Nemesis II - by me...

[Cmndr J Crichton]

As a fan script project of course. I would like to do it in the style of Spiner/Berman/Logan/ to keep with continuity (And a little humor.). Any suggestions?

There has to be a reason for Worf to be there.

An unexplained chase scene on a planet terrain, or in space.

It's gonna involve heavily on Data, Romulans, and Vulcans.

A big space battle in the end involving The Titan, and The Enterprise, and enemy ships.

A countdown to something exploding just before Picard saves the day.

I'm toying with the idea of making Data the villain. He could switch from B-4 (Villain) to Data at any time. By closing the Data Character, Picard & Co. find a way to download the good side of Data into a holodeck program. B-4 and Data clash in am elaborate Holodeck sequence, mirroring the space combat.

The idea just came to me. I can't believe no one's thought of this before. I'm thinking this is kind of like the Star Wars Virtual Sequel project The Force.net came up with a few years ago.

I don't have a title yet, for now it's Star Trek Nemesis II.

 

[knine]

I can't decide if you're joking or serious.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

There has to be a reason for Worf to be there.

"I was on my way to the annual Starfleet Pot Luck in the Laurentian System, then I ran out of gas, and-"

 

[Cmndr J Crichton]

A little something I came up with late one night....you know how that goes. I still think it would be a fun idea to do a fan made sequel to Nemesis.

 

[Dukhat]

As a fan script project of course. I would like to do it in the style of Spiner/Berman/Logan/ to keep with continuity (And a little humor.). Any suggestions?

There has to be a reason for Worf to be there.

An unexplained chase scene on a planet terrain, or in space.

It's gonna involve heavily on Data, Romulans, and Vulcans.

A big space battle in the end involving The Titan, and The Enterprise, and enemy ships.

A countdown to something exploding just before Picard saves the day.

I'm toying with the idea of making Data the villain. He could switch from B-4 (Villain) to Data at any time. By closing the Data Character, Picard & Co. find a way to download the good side of Data into a holodeck program. B-4 and Data clash in am elaborate Holodeck sequence, mirroring the space combat.

The idea just came to me. I can't believe no one's thought of this before. I'm thinking this is kind of like the Star Wars Virtual Sequel project The Force.net came up with a few years ago.

I don't have a title yet, for now it's Star Trek Nemesis II.

I had written a synopsis at one point for a Nemesis rewrite, but alas, the file has vanished into the ether. However, the gist of it was this:

1. Patrick Stewart plays both Picard and Shinzon.

2. The Remans look like Romulans, not like Nosferatu rejects.

3. The Scimitar is the Romulans' flagship that Shinzon steals after killing the government leaders. (How could the Reman slaves have found the time or had the facilities to build a huge ship like the Scimitar completely under the Romulans' noses?)

4. B4 is found floating in space instead of being buried on a planet thanks to Shinzon's ridiculously convoluted plan.

5. Shinzon wants to destroy Romulus, not Earth (what the hell did Shinzon have against Earth?)

6. Shinzon is defeated thanks to help from both the Romulans and those other ships from Starfleet Battle Group Omega.

7. Data doesn't die; becomes first officer.

8. You actually see Will and Deanna say their last goodbyes and leave on the Titan.

9. And who the fuck cares about Geordi, Worf, and Dr. Crusher, because really, who ever cared about them in these movies?

 

[Cmndr J Crichton]

I like the idea of B4 flying through space, and the Enterprise 'discovering him'. Even more neat, would be that it's actually Lore reprogrammed.

 

[USS KG5]

I don't think Nemesis was that far off being good, the basics were not too bad, the script just needed a lot of rewrites so it made sense. The difference between a very good and very bad film is often simply execution.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think Nemesis was that far off being good, the basics were not too bad, the script just needed a lot of rewrites so it made sense. The difference between a very good and very bad film is often simply execution.

