Nation's of Earth in the 23rd & 24th Centuries

[T'Girl]

Multiple state governments are inherently inefficient. Eventually there will become larger, regional sub-governments within the USA.

^Actually, in the U.S., we hear alot of talk about breaking some bigger states up. There is virtually no talk of merging states.

In my home state of Washington there is occasional talk of splitting the state in two at the cascade mountains. When it was first incorporated into the country, Texas was given the future right to split into four states, instead of two federal Senators the Texans would then have eight. A few years back there was exploration of making a new state out of northern California and southern Oregon, to separate those peoples from their more politically liberal fellow citizens.

If you look into it, the smaller states, fiscally, tend to be the more efficiently run. Certainly in comparison to their giant brother states (yes the small have some problems too, just less).

 

[sojourner]

^Yep, we Floridians often talk of letting the Florida panhandle go it's own way along with talks of splitting the state into three.

 

[KJbushway]

United States would perfer to have more terriotries like guam.

Just the opposite really, twice in 1986 and again in 1994, the United States granted sovereignty to one of her Pacific ocean territories, creating three brand new counties. And while the ultimate destiny of Puerto Rico is hard to say, it not impossible that she too will one day will gain her independents and sovereignty.

So instead of a 23rd century with a Earth which holds a single "country, I think that we would see as many as a thousand counties on Earth, "a homeland for every soul." I would like to think that still more countries would exist off-world by then, on planets and moons, asteroids and orbital colonies.

Ok I can see there being a thousand countries. However, countries like japan and small islands can't live off themselves and have a sizeable people without outside help.
Since not everyone is for working together I see power countries taking over small nations and the world having super-powers instead of thousands of nations.

 

[KJbushway]

The only thing stopping the united states from adding more states is that no-one can think of another flag design.

Erm, no.

The United States Army Institute of Heraldry has designed versions of the flag with up to 56 stars in the event that the 6 non-state territories (the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the United States Virgin Islands, and the Northern Mariana Islands) later become states.

My avatar is their proposal for a 51-star flag, which I adopted in protest of the fact that the District of Columbia is denied equal representation in Congress and equal autonomy as the states, even though it has more residents than the State of Wyoming.

The flag thing was a joke, but I still stand corrected for the territories.

 

[T'Girl]

Since not everyone is for working together I see power countries taking over small nations and the world having super-powers instead of thousands of nations.

Isn't a one government world kind of the same thing? A single big monolithic superpower. My God, in the 24th century the Earth is run from France.

oh the horror.

 

[Sci]

Since not everyone is for working together I see power countries taking over small nations and the world having super-powers instead of thousands of nations.

Isn't a one government world kind of the same thing? A single big monolithic superpower.

Eh. I mean, that implies that the U.E. government is actually one particular subset of the Earth whose power has grown to dominate others -- an empire, in short. Whereas if it's a system that practices genuine federalism, then no one country could ever really dominate the United Earth government -- there would just be too many other countries all vying for influence within the government, the same way no one particular state can be said to dominate the United States.

My God, in the 24th century the Earth is run from France.

oh the horror.

Naaaah. In the 24th Century, the Federation is run from France. We have no idea where United Earth has its capital.

 

[Myasishchev]

^No doubt Babylon!

 

[Sci]

^No doubt Babylon!

For what it's worth, the novel Starfleet: Year One (which was published before ENT aired) has the President of United Earth working out of an office in San Francisco, and the ENT novel The Good That Men Do features the Prime Minister of United Earth working out of an office in San Francisco, so there's the implication that good ol' Frisco is the United Earth capital.

On the other hand, the next ENT novel, The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing, features the Prime Minister holding a meeting in an office in Paris at the Place de la Concorde, so...

 

[Deckerd]

countries like japan and small islands can't live off themselves and have a sizeable people without outside help.

Where on Earth did you get that idea? The first question of any nation is can it feed itself? Big islands like Japan and the British Isles are very good indeed at being self-sufficient as regards food. That's why they're so hard to 'take over': blockading them doesn't work. They're also resource rich, which means they can, if pushed, do their own construction too. Granted the UK's construction base was destroyed in the 80s and 90s but the resources are still there.

