Neil Gaiman: "My Doctor Who experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth"

[The Borgified Corpse]

Well, because of the overall avuncular, sexless vibe that the show had in that era, I just can't picture it, even as a modern retcon. It's that whole Time-Lords-are-above-squishy-human-pleasures thing. And as beautiful as both Romanas were, they never just oozed confident, mature sexuality the way that River did.

 

[Christopher]

Well, because of the overall avuncular, sexless vibe that the show had in that era, I just can't picture it, even as a modern retcon. It's that whole Time-Lords-are-above-squishy-human-pleasures thing.

Well, of course there was a firm "no hanky-panky in the TARDIS" policy at the time, but my opinion about Doctor IV/Romana II is hardly a modern retcon; I've held it for decades. To me, it was always pretty obvious from the episodes themselves, since Tom Baker and Lalla Ward were a couple for a while and made no attempt to hide it in their performances. So I can either go "Look, the actors are being lazy and letting their real-life relationship drama leak into their acting," or I can choose to believe that what we're seeing comes from the characters.

And yes, being above human pleasures is exactly the point. To the Doctor, humans are aliens and children, so it's hard to believe there'd be an attraction. Even if there were, it'd be kind of akin to bestiality from his perspective. It's really pretty species-centric of us to assume that aliens would find us as attractive as we find each other. But with a member of his own species, it's a different matter.

 

[Qonundrum]

Well, because of the overall avuncular, sexless vibe that the show had in that era, I just can't picture it, even as a modern retcon. It's that whole Time-Lords-are-above-squishy-human-pleasures thing. And as beautiful as both Romanas were, they never just oozed confident, mature sexuality the way that River did.

Not above it at all. A show about the vast range of ideas and things, sexuality is surely the least interesting of anything? Even Susan called the Doctor "grandfather", regardless of literal or figurative meaning.

TNG, post season 2, was largely sexless as well since the "evolved humanity" Gene wanted... Geordi wasn't running around telling how oh-so-naughty Corsair was (for one of many examples). TNG didn't waste week after week on hormones because it wasn't an oversexed soap opera either.

So I'd also wager River was sexually immature. So was Jack, being unable to keep it zipped and being quite the stereotype in chasing anyone upright. (before you say it, I'm bi and I do not appreciate stereotypes being used so frivolously.) And real maturity would involve discussing spreading STDs to partners. RTD and Moffat both failed in that regard. But, again, younger kids at best won't understand and it's not fair to the parents who may have different ideas on how to raise their kids than you or me or anyone else.

 

[Qonundrum]

Well, of course there was a firm "no hanky-panky in the TARDIS" policy at the time, but my opinion about Doctor IV/Romana II is hardly a modern retcon; I've held it for decades. To me, it was always pretty obvious from the episodes themselves, since Tom Baker and Lalla Ward were a couple for a while and made no attempt to hide it in their performances. So I can either go "Look, the actors are being lazy and letting their real-life relationship drama leak into their acting," or I can choose to believe that what we're seeing comes from the characters.

And yes, being above human pleasures is exactly the point. To the Doctor, humans are aliens and children, so it's hard to believe there'd be an attraction. Even if there were, it'd be kind of akin to bestiality from his perspective. It's really pretty species-centric of us to assume that aliens would find us as attractive as we find each other. But with a member of his own species, it's a different matter.

In which case, don't watch "State of Decay" because the actors are being very unprofessional, avoiding eye contact and stuff when the script pretty much demands it. It's funny but for all the wrong reasons and it does drag the story down.

And not all individuals of species find other species sex-interesting. But we can always elevate any story featuring Peri, except for the two where nobody treats her as a sex object ("Revelation of the Daleks", "Vengeance on Varos"), as the ultimate example of everything in the universe lusting after-- this is getting to be a bizarre discussion, it's extremely rare in nature to see different species copulating or attempting to. Remember, species is not synonymous with race (which down one in the hierarchical order.)

 

[Kemaiku]

Sexuality is surely the least interesting of anything?

I am shocked that this would be posted on a *check notes* science ficti....oh.

 

[Christopher]

TNG, post season 2, was largely sexless as well since the "evolved humanity" Gene wanted...

