Nemesis and Jeri Ryan

[Qonundrum]

Why does it have to be a female character?

Or why they had to do a marriage since it's not only not been Trek's forte but also how the wedding fluff had no part of the actual movie. They could have any old guest aliens, sentient cabbages (since nobody's going to use anthropomorphic carrots), and nobody would care any more or less.

Or was Shinzon going to destroy Earth and then after being victorious there hamper the honeymoon because the Romulans shat on him his entire life? (It's like they tried to make a movie revolving around the ramming scene. Which is a great scene but everything leading to it is far more an uncoordinated mess than many of my posts!)

 

[diankra]

Said it before, it's all the wrong way round. The film opens with Riker moving on by accepting a command and marrying Deanna, rather than doing so as a result of the shock that events (including Data's death) have given him.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Said it before, it's all the wrong way round. The film opens with Riker moving on by accepting a command and marrying Deanna, rather than doing so as a result of the shock that events (including Data's death) have given him.

I can't tell if you're joking or not, but in case you're not, Picard's speech literally says they're going off to the Titan as he has to train his new first officer, Data.

 

[diankra]

In dramatic terms, Riker's decision to move on should be motivated by the events of the film, not happen offscreen between movies.

 

[Takeru]

If she was supposed to replace a major character it was most likely Data. Brent Spiner had already stated before Nemesis that he was ready to move on because his age would prevent him from believably playing Data going forward but at that point there were no plans for Nemesis to be the final TNG movie and Data was popular so it could have made sense for Paramount to replace him with another popular character who is also the smart one who doesn't always get human behavior and can be used for both commentary and comic relief.

Her replacing him wouldn't have meant he wasn't going to be in the movie, Data's role in the movie probably would have been pretty much the same just with Seven staying on the Enterprise taking his place at OPS.

 

[Mage]

Her replacing him wouldn't have meant he wasn't going to be in the movie, Data's role in the movie probably would have been pretty much the same just with Seven staying on the Enterprise taking his place at OPS.

Which would still make no sense. Never during her stay on Voyager did Seven expres any intention to join Starfleet. She flat-out states in the finale that she doesn't know what to do when they'll return home. She does not know these people. Has no emotional connection to anyone. So for her, at the end of the movie, suddenly say that she's going to wear the uniform and take over for a person that died, that she never knew, and serve with people she doesn't care about..... Nope.

 

[Takeru]

Which would still make no sense. Never during her stay on Voyager did Seven expres any intention to join Starfleet. She flat-out states in the finale that she doesn't know what to do when they'll return home. She does not know these people. Has no emotional connection to anyone. So for her, at the end of the movie, suddenly say that she's going to wear the uniform and take over for a person that died, that she never knew, and serve with people she doesn't care about..... Nope.

Yeah, that's why Ryan declined, she said herself she would only agree if it made sense so we can assume it didn't. What I'm saying is that it could have made sense from Paramount's perspective to try and replace Data with Seven because they are quite similar at surface level and Brent Spiner was leaving.

 

[Mage]

Yeah, that's why Ryan declined, she said herself she would only agree if it made sense so we can assume it didn't. What I'm saying is that it could have made sense from Paramount's perspective to try and replace Data with Seven because they are quite similar at surface level and Brent Spiner was leaving.

Hm.... I see what you're saying from their point of view. I disagree and feel that both characters are completely different. The only thing they have in common, is they both are the prerequisite Star Trek 'outsider reflecting on humanity' character. Spock, Odo, Data, Seven, The Doctor, T'Pol.

 

[Takeru]

The only thing they have in common, is they both are the prerequisite Star Trek 'outsider reflecting on humanity' character. Spock, Odo, Data, Seven, The Doctor, T'Pol.

And that right there is one the reasons I'm thinking of Data, the other is the science dialog both had.

I probably wouldn't think Data if we didn't know she was supposed to replace a regular character initially and if Brent Spiner hadn't announced his intent to retire from playing Data, with him saying that it would make sense for Paramount starting to think about a replacement. I also prefer thinking they would plan to replace an actor who was leaving anyway instead of kicking one out to make room for Seven again.