Exactly. Even in the few minutes it took me to write my above points, it would have made the movie significantly better (IMHO):

1. Having Patrick Stewart play both roles a) negates the need for another actor, b) allows us to completely believe Shinzon is a clone and not a young kid who looks nothing like Picard, and c) allow Stewart to play a mirror-universe version of Picard.

2. Having the Remans look like Romulans a) keeps with established ideas that both worlds were populated by Romulans, even if one sect turned out to be "undesirable," b) gets rid of the ambiguity of the Remans' origins (are they aliens? Are they Romulans who underwent some kind of bizarre genetic mutation?), and c) gets rid of the horrible vampire-like makeup and prosthetics that were completely unnecessary to the plot.

3. Having the Scimitar as the Romulans' flagship that Shinzon steals after killing the government leaders negates the problem of how the Reman slaves could have found the time or had the facilities to build a huge ship like the Scimitar completely under the Romulans' noses.

4. Having B4 found floating in space in the Enterprise's flight path to Romulus instead of being buried on a planet gets rid of Shinzon's convoluted plan to get B4 on the Enterprise to begin with. And it gets rid of that stupid, stupid dune buggy scene.

5. Instead of the hokey "I need Picard's blood to survive" story, why not have Shinzon's motivation instead be to ask for Picard's help in destroying Romulus? This puts Picard in a tense situation: Should he help Shinzon destroy an enemy of the Federation, or help that enemy by stopping his own alter-ego? Now that's good writing, if I do say so myself.

6. Obviously Picard will choose to defend Romulus from Shinzon's plans, even though Romulus is an enemy of the Federation. So once the Romulans learn that the Enterprise is fighting for their side, Donatra's ships help defeat the Scimitar, along with those other ships from Starfleet Battle Group Omega. (I mean, if you're going to tease us with a graphic of a fleet of starships that could potentially help, then there should be a payoff with actually showing those ships, right?)

7. Data's death was completely meaningless and unnecessary. I've heard that Brent Spiner didn't want to play him anymore because he couldn't justify Data aging as Spiner aged. OK, fine, just don't play him anymore, Brent. But don't kill him off. Have him go away on a fifty-year deep space mission at the end of the movie then, or have him retire to Cambridge like in "All Good Things..." if you never want the audience to see him again, and it's positive closure for the character.

8. Being able to actually see Will and Deanna say their last goodbyes and leave on the Titan also brings good closure to their story. And we actually get to see the ship that Picard made such a fuss about at their wedding.

9. And my callous remarks about Geordi, Worf, and Dr. Crusher aside, just have them continue to serve with Picard. That way, if there were another TNG movie made, it would FINALLY focus on them instead of making them background characters like all the previous TNG movies did. Make Worf the first officer, in line to captain the ship once Picard retires. Hell, have Crusher and Picard get married. That'd be a great ending to the TNG movie line. (Hey, these ideas sound awfully familiar. I wonder why...?)


See? I wrote this stuff in a few minutes. Why couldn't Nemesis's editors have done the same thing?

 

[USS KG5]

1. Having Patrick Stewart play both roles a) negates the need for another actor, b) allows us to completely believe Shinzon is a clone and not a young kid who looks nothing like Picard, and c) allow Stewart to play a mirror-universe version of Picard.

I'm in two minds about this. In order to make sense it would have to be done VERY well, and while I think the production team could have made a good movie with Tom Hardy (essentially playing someone different and saying "BTW I'm Picard's clone") I'm just not sure an "evil" Picard would work.

2. Having the Remans look like Romulans a) keeps with established ideas that both worlds were populated by Romulans, even if one sect turned out to be "undesirable,"

Well I actually thought the Remans, Nosferatu knock-offs that they were, were pretty decent antagonists.

3. Having the Scimitar as the Romulans' flagship that Shinzon steals after killing the government leaders negates the problem of how the Reman slaves could have found the time or had the facilities to build a huge ship like the Scimitar completely under the Romulans' noses.