Wow, you really misread what Gene Roddenberry wanted. The guy was obsessed with sex. His idea of a future utopia was one where humanity had overcome its sexual hangups and everyone practiced free love without shame. The only TNG season that Roddenberry was actually in any meaningful control over was season 1, and you can see his sensibilities in episodes like "The Naked Now" (where he got to throw in all the uninhibited sexuality he wasn't able to include in "The Naked Time") and "Justice" (where he took a story that was supposed to be about terrorism and rewrote it as a hedonistic sex paradise).

In which case, don't watch "State of Decay" because the actors are being very unprofessional, avoiding eye contact and stuff when the script pretty much demands it. It's funny but for all the wrong reasons and it does drag the story down.

Well, yes, of course that's part of the same pattern I'm talking about, their real-life relationship affecting their onscreen performance. I never said I was talking exclusively about the happy parts of that relationship. I was going to specify that I was talking about the times when their arguments showed up onscreen too, but I decided I didn't need to mention it because it seemed obvious that any relationship will include its ups and downs. Apparently it wasn't.

After all, it's entirely in character that two people as prideful as the Doctor and Romana would have a turbulent romance, that they'd fight and pout and eventually make up and go back to being giddy and silly until something set them off fighting again. The reason I choose to believe the characters' relationship matched the actors' relationship is that it fits their characters so well. It's a plausible extrapolation that adds a nice texture to their episodes.

it's extremely rare in nature to see different species copulating or attempting to.

More common than you think. For one well-known example, dolphins will boink anything that moves.

Remember, species is not synonymous with race (which down one in the hierarchical order.)

"Race" is a largely discredited concept, too deeply grounded in racist ideology and junk science to be meaningful. These days it's preferred to talk about ethnicities or populations. But why are we even talking about it? Obviously the difference between a Gallifreyan and a human is a species difference -- heck, realistically, organisms from different planets wouldn't even be in the same taxonomic domain, let alone kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, or species.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

TNG, post season 2, was largely sexless as well since the "evolved humanity" Gene wanted... Geordi wasn't running around telling how oh-so-naughty Corsair was (for one of many examples). TNG didn't waste week after week on hormones because it wasn't an oversexed soap opera either.

I have no idea how you can claim a show with William T. Riker front and center is in any way sexless... ;-)

As a shameless flirt and a bi dude, I really never minded Jack. As for River, her immaturity is sort of a consequence of her rather atemporal upbringing, more-or-less imprinting on a man from birth, which would fuck anyone up.

As for the Doctor's sexuality and activity... well, it's somewhat strange, mostly unspoken:
Clearly they have had children, which assuming the looms are bunk, would necessitate some... intimate liaisons. Certainly Missy implies there's more to their relationship than just friendship as well.

One does get "engaged" to Cameca in The Aztecs, but seems equal parts interested and "little kid who doesn't know what this is all about" about it. But definitely not sexual.

Slightly touchy subject, but Two and Jamie have certainly been interpreted by some fans as more than friends, what with all the hugging, though certainly extra-canonically.

Three is the first Doctor to show any sort of twinge of romantic feelings when he becomes jealous of Liz's beaux [EDIT: Jo's beau]. Granted, that happens over the course of the single episode and Liz's [EDIT: Jo's] last appearance, but the ending of it the Doctor is very clearly lamenting the "one that got away."

Four is usually considered to be the one with relationships, there's the will they/won't they feeling to him and Sarah Jane, outright "opposites attract" flirtation with Romana I, heavily implied relationship with Romana II and basically a pseudo "Father/Mother/Son" relationship with Romana II & Adric.

Five seems to be disinterested and has a more sibling-esque relationship with his companions. However, Nyssa kinda seems to imply emotional attachment with the Doctor beyond friendship in her final episodes. Big Finish has played this up a little bit as a one-sided crush in the audios where they travel alone together.

Six and Seven are more or less asexual beings across the media, with the exception of Seven in the context of the "Human Nature" novel.

Eight is far more emotional and the first Doctor to smooch on camera. His first novel appearance, in his handsome new body, has him sleep with Benny. (Under the assumption that she always liked the Doctor, but his new appearance made the deal which speaks ill of a rather complex character like Benny.) His audio appearances have him more in the asexual vein, as his feelings for Charley are [EDIT: largely] left unspoken and Charley is basically unrequited.

