Neelix & Kes A Waste?

[Jetfire]

By the end of the series neither one of the characters were useful...Kes gone by S4 and Neelix...I mean really what was the point? I don't blame the actors but the writers and the whole idea of 2 characters representing the Delta Quadrant was nothing. I think Ethan Phillips & Jennifer Lien are great actors but their characters just go no where. What if VOY found 2 familiar species to them at the Caretaker's array?

Like a Cardassian played by Ethan Phillips and a Romulan played by Jennifer Lien...I think the whole Ocampan and Kazon mess could have played out the same and Janeway destroying the array with a couple of throw away characters like Neelix & Kes...obviously played by different actors and at the end of the pilot just go away but then Janeway is left with 2 more interesting characters. I also think things with Seska could have played out with the Cardassian played by Ethan Phillips choosing to side with the VOY crew instead of assisting her in whatever plans she had.

If need be to bring in Seven Of Nine...Harry Kim would go instead of the Romulan character played by Jennifer Lien. All of this is a big "what if"...but I never felt like Neelix and Kes contributed enough to justify their characters being on Voyager...Neelix was useless once they got past space he was familiar with and I really didn't care for him at all in the first 3 seasons...I enjoyed the interaction with Neelix and Seven later in the series...but Neelix is really a nothing character right out of the gate...Kes was never that interesting to me at all...even though Jennifer Lien did the best with what they gave her.

I realize this is gonna open up a can of worms. It is something I have wondered about for a while.

[edit]

I should also say I see the male Cardassian as played by Ethan Phillips being slippery but also looking at the opportunity of being so far from home as a second chance to build a better life among the VOY crew...he of course is always looking over his shoulder and reluctant to trust people but also would offer wisdom and sound advice...maybe having some of the better qualities of the Neelix character in time.

I see the female Romulan as played by Jennifer Lien being a constant headache for Janeway, very devious but also coming through for the crew when it counts...not to say she doesn't have her own agenda but she would eventually earn alot of peoples trust...she also would be the ultimate outcast and always see herself as being alone...which could play into alot of emotional moments.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I dunno if they're characters were a waste. Neelix certainly had a reason to stay aboard the ship as long as did, he was literally their guide. Then he became apart of their crew, he also served as Kes's guide and mentor as well, and again the same role for Naomi Wildman (whose mom was never around for some reason ) I dunno I have a small fondness for both characters. What I never got, was their romantic relationship. I liked the alternate reality episode where Tom and Kes got married (except for the part where Harry waited for their GRANDDAUGHTER to marry him).

 

[exodus]

I guess if you don't understand how the job Neelix as a cook is saving the ship energy by not using replicators or how his party's are a form of stress relief that saves holodeck energy, then I can see how one would find him useless. However, Neelix was far from useless. Thanks to Neelix, the ship now has the energy in it's replicators to use for more important things like repairs & building the Delta Flyer. Neelix was also a great sounding board for Janeway, Tuvok & Be'Lanna. They often solved many issues by bouncing ideas off of him because of him being the only one with a unique perspective. Neelix also taught Tuvok to be more less stricked and far more tolerant a person.

Kes had potential but I think her downfall was the fact that coming onboard Voyager, she didn't have any real skills that could make her a real asset. Making her a nurse was a bad choice for character. It limited her.

 

[Markira]

I guess if you don't understand how the job Neelix as a cook is saving the ship energy by not using replicators or how his party's are a form of stress relief that saves holodeck energy, then I can see how one would find him useless. However, Neelix was far from useless. Thanks to Neelix, the ship now has the energy in it's replicators to use for more important things like repairs & building the Delta Flyer. Neelix was also a great sounding board for Janeway, Tuvok & Be'Lanna. They often solved many issues by bouncing ideas off of him because of him being the only one with a unique perspective. Neelix also taught Tuvok to be more less stricked and far more tolerant a person.

Kes had potential but I think her downfall was the fact that coming onboard Voyager, she didn't have any real skills that could make her a real asset. Making her a nurse was a bad choice for character. It limited her.

I agree with what you said about Neelix. I think he did serve a specific function with his "morale officer" duties. Although I draw the line at the "ambassador" title; I wouldn't necessarily have him representing Voyager to foreign dignitaries.

I liked Kes being a nurse, though...I appreciated how her bedside manner was a nice contrast to the Doctor's abrasiveness early on in the season, as he learned to socially function around the crew.

 

[DS9]

I don't think Neelix was a waste at all and in fact. next to Tuvok, he is my favorite character on the show. To me, he was kind of like what Quark was to DS9, sort of a little softer comedic breath of fresh air away from the otherwise seriousness of the rest of the show. I don't think they ever really intended to make Neelix have that big of an impact in the show like some of the other characters did. I thought what they did with him was perfect.

As far as Kes goes, the writers saw in her a sort of useless character and that is why they got rid of her. I think Kes had a lot of potential if only they would write better for her character and give her a different role she would have been better. The writers coming to the decision of firing Jennifer Lien was their fault because they didn't create a very good character.