Well yes, not a HUGE problem, they could also have said it was Shinzon's flagship from the Dominion War "presumed" destroyed.

4. Having B4 found floating in space in the Enterprise's flight path to Romulus instead of being buried on a planet gets rid of Shinzon's convoluted plan to get B4 on the Enterprise to begin with. And it gets rid of that stupid, stupid dune buggy scene.

Wholeheartedly agreed about the Dune Buggy, B4 was just crap though. I saw what they were trying to do in paralleling Picard and Data's stories, but it did not come across in the film.

This story again could easily have been done well, it just wasn't.

5. Instead of the hokey "I need Picard's blood to survive" story, why not have Shinzon's motivation instead be to ask for Picard's help in destroying Romulus?

This wouldn't work. Picard, or any Starfleet Captain, would just say no to assisting in genocide. It would make a much worse Trek film than even Nemesis was to act that way.

Plus WAY too "dark" for Trek, even Pale Moonlight didn't go that far.

Even if your Picard chose the light path, there is no drama at all because it is WAY too obvious a choice.

(I mean, if you're going to tease us with a graphic of a fleet of starships that could potentially help, then there should be a payoff with actually showing those ships, right?)

The battle scene was already the centrepiece of the film and goes on for ages, a few more ships would just mean a few more explosions. Trek is not really supposed to be all explosions.

7. Data's death was completely meaningless and unnecessary. I've heard that Brent Spiner didn't want to play him anymore because he couldn't justify Data aging as Spiner aged. OK, fine, just don't play him anymore, Brent. But don't kill him off. Have him go away on a fifty-year deep space mission at the end of the movie then, or have him retire to Cambridge like in "All Good Things..."

Data's death was one of a handful of things that the movie at least TRIED to do right, his final and most human action being to die for his shipmates makes a good ending to his story.

Death is a nasty reality of Starfleet, I think Trek needs the odd character death, helps with the emotional impact of a story.

8. Being able to actually see Will and Deanna say their last goodbyes and leave on the Titan also brings good closure to their story. And we actually get to see the ship that Picard made such a fuss about at their wedding.

It brings good fan-service, it adds nothing to the story, which is about Shinzon and the Romulans etc, the story has nothing of value relating to Riker and Troi and therefore nothing to conclude.

NOW if the story had a decent plot with Riker and Troi, it would make a good ending.

9. And my callous remarks about Geordi, Worf, and Dr. Crusher aside...See? I wrote this stuff in a few minutes. Why couldn't Nemesis's editors have done the same thing?

Well, not to be too critical but you have not written anything there, you have just said how you would tweak certain aspects of the story to make them more palletable to you, you would need to do far more to convince anyone you actually have a better script for Nemesis.

Really Nemesis needed precisely three things: -

1. More re-writes, most films get many more.
2. A less cynical production team.
3. A producer who would stand up to Stewart and Spiner.

 

[vess]

There has to be a reason for Worf to be there.

This always seemed very "Scooby Doo" in nature. "Oh no, something's wrong with the Mystery Machine. What's that? a mystery for us to solve?"

First Contat aside, Worf didn't belong in the TNG era movies.

 

[nx1701g]

There has to be a reason for Worf to be there.

"I was on my way to the annual Starfleet Pot Luck in the Laurentian System, then I ran out of gas, and-"

Makes sense to me.

 

[Dukhat]

1. Having Patrick Stewart play both roles a) negates the need for another actor, b) allows us to completely believe Shinzon is a clone and not a young kid who looks nothing like Picard, and c) allow Stewart to play a mirror-universe version of Picard.

I'm in two minds about this. In order to make sense it would have to be done VERY well, and while I think the production team could have made a good movie with Tom Hardy (essentially playing someone different and saying "BTW I'm Picard's clone") I'm just not sure an "evil" Picard would work.