Nine and Ten are active romancers and kissing and I would say it's silly to assume Ten and Rose never had sex. Eleven returns to the asexual mold, though he tells a lot of stories about hookups with priestesses and movie stars and is clearly sleeping with River sometimes. I do not think he and Amy or he and Clara ever happened, though - unfortunately - not for lack of trying on both their parts.

Twelve's sort of odd. Not many opportunities to meet up with a one-off hookup in his stories, clearly not with Clara. We can assume he was with River at least once in this form. Thirteen so far seems pretty low key.

 

[Christopher]

Three is the first Doctor to show any sort of twinge of romantic feelings when he becomes jealous of Liz's beaux. Granted, that happens over the course of the single episode and Liz's last appearance, but the ending of it the Doctor is very clearly lamenting the "one that got away."

Huh? You must be thinking of Jo's departure in "The Green Death," since Liz had no romantic interest in "Inferno" (let alone more than one -- "beaux" is plural). And I never saw the Doctor's reaction as sexual jealousy -- his relationship with Jo was like a father and daughter, loving but hardly romantic.

Four is usually considered to be the one with relationships, there's the will they/won't they feeling to him and Sarah Jane,

I never got that impression, and I found it bizarre when Russell T. Davies retconned that in when he brought Sarah Jane back. I believe she was simply what the Doctor outright called her, his best friend.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Three is the first Doctor to show any sort of twinge of romantic feelings when he becomes jealous of Liz's beaux. Granted, that happens over the course of the single episode and Liz's last appearance, but the ending of it the Doctor is very clearly lamenting the "one that got away."

I assume you're referring to Jo and her engagement to Clifford Jones in "The Green Death." (We learned practically nothing about Liz's personal life during her 4 story run and the way that the Brigadier describes her offscreen departure in "Terror of the Autons" implies annoyance more than anything else.) As for the 3rd Doctor & Jo, I would argue that his feelings for her never quite hit the threshold of romantic. I think that he enjoyed her exclusive, undivided attention and that they were more than "friends" as we commonly think of but far less than lovers. That's also how I would describe his relationships with Sarah Jane, Amy, & Clara (during Capaldi's era).

That's why I was always annoyed by this exchange from "The Caretaker":
Danny: "Do you love him?"
Clara: "No."
Danny: "Really tired of the lies."
Clara: "Not in that way."
Danny: "What other way is there?"

Is it really so alien to some people, the notion of having strong, loving feelings towards someone that aren't romantic or sexual? Similarly, there was that moment in "The Doctor Falls" when Bill is saying goodbye to the Doctor and says, "You know that I'm only interested in my own gender and in people closer to my own age, right?" My stunned reaction to that baffling non-sequitur was, "Well... 'Fuck you, too,' I guess?..."

Eight is far emotional and the first Doctor to smooch on camera. [...] His audio appearances have him more in the asexual vein, as his feelings for Charley are left unspoken and Charley is basically unrequited.

In "Scherzo," I clearly recall him telling Charley, "Of course I loved you." I seem to recall him saying that multiple times.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

Huh? You must be thinking of Jo's departure in "The Green Death," since Liz had no romantic interest in "Inferno" (let alone more than one -- "beaux" is plural). And I never saw the Doctor's reaction as sexual jealousy -- his relationship with Jo was like a father and daughter, loving but hardly romantic.

I did in fact in mean Jo, not quite sure what happened there. Too many companions! I definitely never really thought of Jo and Three in any form other than friends, but "The Green Death" definitely feels structured like someone realizing their feelings as soon as their friend is "taken." I'm not saying he's necessarily lustful, but his attitude in the episode, and certainly the idea that he's wandering around space-time when we next meet him, untethered from his other friends, feels like someone recovering from missing out on a relationship and not just friends moving apart. (That Jo and Sarah are also essentially treated as the Doctor's "wives" in "The Death of the Doctor" shows that, as you say, RTD thought along the same lines about those relationships.) I was actually surprised when I saw the episode as I knew of the "no hanky panky rule" and it certainly feels more textual than not.

