. They probably haven't given him a second thought in years.
While I understand their reasons for doing it, I do feel sad that all references to Lore were excised from the final cut of the film. Does anyone here know if any of those scenes were actually filmed? Are they out there somewhere in a film vault? Or were they removed during the rewrites, before it ever went in front of the cameras?
The early leaked scripts of Nemesis are on the whole much more in keeping with the tone we all expect from The Next Generation. Lots of cute character moments were sliced out during the editing. I think that's what upsets me the most about NEM... underneath everything there's a decent movie, but they f***ed up the execution of it unfortunately.
The early leaked scripts of Nemesis are on the whole much more in keeping with the tone we all expect from The Next Generation. Lots of cute character moments were sliced out during the editing. I think that's what upsets me the most about NEM... underneath everything there's a decent movie, but they f***ed up the execution of it unfortunately.
You would think if Lore was taken from a presumably secure Starfleet facility (and that's assuming Data wouldn't keep him aboard the Enterprise to begin with), that one of the first things Starfleet would do would be to inform the ship carrying an individual Lore has impersonated before.
You're saying Lore's on some remote planet, but how does he get there? Even if he somehow put himself back together and escaped confinement, Starfleet would still know what happened. It's not as though the TNG folks left Lore on the planet with the Borg in "Descent".
By that standard, it seems more credible to me that Shinzon finds a heretofore unknown Soong android than that he acquires one known to have been procured by Our Heroes.
Isn't that exactly what Andymator was implying? The cut line in Nemesis about Data only knowing about himself and Lore would contradict the fact that there were actually 5 (or 6).
Not really, if the preceding experiments weren't "Data", which is the specific question Data is being asked. For all we know, Lore was the first android to which Soong gave his own noble facial characteristics, and Data was the last. (Assuming, of course, that Soong himself wasn't a further android of this or refined type in "Brothers".)
As for the use of B-4 instead of Lore, it makes IMHO quite a bit of sense that Romulans would have access to a copy of Data. After all, the movie rotates around the fact of them having a copy of Picard! But it would make little sense for the Romulans to possess Lore. The doppelgänger project was apparently abandoned in Shinzon's youth, back when Lore was still at large, and long before he ended up in bits in some Starfleet facility. The dramatically most satisfactory theory of the Romulans dumping their copy of Picard and their (rather unsuccessful) copy of Data at the same time would work fine; the theory of them kidnapping or stealing or buying Lore would screw up the timing.
Timo Saloniemi
As for the use of B-4 instead of Lore, it makes IMHO quite a bit of sense that Romulans would have access to a copy of Data. After all, the movie rotates around the fact of them having a copy of Picard! But it would make little sense for the Romulans to possess Lore. The doppelgänger project was apparently abandoned in Shinzon's youth, back when Lore was still at large, and long before he ended up in bits in some Starfleet facility. The dramatically most satisfactory theory of the Romulans dumping their copy of Picard and their (rather unsuccessful) copy of Data at the same time would work fine; the theory of them kidnapping or stealing or buying Lore would screw up the timing.
Timo Saloniemi
It was never said in "Inheritance" that the three other prototypes were Data facsimiles; they may have barely resembled a human. "Immortal Coil" also deliberately kept it vague, only mentioning that Data had gone back and retrieved them from his old colony world after Juliana had told him about the previous three prototypes. They are now on display in his lab on the Enterprise.
Andymator said it was a cut line from "Nemesis", but it wasn't. A movie is not the time to suddenly mention a barely remembered factoid from an episode.
Agreed, I think Therin has misinterpreted the comment.
Re the androids looking like Data, I don't think that's really relevant to the line when putting it in context:
I suppose it depends how literal you take Geordi when he says "you", does he mean "you" as an android or "you" as specifically an android that looks like Data.
Maybe its a good thing the line was cut!
Yup, that context sorta removes the relevance of whether the things look like Data or not - as long as they send out positronic bleeps, they should count.