I don't think having Ethan Philipps as a Cardassian would have been possible. DS9 already had 2 sort of main characters as Cardassians in Garak and Gul Dukat so I think that the writers wanted to try and stray from that and create their own alien character of Neelix.

 

[exodus]

I guess if you don't understand how the job Neelix as a cook is saving the ship energy by not using replicators or how his party's are a form of stress relief that saves holodeck energy, then I can see how one would find him useless. However, Neelix was far from useless. Thanks to Neelix, the ship now has the energy in it's replicators to use for more important things like repairs & building the Delta Flyer. Neelix was also a great sounding board for Janeway, Tuvok & Be'Lanna. They often solved many issues by bouncing ideas off of him because of him being the only one with a unique perspective. Neelix also taught Tuvok to be more less stricked and far more tolerant a person.

Kes had potential but I think her downfall was the fact that coming onboard Voyager, she didn't have any real skills that could make her a real asset. Making her a nurse was a bad choice for character. It limited her.

I agree with what you said about Neelix. I think he did serve a specific function with his "morale officer" duties. Although I draw the line at the "ambassador" title; I wouldn't necessarily have him representing Voyager to foreign dignitaries.

I get the "Ambassador" title for Neelix to represent Voyager in the DQ.
Neelix is a native, Voyager are foreigners.
As we saw, nobody in the DQ deals with foreigners because of the quaderants hostile cultures. Trade talks and allies can be made through him due to him being a familair and mostly non-threatening species. The fact that Neelix is humble and bumbling, heads of governments would never believe Voyager to be hostile if someone like him is a representitive. It's kinda a reverse psychology tactic.

Janeway is a very clever woman.

 

[Kes_Ocampa]

hi every one


well i kinda agree with you, but gettin rid of Kes was a Very BAD idear. Seven was no more interestin than Tuvok (the most anoyin character there was on Voyager.)

if tptb had to get rid of someone then get rid of :
either

Chakotay or
Kim or
Paris or
Tuvok.

None of them i really liked, all of which i just wanna shut them up whan they talk.


Kes_Ocampa

 

[JoeZhang]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the big problem with the two is that the Neelix "look" and his outfits make him look like a sweaty nonce hitting on a school girl everytime those two characters interacted.

He's that guy who you can't point at anything specific but he gives you the creeps and you are certain he's stealing panties off washing lines.

 

[DonIago]

I think one problem with "Ambassador" Neelix was that he was rarely actually used in that capacity. Was there ever an episode where Voyager got along with a DQ species specifically because of Neelix's presence? I certainly can't recall any instance where Janeway recommended that Neelix make the initial contact with a race they were encountering, though in some ways that might have made more sense.

Neelix and Mayweather from ENT seem to share some similarity, in that both were supposedly the experts on their respective regions, but were rarely utilized in said capacity.

 

[BlobVanDam]

I think one problem with "Ambassador" Neelix was that he was rarely actually used in that capacity. Was there ever an episode where Voyager got along with a DQ species specifically because of Neelix's presence? I certainly can't recall any instance where Janeway recommended that Neelix make the initial contact with a race they were encountering, though in some ways that might have made more sense.

I'd have to check back, but since I watched the entire series quite recently, I recall several instances where Neelix was ambassador to a planet, or gave them knowledge or helped them with trading. It was of course mainly in the earlier seasons where he was still in familiar space, but I do recall him being of help in that regard enough to justify him being called an ambassador.

 

[exodus]

I think one problem with "Ambassador" Neelix was that he was rarely actually used in that capacity. Was there ever an episode where Voyager got along with a DQ species specifically because of Neelix's presence?

The Kottoti-"Macrocosm".
Janeway had made a jesture that deeply offended them.
Neelix having a full grasp of the langauge, not only saved Janeway but became the only one they'd establish a dialog for trade with.
The Monk-"Someone to Watch Over Me"
Trade negotations due to being a native of the quaderent in "Resistance".
Trade negotitaions in "Alice".

 

[DonIago]

I'm willing to stand corrected.

 

[exodus]

I'm willing to stand corrected.

It's ok, you can sit.

...but seriously, they were very subtle in showing exactly what Neelix does & how he's useful.
You've really got pay attention to the small talk on Voyager to figure some stuff out.
So it's not very surprising that so many don't understand how he's useful.

 

[DonIago]

...probably doesn't help that I don't think I've seen the show since its original airing either.

 

[exodus]

...probably doesn't help that I don't think I've seen the show since its original airing either.

Hmmmmmm, that might be a factor.

 

[Markira]

I'm willing to stand corrected.

It's ok, you can sit.

...but seriously, they were very subtle in showing exactly what Neelix does & how he's useful.
You've really got pay attention to the small talk on Voyager to figure some stuff out.
So it's not very surprising that so many don't understand how he's useful.