 

[iguana_tonante]

And two little comments: the name of the "Soviet Reich Empire" is quite redundant (translating to "Workers' Council Realm Empire"), and their flag is, well, terrible.

I like the flag

I find it a bit "busy" with the many differently coloured bands, and the emblem in the middle strikes me as almost meaning-less: why should a Nazi-Soviet amalgam adopt a Triskelion and a vague bird-shape as an emblem? But that's just my nitpicky self.

Yeah, that's how I always saw it. I have no problem identifying myself in a "concentric" way as a dweller of my city, a resident of my own Region, an Italian citizen, and an EU citizen. Applying some other citizenship as an United Earth resident and a UFP citizen sounds perfectly natural to me.

Sucks for anyone hopeful of a more centralized EU.

I don't see it as a conflict, really. Actually, I'm a strong supporter of the European Union, for both economical and political reasons. I recognize there is some democracy deficit in how the EU is governed nowadays, but I still see it as the best path for the future of the European nations. Many people I know (me included) feel they have more in common with fellow Europeans of the same generation than with people of their own nation from a completely different social background.

 

[T'Girl]

^^^ Places like Japan and Britain don't so much require outside help, as they need to engage in outside trade. However if total cut off from trade for some reason, Britain could likely feed herself internally, with a degree of difficulty. Likely the Brits would have to go without certain luxury foods (sugar for one) and might even have to to switch to a mostly vegetarian diet (Beef, Sheep and Dairy use up a lot of grazing land), however there would be food.

.

 

[KJbushway]

countries like japan and small islands can't live off themselves and have a sizeable people without outside help.

Where on Earth did you get that idea? The first question of any nation is can it feed itself? Big islands like Japan and the British Isles are very good indeed at being self-sufficient as regards food. That's why they're so hard to 'take over': blockading them doesn't work. They're also resource rich, which means they can, if pushed, do their own construction too. Granted the UK's construction base was destroyed in the 80s and 90s but the resources are still there.

Actually if you look at ww2, you can see that japan didn't have enough resources to build the empire they wanted so they conquered other islands and some of china to get its natural resources. While they can grow rice and fish at there shores, Japan today would not be able to withstand a blockade, they would eventually run out. So Japan arguement is valid. You got me on the British Isles, I honestly I dont know anything about them.

 

[sojourner]

^You're confusing subsistence with expansion. Japan could very easily sustain itself. Could it mount a wartime economy on it's own resources? no.

 

[The Comedian]

Since not everyone is for working together I see power countries taking over small nations and the world having super-powers instead of thousands of nations.

Isn't a one government world kind of the same thing? A single big monolithic superpower. My God, in the 24th century the Earth is run from France.

oh the horror.

And the military high command is headquartered in San Francisco.

 

[KJbushway]

^You're confusing subsistence with expansion. Japan could very easily sustain itself. Could it mount a wartime economy on it's own resources? no.

Funny thing is while I am writing this I am watching the new season of house.

Japan is a small island, it is currently over-crowed. My response to her was that it could not withstand a blockade. It simple doesn't have the natural resources to feed all the people.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24818-overpopulation This shows that Japan survives on its import and export to sustain the population it has.
http://www.pregnantpause.org/overpop/gnp.htm Go to it, it just states the japan is one of the most over-crowed places in the world, just scroll down to the Thing that has Japan listed first.

But I dont know anything about british isles, so I may be wrong about that.

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

Currently, that may indeed be the case, but I suspect that it's the case for the vast majority of nations on Earth that they're not longer individually sustainable if suddenly isolated. That isn't to say that said nations couldn't come to some measure of equilibrium given a few years to adapt to the sudden lack of incoming resources.

I'm one, as well, for the idea that any world government is going to come as the result of alliances, unions and commonwealths between nations--adding another layer of governmental abstraction instead of subsuming that which existed before--than just one monolithic society or some fantasy world where *insert favored nation here* beats everyone into submission in some imperialistic fantasy planet.