2. Having the Remans look like Romulans a) keeps with established ideas that both worlds were populated by Romulans, even if one sect turned out to be "undesirable,"

Well I actually thought the Remans, Nosferatu knock-offs that they were, were pretty decent antagonists.



Well yes, not a HUGE problem, they could also have said it was Shinzon's flagship from the Dominion War "presumed" destroyed.



Wholeheartedly agreed about the Dune Buggy, B4 was just crap though. I saw what they were trying to do in paralleling Picard and Data's stories, but it did not come across in the film.

This story again could easily have been done well, it just wasn't.



This wouldn't work. Picard, or any Starfleet Captain, would just say no to assisting in genocide. It would make a much worse Trek film than even Nemesis was to act that way.

Plus WAY too "dark" for Trek, even Pale Moonlight didn't go that far.

Even if your Picard chose the light path, there is no drama at all because it is WAY too obvious a choice.



The battle scene was already the centrepiece of the film and goes on for ages, a few more ships would just mean a few more explosions. Trek is not really supposed to be all explosions.



Data's death was one of a handful of things that the movie at least TRIED to do right, his final and most human action being to die for his shipmates makes a good ending to his story.

Death is a nasty reality of Starfleet, I think Trek needs the odd character death, helps with the emotional impact of a story.

8. Being able to actually see Will and Deanna say their last goodbyes and leave on the Titan also brings good closure to their story. And we actually get to see the ship that Picard made such a fuss about at their wedding.

It brings good fan-service, it adds nothing to the story, which is about Shinzon and the Romulans etc, the story has nothing of value relating to Riker and Troi and therefore nothing to conclude.

NOW if the story had a decent plot with Riker and Troi, it would make a good ending.

9. And my callous remarks about Geordi, Worf, and Dr. Crusher aside...See? I wrote this stuff in a few minutes. Why couldn't Nemesis's editors have done the same thing?

Well, not to be too critical but you have not written anything there, you have just said how you would tweak certain aspects of the story to make them more palletable to you, you would need to do far more to convince anyone you actually have a better script for Nemesis.

Really Nemesis needed precisely three things: -

1. More re-writes, most films get many more.
2. A less cynical production team.
3. A producer who would stand up to Stewart and Spiner.

1. But the whole beauty of it is that I'm 100% sure Patrick Stewart could have pulled off an anti-Picard. And I don't mean Tom Hardy's Shinzon's over-the-top nonsense and "Hey, everybody, I'm evil because I walk around in the dark, wear this evil-looking rubber costume, and bitch about how my life sucks" mentality.

2. Meh. The Remans were the most cardboard-y villians in all of Trek. The whole point (I think) was that the audience was supposed to have some sort of sympathetic feeling toward them because they're slaves and were treated badly. Did you have any sympathy for them? I sure didn't, because the decision was made to make them "Evil!!!" by making them look like scary vampires for no apparent reason.

3. The Scimitar. The point I was trying to make was that if the Remans were going to build any kind of ship at all, they'd be building Romulan ships. Even if they were stealing materiel to build their own ship in secret (which is highly unlikely, but that's what the movie states), then why would they bother designing a ship that looks completely unlike a Romulan ship?

4. I also agree about B4. The only reason he's in the movie is because a) Shinzon needed to get him onto the Enterprise in order to kidnap Picard, and b) because since Picard had an alter-ego, Data needed one too, since this movie is only about Picard and Data.

5. Picard helping Shinzon: You might not have understood the point I was making. In the movie, the Romulans want to attack Earth, and they needed Shinzon's help to do so (why, I have no idea...). But Shinzon doesn't have anything against Earth...he hates Romulans, not humans! So in my version, he would have told Picard what the Romulans were up to and offer him an ultimatum: If you don't help me destroy the Romulans, they're going to destroy Earth.

6. I'm talking about a different battle scene that what was portrayed in the movie. Instead of the over-long battle and ramming scene with the Enterprise and Scimitar, there would instead be a battle between the Enterprise/Romulans/Starfleet ships, and the Scimitar. You may not like space battles, but I do if they're done right.