It's true, come to think of it. Like I said, I like Neelix and think he's useful in many regards, but I guess I never fully trust him not to mess something up. Unfair of me, really.

 

[JB2005]

They kept Neelix in case they ever ran out of Emergency Rations, that's why his station was the kitchen...

This is a guy who:

> Claiming he knew where a planet was that had lots of Dilithium, took Voyager to a planet with no dilithium, lost his lungs and brought Voyager to the attention of a race desperate to harvest the crew's organs...

> Attempted to make cheese and nearly destroyed the ship

> Claimed he had survival skills and got a man killed

> Tried to get a map by taking part in a drug deal

> Found out there was no afterlife and so tried to kill himself

> Was racist against Vulcans every chance he got "what do you mean Vulcan's don't show emotions? Well I disagree with your society's point of view and think mine is better.

etc etc

Kes on the other hand...eh she was alright. Would have been an interesting twist if they'd killed Harry and she'd replaced him at Ops...

 

[Lynx]

Neelix and Kes were definitely not a waste!

Kes saved the ship on at least two occasions, she saved The Doctor from being restarted and losing all his memory, she persuaded Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay in "Resolutions" when everybody had given up of them and she also came up with the brilliant idea of growing their own food. Besides that, she helped The Doctor in sickbay and was helpful in many ways with her nice and friendly attitude.

Neelix was an useful guide during the firts years of their journey through the Delta Quadrant. He helped them to find food and spare parts for the ship, due to his contacts among other species. He was also the cook and he did all he could to be helpful and cheer them up if necessary.

In fact, Kes and Neelix contributed a lot and the ship would never had got out of Kazon and Vidiian space without Kes and Neelix.

As for having Cardassians and Romulans instead, well Voyager was supposed to be about a ship lost in the Delta Quadrant, not a re-run of TOS, TNG or DS9, therefore it was important to have new species involved. I don't think a Cardassian or Romulan would have added anything to the show. Not to mention that there actually was a Cardassian on the ship for a while, Seska who they unfortunately got rid of in season 3.

 

[The Overlord]

I guess if you don't understand how the job Neelix as a cook is saving the ship energy by not using replicators or how his party's are a form of stress relief that saves holodeck energy, then I can see how one would find him useless. However, Neelix was far from useless. Thanks to Neelix, the ship now has the energy in it's replicators to use for more important things like repairs & building the Delta Flyer. Neelix was also a great sounding board for Janeway, Tuvok & Be'Lanna. They often solved many issues by bouncing ideas off of him because of him being the only one with a unique perspective. Neelix also taught Tuvok to be more less stricked and far more tolerant a person.

Kes had potential but I think her downfall was the fact that coming onboard Voyager, she didn't have any real skills that could make her a real asset. Making her a nurse was a bad choice for character. It limited her.

Neelix also did things like almost destroy Voyager with cheese and get Ensign Hogan killed due to his massive incompetence. Not to mention there was a whole episode where he acted like a jealous psycho. Frankly there were other ways to save energy, like find a way to transfer the Holodeck's power to the other systems of the ship and get rid of this liability. Neelix does something stupid in almost every episode he is in.

Here is Neelix acting like a fool for a whole episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PEcPu4Zn2w&feature=channel_video_title

Neelix and Kes were definitely not a waste!

Kes saved the ship on at least two occasions, she saved The Doctor from being restarted and losing all his memory, she persuaded Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay in "Resolutions" when everybody had given up of them and she also came up with the brilliant idea of growing their own food. Besides that, she helped The Doctor in sickbay and was helpful in many ways with her nice and friendly attitude.

Neelix was an useful guide during the firts years of their journey through the Delta Quadrant. He helped them to find food and spare parts for the ship, due to his contacts among other species. He was also the cook and he did all he could to be helpful and cheer them up if necessary.

In fact, Kes and Neelix contributed a lot and the ship would never had got out of Kazon and Vidiian space without Kes and Neelix.

As for having Cardassians and Romulans instead, well Voyager was supposed to be about a ship lost in the Delta Quadrant, not a re-run of TOS, TNG or DS9, therefore it was important to have new species involved. I don't think a Cardassian or Romulan would have added anything to the show. Not to mention that there actually was a Cardassian on the ship for a while, Seska who they unfortunately got rid of in season 3.

How did Neelix nearly destroying Voyager with cheese, getting Ensign Hogan killed and acting like a jealous psycho help Voyager get through the DQ?

 

[Lynx]

^^
Well, I have to agree about the events in "Parturition". Kes should have dumped him there and then instead of later on.

I can also see your point when it comes to Hogan's death and about the cheese thing.

Or to quote one of my beloved Voyager books (can't remember exactly which one right now): Neelix helped them half of the time and got them into trouble the other half.

However, he did contribute a lot too because of a certain knowledge f the Quadrant and by making trades with species Janeway and the others didn't know about.

I guess I do have a soft spot for Neelix due to the evenmts in "Jetrel".

Not to mention the interaction between him and Tuvok which was hilarious some of the time.