This holds especially true for something like the Federation. What glimpses we have of the inner workings of the Federation government are that the individual planets are there by choice. They aren't compelled or coerced into being part of it. It's just in their best interests to be in it. The Federation doesn't seem to conduct itself in an expansionist way that the various 'Empires' do, using their assorted militaries to forcibly acquire territory and spend even more to keep it subjugated. In the ST world, this philosophy seems to be the right one, as it seems somewhat implied that the Klingons, Romulans, and the Cardassians, even in their heydays, couldn't stand toe to toe with the Federation, quite possibly because too many of their internal resources were expended on maintaining their own internal dominion of subjugated races and planets, while the Federation could focus the entirety of their efforts on improvement and expansion... a little utopian and possibly naive from a narrative standpoint, yes, but in that world, it seems to work.

I imagine that a similar effect will eventually necessitate a future World Government. It's advantageous for countries and nations to work together to do that which would be prohibitively expensive, redundant, or impossible for individual nations to do, especially for endeavors that would have a global impact. As a result, other nations will join in, especially if said alliances manage to weather adversity and hardships in a way that benefits its members overall.

Even in the 24th century, it seems that individual nations still exist. Picard is from France, Riker is from Alaska, Kirk was from Iowa, Worf was raised in Russia (the Ukraine, more specifically, I think), etc. They didn't say that they were simply from Earth. Obviously they felt their nations of origin were important and distinct enough to use as personal identifiers, as well as implying that said areas still retained their own distinct and viable cultures. Yeah, government extends beyond the national level, but that doesn't mean that nations don't exist, just as the existence of the US national government doesn't obviate the existence of individual states or counties or that the EU doesn't eliminate the existence of its member nations or their own subgovernments. It just means that they're adding an additional level or government to maintain the shared transnational and potentially global infrastructure required to continue our economic and technological progression.

 

[T'Girl]

The Federation doesn't seem to conduct itself in an expansionist way ...

Excuse me? The Federation fought a mult-year territorial war with the Cardassians for a hunk of star systems on the Federation's expanding frontier, the Federation ended up fighting the Dominion because the Federation tried to expand into the Gamma quadrant.

it could not withstand a blockade

You might be confusing what a nation has to import verses what it chooses to import. Japan possesses vast national forests and parks. My home state of Washington exports large amounts of wood products (paper, etc.), lumber and trees to Japan, yes trees, Japan imports entire intact trees across the Pacific Ocean. Why do they do this in spite of the fact they have those huge forests? Because in Japan it's almost impossible to legally cut down trees.

There's a point to this, just keep going.

In Brazil, where my family comes from, the amazon rain forests is steadily being cut down. Surely you've heard of this. Why? It being cut down to create agricultural and range land. Not only for Brazil's growing population, but also so Brazil can export vast amounts of food internationally.

If the Japanese population were willing to see it happen, Japan could chainsaw down those forests and use the land to grow food, it's ancient volcanic soil, almost anything could be made to grow. However currently the Japanese people enjoy their forests and don't wish to see them removed. They would rather import food. They choose to import food. Because of the trees.

Blockade and embargo oil you say? Unlike the early 1940's modern day Japan is a technological nation, if they know the oil isn't going to be arriving ever again they'll build large number of nuclear reactors, easy.

Plus the idea of a blockade doesn't work in the case of Japan. why? Because of the Islamic Republic of Iran of course. The United States would like very much to blockade Iran to force political concessions, Iran imports a quarter of it's food and refined fuels, however China imports lots of Iranian crude oil and will not allow America to blockade Iran. It's the same way with Japan, if China tries to blockade America will prevent it. If America tries to blockade China will prevent it. If another nation other than those two try to blockade Japan, the Japanese Self-Defense Forces (military) would likely take care if the problem themselves. This is why modern maritime nations have fleets. Welcome to the real world.

 

[KJbushway]

Japan isn't allowed to have a standing military, the U.S took it away from them after ww2. The U.S protects Japan, thats why it a choice for military personnel when they come into service. They dont even have a navy. Yes they have secruity forces, but nothing close to a military.
As far as the rain forest being cut down, yes I now the reason becuase villages where crops grow the dirt is only good for like 5 years, and the people do slash and burn farming technic. Now it could be stopped with todays technology, but many places in south america aren't as advanced as others.
Now Japan doesn't have all the natural resources in the world, like I keep pointing out it can't withstand a long blockade due to its Overcrowding, even if they cut down the forest they have. Plus, if the japanese people keep killing whales and dolphins for meat even though its banned, they will get mercury poisoning and this arguement wont have purpose.

