Negh'var - what type of warship is it?

[Timo]

The one confusing issue here is the choice of combat range. If torpedoes were decisive weapons in the battle, why weren't they fired from five AUs away? The phasers of the station would probably have been weakened a lot by the distance (since such a weakening effect is just about the only rational explanation for the usual choice of point-blank fighting ranges), and the torpedoes of the station would have had significantly more difficulty hitting an enemy fleet scattered on a sphere with 5 AU radius than on a gaggle that closed in to 50 meters!

I loved the attention to detail in the battle, though. Having the D-7 fire red beams yelled "verisimilitude" rather than "continuity breach" to me: antiquated ships like that would probably indeed be relegated to a "support" role, carrying specialized siege weapons and offloading nonessential gear such as space combat weapons. And there was an impression of "tactics" in the D-7s with their red beams attacking in a dedicated wave.

The exclusively bow-mounted siege weapons would mean that once the wave overshot the target, it would become rather impotent and would have to fly around for another pass - a plausible reason for having the "overflight" scene where the Klingons aren't firing, and also an excellent time to hit their bellies with torpedoes.

Also, the D-7 isn't that much bigger than the BoP, so the ability to withstand more shots (or at least die more prolonged deaths) would seem to be down to better shielding rather than greater bulk. We can thus counterintuitively deduce that shielding is like classic naval armor after all: if you want lots of it, you have to pay a penalty of some sort (even though probably in power costs rather than weight), which is why the BoP remains weakly shielded while the D-7 does not.

Interestingly, torpedoes were extremely rarely used in the Dominion War. Again, shielding might be the issue: Jem'Hadar ships might be virtually immune to those, even if their ships aren't any "stronger" than the Alpha average in general. Dialogue supports the idea that shielding is selective, and that the phased polaron beam might be best blocked by a shield type that also stops classic phasers and disruptors (so the Cardassians don't get free shots against the Klingons) but is unusually vulnerable to kinetic attack (so the Jem'Hadar can ram).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[siskokid888]

... The 23rd century definition might be completely different - say, "Battle Cruiser" might be the only type of cruiser with sufficiently heavy shielding for sustained combat, while ships like Kirk's will fold like a paper bag if engaged by multiple enemies for an extended period of time.

Although in Trek 3, when the Enterprise enters the system, the crewman on the cloaked bird of prey identifies her as a "Federation Battle Crusier".

 

[Timo]

Since Klingons tend to think their own battle cruisers can't challenge Kirk except when operating in threes, or if assisted by sabotage or other underhanded tricks, their definition of "armor/shielding sufficient for sustained combat" might in fact be more modest than the Starfleet one. That is, a Starfleet cruiser would be a battle cruiser to Klingons!

Starfleet in turn might define battle cruiser in terms of armament, and might feel that a D-7 outguns a Constitution sufficiently to warrant a different designation, even though the weak shields of the Klingon ship make her less of a performer. That'd return the definition to its WWI roots.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cwl]

Possible but unlikely.
There was no bleed-through effect shown at all.
There were no SHIELDS shown around the shield generators, period (then again, the fight scene between the DS9 and Klingons didn't show shield effects around the station AT ALL).

Ds9 had a penchant for ignoring shield FX in fleet battle scenes - but that was more or less understandable.
I just don't buy 1 hit and 2 shield generators go out.
Give me a break.

the Scimitar was able to knock the USS Enterprise-E out of warp with one hit. A powerful enough shot in the right area can cause a LOT of bleed through damage.

You might not see the bleed through damage on the Bridge or OPS but that doesn't mean the damage isn't being caused to other areas of the ship/station.

 

[Timo]

Knocking a shielded ship out of warp might not be that much of an achievement: the weapons might only need to hit the warp field, and that would create feedback that would damage the warp drive enough to knock it out of action at least for a brief while - even when there was minimal damage to the ship itself.

Indeed, it seems pretty easy to force ships out of warp on basis of actual cases. Reynolds forces Sisko out of warp with a few shots in "Behind the Lines", and Janeway and Ransom similarly seem to have very little difficulty denying warp from each other in "Equinox". Hell, even the invincible Borg were somehow stopped at Wolf 359!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

Actual he's way wrong.
Scimitar didn't do anything with one hit. Enterprise was barraged out of warp. A single hit after the shield went down disable the engines.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I think conversation states that they took out warp with the first hit.

 

[F. King Daniel]

"First hit" could mean "first volley"

 

[Deks]

I think conversation states that they took out warp with the first hit.

'He disabled our engines with a first shot'- I think that's how Geordi stated it (I could be wrong though).

However, this can also be depicted that the first volley was enough to knock out the warp engines - remember that people also misread the use of a term 'scotty, you've earned your pay for the week' as Kirk meaning that Scotty is actually being paid.

In the absence of money for humans and Federation in Trek, it's VERY easy to see such a comment as nothing more than pep talk (which is often used even TODAY when someone wants to say 'good job').

Furthermore, the Scimitar was firing a whole volley of pulses at the Enterprise (which were probably targeting specific areas of the ship to disrupt Warp engines - a highly efficient tactic in Trek battles - targeting subsystems).
And since shields are known to allow bleed-through effect, multiple issues would probably arise when sub-systems are specifically targeted.

 

[T'Girl]

I think conversation states that they took out warp with the first hit.

LaForge: "He hit our warp drive with his first shot."

The first shot and hit we see is on the dorsal portion of the secondary hull, followed by a hit to the forward section of the port nacelle. When we then see the warp core, it's in the process of shutting down. The Enterprise only drops out of warp after several hits and Shinzon has shifted his fire to the Enterprise's weapons systems and shields. So the first hit alone isn't apparently what knock the ship out of warp.

So, the ship taking several hit before dropping sublight, just like Scotty being paid, is what is actually happening.

The first shot we see in Shinzon's viewscreen, could have been the same one we see Picard and Data reacting to in astrometrics, even through they're shown separately (by seconds) in the movie.

 

[Saquist]

The dialogue doesn't sync well but the core isn't shutting down in that seen. That was just the shield around it unwrapping or something.
Later in the film they actually state that mainpower is off line only after the collision with the Scimitar.