If the dialogue came later, after our heroes had picked up (at least some of) the pieces, then Data could exclude the prototypes from consideration. It might have been a cute line, but all things considered, good riddance!
timo Saloniemi
If the dialogue came later, after our heroes had picked up (at least some of) the pieces, then Data could exclude the prototypes from consideration. It might have been a cute line, but all things considered, good riddance!
timo Saloniemi
So happy Data's line didn't make it into the film. Its very cringe worthy.
^ Me, myself and Lore. Isn't that the sequel to Me, Myself and Irene which doesn't have any involvement from Jim Carrey or the Farrelly Brothers?
I'm not sure how well Lore would have worked in Nemesis. Lore was always a clever and intelligent foe. The interaction between Shinzon and Lore would have been:
Shinzon: "I'm going to disassemble you and hide your parts on a remote planet, so Picard and crew can find you."
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon (on board the Scimitar): "The Enterprise has arrived at Romulus. I have a medical condition in which I will die in a few days unless I get Picard's blood. Let's wait for a full 24 hours before we decloak and contact them."
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon: "I control the Romulan empire and it's entire fleet, we have one of the most powerful vessels in the galaxy, the Enterprise is alone orbiting our home planet and I need Picard's blood. Let's wait for him to break orbit and warp out before we attack!"
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon: "The plan is to attack Earth for no reason."
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon: "I'm going to disassemble you and hide your parts on a remote planet, so Picard and crew can find you."
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon (on board the Scimitar): "The Enterprise has arrived at Romulus. I have a medical condition in which I will die in a few days unless I get Picard's blood. Let's wait for a full 24 hours before we decloak and contact them."
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon: "I control the Romulan empire and it's entire fleet, we have one of the most powerful vessels in the galaxy, the Enterprise is alone orbiting our home planet and I need Picard's blood. Let's wait for him to break orbit and warp out before we attack!"
Lore: <facepalm>
Shinzon: "The plan is to attack Earth for no reason."
Lore: <facepalm>
LOL, your right. I think Lore would be the smarter villian of the movie
I'm not sure the movie would have been all that much better without these specific bits.
How else would the spy get aboard Picard's ship? It's two-birds-with-one-stone tactics here, as Picard's ship now also becomes the one closest to Romulus. It was actually pretty clever, down to drafting the aid of locals to keep Picard from stopping to think...
I doubt Shinzon "waited". He had just conquered Romulus - surely there'd be quite a few odds and ends to take care of. Such as stopping the next six clowns in the line from repeating the feat, as palace coups probably happen every Tuesday on Romulus.
Shinzon didn't really appear to control much - the only other Romulan vessels we saw chose to oppose him. And a plan to attack the Federation was just what he had promised to his Romulan backers, not what he personally wanted.
More specifically, the plan was to destroy Earth for no reason. Apparently either because Shinzon was batshit crazy - or because that was the full extent of his amazing Spartacus superpowers (just one ship, just one exceptionally short life), and he could never hope to achieve other kinds of victory, so why not go for something flashy (i.e. he was batshit crazy)?
Timo Saloniemi
How else would the spy get aboard Picard's ship? It's two-birds-with-one-stone tactics here, as Picard's ship now also becomes the one closest to Romulus. It was actually pretty clever, down to drafting the aid of locals to keep Picard from stopping to think...
I doubt Shinzon "waited". He had just conquered Romulus - surely there'd be quite a few odds and ends to take care of. Such as stopping the next six clowns in the line from repeating the feat, as palace coups probably happen every Tuesday on Romulus.
Shinzon didn't really appear to control much - the only other Romulan vessels we saw chose to oppose him. And a plan to attack the Federation was just what he had promised to his Romulan backers, not what he personally wanted.
More specifically, the plan was to destroy Earth for no reason. Apparently either because Shinzon was batshit crazy - or because that was the full extent of his amazing Spartacus superpowers (just one ship, just one exceptionally short life), and he could never hope to achieve other kinds of victory, so why not go for something flashy (i.e. he was batshit crazy)?
Timo Saloniemi
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