 

[KJbushway]

Currently, that may indeed be the case, but I suspect that it's the case for the vast majority of nations on Earth that they're not longer individually sustainable if suddenly isolated. That isn't to say that said nations couldn't come to some measure of equilibrium given a few years to adapt to the sudden lack of incoming resources.

I'm one, as well, for the idea that any world government is going to come as the result of alliances, unions and commonwealths between nations--adding another layer of governmental abstraction instead of subsuming that which existed before--than just one monolithic society or some fantasy world where *insert favored nation here* beats everyone into submission in some imperialistic fantasy planet.

This holds especially true for something like the Federation. What glimpses we have of the inner workings of the Federation government are that the individual planets are there by choice. They aren't compelled or coerced into being part of it. It's just in their best interests to be in it. The Federation doesn't seem to conduct itself in an expansionist way that the various 'Empires' do, using their assorted militaries to forcibly acquire territory and spend even more to keep it subjugated. In the ST world, this philosophy seems to be the right one, as it seems somewhat implied that the Klingons, Romulans, and the Cardassians, even in their heydays, couldn't stand toe to toe with the Federation, quite possibly because too many of their internal resources were expended on maintaining their own internal dominion of subjugated races and planets, while the Federation could focus the entirety of their efforts on improvement and expansion... a little utopian and possibly naive from a narrative standpoint, yes, but in that world, it seems to work.

I imagine that a similar effect will eventually necessitate a future World Government. It's advantageous for countries and nations to work together to do that which would be prohibitively expensive, redundant, or impossible for individual nations to do, especially for endeavors that would have a global impact. As a result, other nations will join in, especially if said alliances manage to weather adversity and hardships in a way that benefits its members overall.

Even in the 24th century, it seems that individual nations still exist. Picard is from France, Riker is from Alaska, Kirk was from Iowa, Worf was raised in Russia (the Ukraine, more specifically, I think), etc. They didn't say that they were simply from Earth. Obviously they felt their nations of origin were important and distinct enough to use as personal identifiers, as well as implying that said areas still retained their own distinct and viable cultures. Yeah, government extends beyond the national level, but that doesn't mean that nations don't exist, just as the existence of the US national government doesn't obviate the existence of individual states or counties or that the EU doesn't eliminate the existence of its member nations or their own subgovernments. It just means that they're adding an additional level or government to maintain the shared transnational and potentially global infrastructure required to continue our economic and technological progression.

actually there is one exception to that rule,
Russia has abundant untapped natural resources, which inlcude the most fertile land in world, untouched oil, and becuase its so big and the population isn't all crunched together, it could become isolated from the world and survive.
I think that one way to solve the population it to have a birth limit law, it would never work. However, it would solve the problem over time, eventually you would have more elders than toddlers.

 

[T'Girl]

Japan isn't allowed to have a standing military, the U.S took it away from them after ww2. The U.S protects Japan, thats why it a choice for military personnel when they come into service. They dont even have a navy. Yes they have secruity forces, but nothing close to a military.

Currently the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has the second largest navy in Asia (one carrier, many destroyers and frigates), China has the largest Asian navy. The Air arm operate over 800 military aircraft, including F-15s and F-2s. All Self-Defense Force personnel are legally civilians (special civil servants), in spite of that piece of fiction, they are Japan's uniformed military.

As far as the rain forest being cut down, yes I now the reason becuase villages where crops grow the dirt is only good for like 5 years

It's called cow manure, you mix it into the soil. One of my families farms in Brazil (on former rain forest land) has been producing food for over a 160 years.

if the japanese people keep killing whales and dolphins for meat even though its banned

Apparently not banned by them, Japan is a sovereign country. American Indian's hunt and kill whale too, the Makah indian, less than 100 miles from where i am take whale, I know because I was there a couple on years ago when they pulled one of their kills up on shore. Didn't taste bad raw (chewie), better cooked.