Nemesis or Wrath of Khan?

[eyeresist]

enterprisecvn65, I agree about the battle in NEM. The ships are much too close to each other! But maybe they thought more of a stand-off would be too close to TWOK.

Data's death - failed to move due to introducing an obvious out in the form of B4.

I think Data's death failed to move just because it was badly set up and badly staged. I find final scene with Picard and B4 more moving, with its implication that the dead live on in the next generation (no pun intended). Only problem with that scene is the incredibly distracting spaceship moving around in the background.

Shinzon needs a transfusion of some sort and wants to destroy Earth. Okay.

Well, he needs Picard's body in order to save himself from imminent death. He wants to destroy Earth due to his deep issues about being a clone - he feels he can't exist authentically unless he destroys the original of which he is the copy. I think it's a really interesting psychological motivation, but maybe some find it too subtle.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Superficially, like many movies there are similarities. But I never once thought of Nemesis as a rip-off.
But I've always hated Khan (in the movie, he was great in Space Seed) and never understood the adoration he's gotten (he's never once shown to be brilliant despite everybody saying he was and, in fact, he's flat out dumb and "revenge" as a motivation for his own stupidity that he projects onto Kirk irks me even more. He chose that life over what was offered, the idiot should be grateful he had that chance given to him).

While Shinzon I get. Who are his enemies? The Romulans. So he takes over them and they become his subjects in the way he once was. Who are their enemies? The Federation. Crush them next and make sure they can't do anything to prevent your reign after being downtrodden for so long. It's pretty simple bully and conquest mentality that's shaped our planet for ages. Add to that he wants to kill Picard so that he can feel like he's more than simply a clone (plus he needs the blood to survive, there's a lot going on), there's some good stuff in here!

But I did hate the car chase scene in Nemesis. I get it on paper (mid-life crisis for the Captain, the kids are leaving the nest so to speak) but it was just awkwardly done. Really, that's my only real complaint about the movie.

 

[eyeresist]

Yeah, Khan's superiority seems to be based on charisma. Of course, if he really had a vastly superior intellect, Kirk wouldn't be able to beat him.

 

[Ithekro]

Technically, at the speeds these ships are suppose to be going, even in sublight, they could easily fly around like fighter jets. Jets are slow compared to these starships.

 

[eyeresist]

They can move fast in a straight line, but shouldn't really be capable of dogfight maneuvers.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Technically, at the speeds these ships are suppose to be going, even in sublight, they could easily fly around like fighter jets. Jets are slow compared to these starships.

Speed has nothing to do with it. A B-1 bomber has a top speed close to fighter jets like the F-16, but simply cannot pull off the kind of tight turning and other dogfighting moves like the fighter because it is so much larger.

In fact the B-1 cannot even manuver as well as WWII fighter planes that only had a top speed about a third of the B-1. In fact often the slower you go the tighter and quicker you can turn.

It's about size......

Like the previous poster said so if starships are fast that means they can haul ass more or less in a straight line. It doesn't mean they should be able to fly around like X-wing fighters.

And the faster they were going the longer it would actually take longer to make dogfighting like moves.

Sorry TWOK showed it like it would more likely be like if huge ships in space engaged each other.

Nemesis showed the "Top Gun" version of starships fighting.

 

[dub]

Nemesis or Wrath of Khan?

Wrath of Khan.

 

[Smellmet]

Technically, at the speeds these ships are suppose to be going, even in sublight, they could easily fly around like fighter jets. Jets are slow compared to these starships.

Speed has nothing to do with it. A B-1 bomber has a top speed close to fighter jets like the F-16, but simply cannot pull off the kind of tight turning and other dogfighting moves like the fighter because it is so much larger.

In fact the B-1 cannot even manuver as well as WWII fighter planes that only had a top speed about a third of the B-1. In fact often the slower you go the tighter and quicker you can turn.

It's about size......

Like the previous poster said so if starships are fast that means they can haul ass more or less in a straight line. It doesn't mean they should be able to fly around like X-wing fighters.

And the faster they were going the longer it would actually take longer to make dogfighting like moves.

Sorry TWOK showed it like it would more likely be like if huge ships in space engaged each other.

Nemesis showed the "Top Gun" version of starships fighting.

I thought the ships moved like big lumbering starships personally, they made manoeuvres in line with ships that were nearly 100 years more advanced that from the TOS era in my opinion. Now the battle in Return of the Jedi - that's a dogfight, Nemesis was nothing like that.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Yeah, Khan's superiority seems to be based on charisma. Of course, if he really had a vastly superior intellect, Kirk wouldn't be able to beat him.

Khan was arrogant, and that will rob anyone of common sense, as they are too busy assuming superiority over opponents, instead of understanding them.

That, and Kirk was an experienced Starfleet officer who engaged in space battles with all kinds of species with very individualized strategies. Coming away from that--and being smart enough to play mind games with Khan's arrogance--gave him an advantage.

Nemesis showed the "Top Gun" version of starships fighting.

NEM was about as nonsensical as Top Gun.

 

[eyeresist]

I thought the ships moved like big lumbering starships personally, they made manoeuvres in line with ships that were nearly 100 years more advanced that from the TOS era in my opinion.

I think the problem isn't the maneuvers as such, but the close proximity of the ships, which seems unnecessary and dangerous. In fact, the battle would have had more tension if the ships were further apart, e.g. the face-off before Picard rams Shinzon.

 

[velour]

enterprisecvn65, that was a pretty good play-by-play of the Enterprise/Reliant battle scenes. I liked the color commentary that came along with it.