7. Sorry, I don't agree at all that Data's death was done right, or was even necessary at all, especially since there was a HUGE implication that sooner or later B4 was going to become Data, effectively negating any kind of emotional backlash about the character dying.

8. Riker/Troi/Geordi, etc.: It doesn't matter that the movie wasn't about them. These characters are people we cared about and grew up with in TNG, and they deserved far better treatment than what they got in these four movies. Having them get a nice send-off was the least that could have been done with them.


I accept your criticisms, but my point wasn't to re-write Nemesis, it was to do exactly what you said: tweaking certain aspects of the story to make them more palatable to me. I agree that it's entirely subjective, but I was working with what I was given, not coming up with something entirely new. You seem to be saying that Nemesis needed to be an entirely different movie in order for it to work, but I don't agree.

 

[USS KG5]

1. But the whole beauty of it is that I'm 100% sure Patrick Stewart could have pulled off an anti-Picard. And I don't mean Tom Hardy's Shinzon's over-the-top nonsense and "Hey, everybody, I'm evil because I walk around in the dark, wear this evil-looking rubber costume, and bitch about how my life sucks" mentality.

Sure Stewart could pull off anything, just you would also need a much better director, and a much better script!

2. Meh. The Remans were the most cardboard-y villians in all of Trek. The whole point (I think) was that the audience was supposed to have some sort of sympathetic feeling toward them because they're slaves and were treated badly. Did you have any sympathy for them? I sure didn't, because the decision was made to make them "Evil!!!" by making them look like scary vampires for no apparent reason.

Oh yeah agreed the Remans are DAFT, good make-up work though.

3. The Scimitar. The point I was trying to make was that if the Remans were going to build any kind of ship at all, they'd be building Romulan ships. Even if they were stealing materiel to build their own ship in secret (which is highly unlikely, but that's what the movie states), then why would they bother designing a ship that looks completely unlike a Romulan ship?

They don't like the Romulans? Honestly the problem is the BEST way to explain bad rebels having a top-of-the-line ship is having them pinch it, but trek has already done this twice in the movies.

5. Picard helping Shinzon: You might not have understood the point I was making. In the movie, the Romulans want to attack Earth, and they needed Shinzon's help to do so (why, I have no idea...). But Shinzon doesn't have anything against Earth...he hates Romulans, not humans! So in my version, he would have told Picard what the Romulans were up to and offer him an ultimatum: If you don't help me destroy the Romulans, they're going to destroy Earth.

No I get you - the point is there is no drama as in Star Trek Picard would ALWAYS say no, to have drama you would need the possibility he would say yes. There is not enough here for the kind of ambiguity you are shooting for, your criticism is correct (what attack Earth, why?) but you need another mcguffin.

6. I'm talking about a different battle scene that what was portrayed in the movie. Instead of the over-long battle and ramming scene with the Enterprise and Scimitar, there would instead be a battle between the Enterprise/Romulans/Starfleet ships, and the Scimitar. You may not like space battles, but I do if they're done right.

I like space battles - but they should be a result of the story, I dont think more ships make them inherently better.

7. Sorry, I don't agree at all that Data's death was done right, or was even necessary at all, especially since there was a HUGE implication that sooner or later B4 was going to become Data, effectively negating any kind of emotional backlash about the character dying.

I didn't say it was done right, I said they tried to do it right. As compared to say Trip where it was "OK he's dead, lets get on with it". I don't have a problem with killing characters off, as it signals an ending rather well, but it was not done well in this movie.

8. Riker/Troi/Geordi, etc.: It doesn't matter that the movie wasn't about them. These characters are people we cared about and grew up with in TNG, and they deserved far better treatment than what they got in these four movies.

I dont really disagree but that is more an argument for just not making TNG movies than anything else, considering AGT ended the show so brilliantly. It is not like there were any great character stories for Chekov or Uhura in TUC, they were support to the big three (though Sulu got a cool ending).