I would also argue that Sarah and Four are certainly flirty at most in the majority of their episodes but, in a similar manner to Jo, there's definitely more than friendship on the line as they talk when Four leaves her behind. (Though "Hand of Fear" is an outright terrible episode.)

As for the 3rd Doctor & Jo, I would argue that his feelings for her never quite hit the threshold of romantic. I think that he enjoyed her exclusive, undivided attention and that they were more than "friends" as we commonly think of but far less than lovers. That's also how I would describe his relationships with Sarah Jane, Amy, & Clara (during Capaldi's era).
...
Is it really so alien to some people, the notion of having strong, loving feelings towards someone that aren't romantic or sexual? Similarly, there was that moment in "The Doctor Falls" when Bill is saying goodbye to the Doctor and says, "You know that I'm only interested in my own gender and in people closer to my own age, right?" My stunned reaction to that baffling non-sequitur was, "Well... 'Fuck you, too,' I guess?..."

I can definitely see your point with Jo and Three, mainly because of how it's played in the majority of their episodes - they're clearly friends, close friends. I just think the way it's played for "The Green Death" feels very different to just losing a friend. I, personally, view Clara-Doctor as something altogether different and wouldn't really wrap it up with how Sarah and Jo work. Oddly enough, I feel like Clara and Capaldi have a similar relationship to Four and Romana I - sort of flirty and contrarian.

I, too, found Bill's line incredibly awkward. I know why it's there from a writer's intent, but it's soooooo not those two characters and so not in that moment.

In "Scherzo," I clearly recall him telling Charley, "Of course I loved you." I seem to recall him saying that multiple times.

Admittedly it's been a long time. But was that undone by the plot? Or did just Charley forget it or something? I certainly know they dance around it quite a bit before and after "Scherzo."

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Admittedly it's been a long time. But was that undone by the plot? Or did just Charley forget it or something? I certainly know they dance around it quite a bit before and after "Scherzo."

It was pretty much dropped after Scherzo, never to be mentioned directly again. One could argue it was subtly referenced in The Girl Who Never Was but that's about it.

 

[Christopher]

I did in fact in mean Jo, not quite sure what happened there. Too many companions! I definitely never really thought of Jo and Three in any form other than friends, but "The Green Death" definitely feels structured like someone realizing their feelings as soon as their friend is "taken." I'm not saying he's necessarily lustful, but his attitude in the episode, and certainly the idea that he's wandering around space-time when we next meet him, untethered from his other friends, feels like someone recovering from missing out on a relationship and not just friends moving apart.

I'm with The Borgified Corpse on this one -- it is simplistic and wrong to assume that all love is sexual. The Doctor obviously loved Jo, yes, very much, but paternally. She was like a daughter who was moving away to get married, leaving him alone. That is more than enough to explain his pain at losing her.

(That Jo and Sarah are also essentially treated as the Doctor's "wives" in "The Death of the Doctor" shows that, as you say, RTD thought along the same lines about those relationships.)

And as I've said, I disagree with him emphatically on that.

I would also argue that Sarah and Four are certainly flirty at most in the majority of their episodes but, in a similar manner to Jo, there's definitely more than friendship on the line as they talk when Four leaves her behind.

Friendship is not a weak or inferior kind of relationship. A friendship can be as deep and meaningful as any romance -- indeed, I would argue that no romance can truly succeed unless its participants are also true friends.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

^ I actually don't disagree with your, or Borgified's, points. I think we're just interpreting a few very small things differently in these two specific cases. I'm actually surprised these two are the ones folk responded to - I was certain the winking nod for Two/Jamie was sure to be the flashpoint. They've always seemed to be "givens" - with some hearty disagreement - in the Whovian circles I've run in.

I just did a quick search to rewatch the closing of "The Green Death" and there was something curious that came along with the results. It seems that Mark Gatiss wrote the final moments of SHERLOCK's "The Sign of Three" to mirror the closing of "The Green Death." Notably, Sherlock and Molly - a woman with whom he has a professional friendship but realizes once she's with someone else that he may have feelings for her - sharing a look as he leaves the reception early.