That, and Kirk was an experienced Starfleet officer who engaged in space battles with all kinds of species with very individualized strategies. Coming away from that--and being smart enough to play mind games with Khan's arrogance--gave him an advantage.

Spock said as much during the battle.

Spock to Kirk: "He's intelligent but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking."

Khan's hubris got the better of him. Kirk played Khan like a cheap fiddle. It seemed like most of Khan's genetic engineering went towards his fake pecs than to increasing his brain power.

 

[eyeresist]

The pecs were real, man!

 

[EnriqueH]

Nemesis has an "out of gas" feel throughout and it has nothing to do with TWOK being a predecessor.

I haven't seen the movie since 2002, but there are a few memories that I can still remember vividly.

We're just starting the movie and it's already being repetitive: ANOTHER Dr. Soong android. Picard hauling ass on that dune buggy feels a little too out of character.

Did anyone really suspend their disbelief and really "believe" that Tom Hardy was a Patrick Stewart clone?

Tom Hardy did his best, and both he and Patrick Stewart really tried to sell the idea, but the whole thing was a massive failure. The picture of Tom Hardy while Picard was sitting on his desk? Hahahaha, nice try.

This was an idea that looked good on paper, I'm sure, but the execution? Ooof.

I saw it twice in theaters, and TRIED to watch it a few times since then but never finished it. I've also caught a scene here and there on TV over the years, but I just couldn't get into it. (I'm going to watch it a third time---finally---when I get to it chronologically in my franchise run-through.)

Even with Data dying and a massive battle, you can just tell there's a desperate attempt to save the franchise at this point. It all feels like arbitrary and phony.

I can remember sitting in the theater and watching the space battle and thinking, "Why isn't this more exciting? This is the part where I'm SUPPOSED to be really feeling it." And I think it's because everything that came before was boring, uninspired, and repetitive.

I didn't always agree with Roger Ebert, but I did think he got it right when he said, "Star Trek was kind of terrific at one point, but now it's just a copy of a copy of a copy..."

 

[Ithekro]

Has someone figured how fast Enterprise and Reliant are moving relative to each other based on their model's movments?

These ships, relative to their size and large thrusters could probaby do whatever maneuver they want. While they look better moving like slow lumbering capital ships, they probably can move like a jet fighter without too much issue given how good the inertia dampeners are. They could likely more better than a jet fighter since they don't have to deal with things like gravity, drag, and air resistance. They just have to deal with their own thrust and what laws of physics still apply to Federation science. Hull stress from the course changes doesn't seem to effect them all that much either given what they do at warp speeds. As long as the compensators keep the crew from being red, blue, or green stains on the walls (depending on species).

They look better slow and lumbering, but that is likely our mental limitations rather than the technological limits. We are on Khan's level of starship combat at best. Barely able to handle three dimentional thinking, much less realistic distances and speeds of starship combat in the 23rd and 24th centures. Our movie screens couldn't show it really. It would be too distant, too fast, and potentally not theatical enough.

 

[PCz911]

Nemesis has an "out of gas" feel throughout and it has nothing to do with TWOK being a predecessor.

I haven't seen the movie since 2002, but there are a few memories that I can still remember vividly.

We're just starting the movie and it's already being repetitive: ANOTHER Dr. Soong android. Picard hauling ass on that dune buggy feels a little too out of character.

Did anyone really suspend their disbelief and really "believe" that Tom Hardy was a Patrick Stewart clone?

Tom Hardy did his best, and both he and Patrick Stewart really tried to sell the idea, but the whole thing was a massive failure. The picture of Tom Hardy while Picard was sitting on his desk? Hahahaha, nice try.

This was an idea that looked good on paper, I'm sure, but the execution? Ooof.

I saw it twice in theaters, and TRIED to watch it a few times since then but never finished it. I've also caught a scene here and there on TV over the years, but I just couldn't get into it. (I'm going to watch it a third time---finally---when I get to it chronologically in my franchise run-through.)

Even with Data dying and a massive battle, you can just tell there's a desperate attempt to save the franchise at this point. It all feels like arbitrary and phony.

I can remember sitting in the theater and watching the space battle and thinking, "Why isn't this more exciting? This is the part where I'm SUPPOSED to be really feeling it." And I think it's because everything that came before was boring, uninspired, and repetitive.

I didn't always agree with Roger Ebert, but I did think he got it right when he said, "Star Trek was kind of terrific at one point, but now it's just a copy of a copy of a copy..."

Well said. This is the only star trek movie I went to the premiere of. Pre Movie the excitement was palatable. All the stars were there, Hollywood royalty. Afterwards someone turned to me and asked "are all star trek movies like this?".

 

[Mjolnir2000]

All I know is that Nemesis was the first Star Trek film I actually disliked. I tried watching it a second time a few months ago. Couldn't make it all the way through. It's a terrible film. At no point is it able to make me care in the slightest what happens next.

Wrath of Khan, on the other hand, is just wonderful. I suspect most people of my generation would find it incredibly slow, but I've always appreciated suspense more than action. Action gets boring after the first minute or two, whereas suspense can just keep building and building for good a chunk of a film.

But then I also loved Insurrection, so clearly I'm not exactly representative of most fans.

 

[eyeresist]

I can remember sitting in the theater and watching the space battle and thinking, "Why isn't this more exciting? This is the part where I'm SUPPOSED to be really feeling it." And I think it's because everything that came before was boring, uninspired, and repetitive.

I've discovered from repeated viewings that the film really sags from about the 80 minute mark (near the beginning of the space battle), which is ironic considering Baird's rep as an editor.