I accept your criticisms, but my point wasn't to re-write Nemesis, it was to do exactly what you said: tweaking certain aspects of the story to make them more palatable to me. I agree that it's entirely subjective, but I was working with what I was given, not coming up with something entirely new. You seem to be saying that Nemesis needed to be an entirely different movie in order for it to work, but I don't agree.

No, I'm not saying that, in fact I'd say it needed FEWER changes than you are proposing. A nature/nurture story told with the TNG crew could have easily been very good, and the basic story was in fact OK. It just needed to be overall better scripted.

The Usual Suspects, for example, is a total mess of a film in a lot of ways, essentially a series of diversions to make its ending a big surprise, but damn its a good movie, because of its characters, acting, script and direction.

 

[RobertScorpio]

As a fan script project of course. I would like to do it in the style of Spiner/Berman/Logan/ to keep with continuity (And a little humor.). Any suggestions?

There has to be a reason for Worf to be there.

An unexplained chase scene on a planet terrain, or in space.

It's gonna involve heavily on Data, Romulans, and Vulcans.

A big space battle in the end involving The Titan, and The Enterprise, and enemy ships.

A countdown to something exploding just before Picard saves the day.

I'm toying with the idea of making Data the villain. He could switch from B-4 (Villain) to Data at any time. By closing the Data Character, Picard & Co. find a way to download the good side of Data into a holodeck program. B-4 and Data clash in am elaborate Holodeck sequence, mirroring the space combat.

The idea just came to me. I can't believe no one's thought of this before. I'm thinking this is kind of like the Star Wars Virtual Sequel project The Force.net came up with a few years ago.

I don't have a title yet, for now it's Star Trek Nemesis II.

Being an absolute hater of Nemesis, I like what you've done here. I say write a script just for the hell of it, or a fan fic. Would be fun to read either way.

rob

 

[Herbert1]

At the end of "Descent Part II", Geordi shot and dismantled Lore. It was never established what was done with the Lore pieces. They could have been transported to a storage facility that was destroyed or compromised during the Dominion War. Romulans, Shinzon, or the Remans could have found the pieces. Lore's positronic brain could have been modfied or retarded in some fashion creating the B4 personality. The Lore personality being supressed by damage or intentional alteration. (I never liked the idea of there being yet another Soong android.)

I think that it would be dramatically interesting if the B4 body began to have multiple personalities. The Lore and Data personalities could battle within the same brain/body. At the end, the Data personality could triumph over the Lore.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Dukhat I like most if not all of your ideas you presented...always thought it made better sense for Stewart to play Shinzon and if not I would have had Michael Shanks play him (I remember reading rumors that he had auditioned for the role). I believe that Shinzon's motivation for wanting to destroy Earth was to cripple the Federation by taking out its heart and soul. I agree that him attacking Romulus makes more sense as does making the Remans an exiled sect of Romulans or better yet just Romulans. Remus was long described as being a "twin" world of Romulus anyways. I like the idea of the Scimitar being a Romulan flagship that Shinzon and his sect steal or perhaps is given in the military alliance with Sonatra. I would have used Sela in my rewrite as being the person behind everything in Nemesis. Sela has emotional resonance with both Picard and Data and unfinished business with them as well after her disgrace in Unification. What was wrong with Riker's good-bye? I thought it was fine just the way it was, I think adding Deanna there would have been overkill but maybe it would work. I think there needed to be a scene between Beverly and Jean-Luc in place of the one where he's talking to her on his desk top in spacedock. I would mention at the end in a captain's log entry that B4 has been transferred to the Daystrom Institute and that Dr. Maddox hopes to restore Data's dormant memories. As for Worf being there...that has always bothered me. "I got bored as an ambassador?" works lol. What about Wesley though that was just out of no where. Too bad his scene got deleted too.