 

[Christopher]

I actually don't disagree with your, or Borgified's, points. I think we're just interpreting a few very small things differently in these two specific cases.

That's basically the point -- the different ways that a single set of evidence can be interpreted. Too many people look at deep affection between characters of opposite sexes (or sometimes the same sex) and default to the interpretation that it's romantic/sexual. I'm saying that isn't the only possibility, that there are other forms of love that are too often ignored.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

II, too, found Bill's line incredibly awkward. I know why it's there from a writer's intent, but it's soooooo not those two characters and so not in that moment.

What WAS Moffat's intent with that line? I generally love Moffat's writing but sometimes I have no idea what he's on about.

My other big point of confusion was in "Let's Kill Hitler" when the Amelia hologram tells the Doctor "Fish fingers & custard" and that somehow equates to dressing up in a tuxedo and hoping that River will somehow unpoison him. Huh?

Admittedly it's been a long time. But was that undone by the plot? Or did just Charley forget it or something? I certainly know they dance around it quite a bit before and after "Scherzo."

I haven't listened to many audios after "The Natural History of Fear," so I really couldn't say. But the Doctor professing his love is one of my deep, abiding memories of "Scherzo."

I was certain the winking nod for Two/Jamie was sure to be the flashpoint.

Much like the Kirk/Spock and Frodo/Aragorn slashers, I just don't feed them and hope that they go away.

 

[Christopher]

My other big point of confusion was in "Let's Kill Hitler" when the Amelia hologram tells the Doctor "Fish fingers & custard" and that somehow equates to dressing up in a tuxedo and hoping that River will somehow unpoison him. Huh?

I think it meant that Amy was the one who could reach River and convince her to save the Doctor. The image of Amelia was reminding the Doctor of when they first met.

 

[YLu]

What WAS Moffat's intent with that line? I generally love Moffat's writing but sometimes I have no idea what he's on about.

The point of that scene is that has no romantic feelings towards him. She’s pulling his leg to briefly make him worry she does, because in stories when someone begins a sentence with “You know how...?” it usually means they’re about to confess they’ve been obscuring the truth. But instead of doing that, she follows with “Just checking,” -confirming- the truth of her earlier statement. She’s briefly playing a joke on him, like friends do with each other. The point of the scene is two friends behaving like friends, right before the end.

For a less warm and fuzzy version of the same kind of exchange, think of those scenes in movies where someone says “You know all those terrible things I said to you?” And then the audience expects them to say some kind of contrition but instead they go, “I meant every word”? It’s like that.

 

[DS9Continuing]

The point of that scene is that has no romantic feelings towards him. She’s pulling his leg to briefly make him worry she does, because in stories when someone begins a sentence with “You know how...?” it usually means they’re about to confess they’ve been obscuring the truth. But instead of doing that, she follows with “Just checking,” -confirming- the truth of her earlier statement. She’s briefly playing a joke on him, like friends do with each other. The point of the scene is two friends behaving like friends, right before the end.

For a less warm and fuzzy version of the same kind of exchange, think of those scenes in movies where someone says “You know all those terrible things I said to you?” And then the audience expects them to say some kind of contrition but instead they go, “I meant every word”? It’s like that.

I'll buy that. Bill was a very genre-savvy character, often making comparisons to other sci-fi properties and aware of how these things usually work, so I could see her employing that trope for some gallows humour.

I also thought it was of a piece with all the "is the future all-girl?" lines - basically a way to have "young woman" on the Doctor's mind just before he regenerates, thus subconsciously influencing who he regenerates into.

.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Nine and Ten are active romancers and kissing and I would say it's silly to assume Ten and Rose never had sex. Eleven returns to the asexual mold, though he tells a lot of stories about hookups with priestesses and movie stars and is clearly sleeping with River sometimes. I do not think he and Amy or he and Clara ever happened, though - unfortunately - not for lack of trying on both their parts.

Thank you for giving me nightmares........ Nine and Rose having sex. That's the stuff of nightmares.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

Thank you for giving me nightmares........ Nine and Rose having sex. That's the stuff of nightmares.

Oh, you didn't think they were actually talking about dancing in The Doctor Dances, did you? ;-)