Maybe they wanted to make her the new chief engineer but that would have been even more random than her at OPS.

 

[Mage]

And that right there is one the reasons I'm thinking of Data, the other is the science dialog both had.

I probably wouldn't think Data if we didn't know she was supposed to replace a regular character initially and if Brent Spiner hadn't announced his intent to retire from playing Data, with him saying that it would make sense for Paramount starting to think about a replacement. I also prefer thinking they would plan to replace an actor who was leaving anyway instead of kicking one out to make room for Seven again.

Maybe they wanted to make her the new chief engineer but that would have been even more random than her at OPS.

The thing is, this concept of Star Trek NEEDING some random character to comment on humanity's weirdness is something that's not required. Look at the novels. None of them have a character like that, and it works just bloody fine. They thought it was required because they felt the audience needed it as an exposé on what they were trying to tell in the episode. Thing is, the audience isn't that stupid.

 

[Takeru]

The thing is, this concept of Star Trek NEEDING some random character to comment on humanity's weirdness is something that's not required. Look at the novels. None of them have a character like that, and it works just bloody fine. They thought it was required because they felt the audience needed it as an exposé on what they were trying to tell in the episode. Thing is, the audience isn't that stupid.

I agree but the studio clearly didn't see it that way, most 90s Star Trek had more than one character commenting on humanity, Odo/Quark, The Doctor/Seven (even Neelix sometimes), T'Pol/Phlox all did it. I can see Paramount being worried about losing TNG's sole commenter.

 

[Mage]

I agree but the studio clearly didn't see it that way, most 90s Star Trek had more than one character commenting on humanity, Odo/Quark, The Doctor/Seven (even Neelix sometimes), T'Pol/Phlox all did it. I can see Paramount being worried about losing TNG's sole commenter.

Meh. I see it as an insult to viewers Intelligence and unnecessary exposé. Even if I loved the dynamics between those characters

 

[Qonundrum]

If she was supposed to replace a major character it was most likely Data. Brent Spiner had already stated before Nemesis that he was ready to move on because his age would prevent him from believably playing Data going forward but at that point there were no plans for Nemesis to be the final TNG movie and Data was popular so it could have made sense for Paramount to replace him with another popular character who is also the smart one who doesn't always get human behavior and can be used for both commentary and comic relief.

Her replacing him wouldn't have meant he wasn't going to be in the movie, Data's role in the movie probably would have been pretty much the same just with Seven staying on the Enterprise taking his place at OPS.

By and large agreed. Seven would have been interesting but to do it with tact and making it feel natural and less "small universe syndrome", too much fanservice isn't a good thing either. But even if they brought in someone new and the dialogue or acting didn't sell it, people would then clamor for Seven anyway. Seven is just different enough and the backstory with Picard might have been enough, though...

Yet his death was a complete paint-by-numbers redo of Spock's death complete with supporting crew reading TSFS's script, someone who made the movie (probably script level if not higher) didn't want to take the idea and go full gusto with something dramatically satisfying. Heck, if Shinzon's own subplot had been more believable or less risible, that alone would have helped generate feeling for Data no matter how xeroxed in it was.

Seven coming on board might have been a good shake-up, especially if other crew were to go on other ships - but they just couldn't redo what the 80s TOS movies had done after a certain point. They could get Crusher back to Starfleet central as a teacher, but how to convincingly get her back onto Enterprise? Sulu had his own command and TNG being more ensemble-based it should be easier to have done multiple ships.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Seven coming on board might have been a good shake-up, especially if other crew were to go on other ships - but they just couldn't redo what the 80s TOS movies had done after a certain point.

Had 7 been in Nemesis it'd have been even more of a TWOK thing as shed have basically been the Saavik character

 

[Qonundrum]

Had 7 been in Nemesis it'd have been even more of a TWOK thing as shed have basically been the Saavik character

Good point! And as neither 7 or Data is Vulcan, apart from superficial trope traits, it's all too easy to see how Data would gravitate toward her and ask questions, with her sending a few in return. And they (hopefully) wouldn't have done anything like TUC where Saavik (remade as Valeris) becomes the shocking traitor, moohahahaha. That last bit was inescapable, but TBH the handling of Valeris was largely well done. Saavik would have been more shocking and nobody would have batted an eyelid over her showing up at the door.

If only NEM wasn't so chock loaded with garbage scenes (Never mind YADA: Yet Another Data Android, of which "YADA YADA YADA" now has quite the double meaning in describing that movie... and many of my posts! )


Seriously, the movie was already juggling so many main plot elements:

• Shinzon was a slave
• Shinzon was a clone of Picard in a botched experiment
• Shinzon wants to take over Romulus
• Shinzon convinced enough Remans to somehow build this bestest-ship-ever, one so big and powerful, and nobody noticed - even on neighboring planet Romulus? This one stretches waaaaaaay too much)
  
• Shinzon needs Picard's blood in some contrived cockamemee excuse (since when do clones need constant transfusions, never mind he's been a slave all this time and for a failed Romulan scheme and he no longer looks remotely like Picard so what's the point)
  
• Shinzon wants revenge on all of Earth because of what and only the Romulans did to him)
• Shinzon managed to make the bestest-ship-ever (what, the Romulans had nothing he could use after taking over Romulus?)
  
• Shinzon managed to make the bestest-ship-ever all while being a slave, just don't ask how though an idea could be fathomed
  
• There's a beacon somewhere in the galaxy going off... from another Data prototype
• Let's waste 20 minutes in a dune buggy with bizarrely overexposed lighting because there's simply not enough material so we need to pad this out more than where any script writer has padded out before
  
• Let's cram in making peace with Romulans somehow, rather than just keeping them an enemy - despite their remaining an enemy
• Make Viceroy a real baddie but how quickly and cheaply can this be done...
  
• Kill off Data once and for all because he's aging and nobody will swallow that (for 18 years, anyway)
• Do all this in two hours, it doesn't matter how!
• Let's also give Troi the ability to plant thoughts into others' minds all of a sudden and for no reason
• Let's have her mind-raped, again, for no plot-integral reason
• Chuck in a bottomless pit inside the 1701-E that also has gravity so it's not via a ruptured hull or destroyed hull plating
• Not have Patrick Stewart in a dual role to ensure Shinzon can be fully believed (Tom Hardy's voice is genuinely great but the initial reveal of his visage doesn't quite have the shock value necessary because his face isn't Picard's)
• Marry Troi and RIker so new characters can come in that we won't care about by the next flick because there's no way they're going to get the development time needed in this outing (Even 7 and we knew and loved her story), and the happily married duo can then be shoved to their shiny new ship, since on-again/off-again/on-again yo-yo relationships always end up in happy-ever-after (erm, generally not but it's nice to see the fiction take place on screen, I guess..)

Never mind Guinan, Wesley, and the rest - all there in Gilligan's Starship...

 

[suarezguy]

Shinzon wants revenge on all of Earth because of what and only the Romulans did to him)

A theory/argument some fans of the film make is that Shinzon wasn't against Earth or humans for revenge, he was just targeting Earth to get/keep the support of the Romulan military, that could have been a really interesting different kind of villain and villainy if the film had committed to that idea but it didn't, it instead suggested that he was kinda probably trying to get revenge against humanity for, yes, very unconvincing and uncompelling reasons.

Even if not a much *better* character, Shinzon probably would have been at least 20-30% more entertaining character, maybe a better character also, if he had been played by James Marsters.

 

[Therin of Andor]

A theory/argument some fans of the film make is that Shinzon wasn't against Earth or humans for revenge, he was just targeting Earth to get/keep the support of the Romulan military...

My take was that Shinzon succeeding in defeating Earth would achieve something the Romulans had been trying to do... for centuries.

 

[BillJ]

I tend to think if Ryan had made it into the movie, it would've been as a replacement for LeVar Burton. He's been the weak link since Yar was slimed.