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NASA Moving Ahead With Orion

Honestly? I think this is kind of pathetic. Sure, its marginally more powerful and spacious than a Dragon capsule, but the Dragon could lift more people, be operational sooner and probably cost less. That Nautilus-X concept seems to be a far more...practical and aspirational vehicle for deep space exploration than the MPCV.

Sure, it'd probably rely on some untested components and be a completely new and radical approach to manned spaceflight, but that's what the Apollo was back in the 60s. Sure, mistakes were made along the way, people lost their lives - but we achieved what no one else had done up until that point. It just seems to be that NASA has lost the balls to do anything nowadays. I think they need a speech from this guy:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ErkeFA-QWk[/yt]

Its a freaking TV show, but it makes a whole lot more sense to me than revisiting something another company is doing for a fraction of the cost with the same functionality...
 
I think that it is a very good thing that both NASA and SpaceX are going to work on new heavy lifters. We could get more flights in per year having two manned heavy lifters.
 
I don't get the "big announcement" part.

They're continuing with Orion, which is what they decided to do when they scrapped the rest of Constellation anyway.

Only now it's called MPCV. Wow.

And I don't get what the "multi-purpose" part is.
They say it's for "deep space" uses.
Yet it surely looks like it can launch crew into LEO.
But they're not gonna use it for that?
What multi-purposes?

And they mention a "21 day capability".
What deep space return-trip mission can be done in 21 days? Where? How?

What role does it play in a "deep space" mission?
Does the crew launch in it?
Does the crew transit in this vehicle? Cislunar and Marsbound and Asteroid travel and whatnot?
And at the deep space destination, does the crew land in this vehicle? Or is that another spacecraft?

And yeah, it's a glorified Apollo spacecraft after all.
More capable and advanced, but just re-inventing the wheel.


After DC-X and X-33 and Ares 1-X... I'll believe it when it's actually in service.
 
Well, to answer "what it does" look to what you keep comparing it to, the Apollo capsule.

The main reason it's in development is so that we don't end up with all of our eggs in one basket again like we did with the shuttle. Dragon is great, but if there is a problem with it do we really want to be without another source of manned capability?

Nautilus-X is a Powerpoint pipe dream. While I like the idea, NASA won't have the money to build anything that ambitious for quite a while.

As for Dragon carrying more people than MPCV, it does that at the expense of mission time. 21 days in space takes a lot more life support gear than a quick hop to the ISS. When we do see an extended mission time Dragon don't be surprised to find the crew number reduced to 4 or 3.
 
It's all really iffy.

What is with this figure of "twenty-one days"?
Based on what? Electrical power? Life support? Consumables? Fuel? For how many crewmembers?

And why 21 days? Not 24 or 15?

Again, what roundtrip mission do they intend to accomplish in 21 days? Who figured this out? To what destination?

Look at the size of the thing. How many people are supposed to live in it on a "deep space" mission?

I know astronauts set a record in a sporty two-seater Gemini capsule of two weeks. And most shuttle missions max out around the two week mark.
How many astronauts are gonna live how long in that MPCV capsule?

More vexing questions than excitement.
 
Well, to answer "what it does" look to what you keep comparing it to, the Apollo capsule.

The main reason it's in development is so that we don't end up with all of our eggs in one basket again like we did with the shuttle. Dragon is great, but if there is a problem with it do we really want to be without another source of manned capability?

Nautilus-X is a Powerpoint pipe dream. While I like the idea, NASA won't have the money to build anything that ambitious for quite a while.

As for Dragon carrying more people than MPCV, it does that at the expense of mission time. 21 days in space takes a lot more life support gear than a quick hop to the ISS. When we do see an extended mission time Dragon don't be surprised to find the crew number reduced to 4 or 3.

Oh, I agree entirely about what your saying, but its just at this point in time the only purpose for a spacecraft is only to fly to the ISS. Which is what MPCV will be doing for its initial missions, something that the Dragon will hopefully be doing sooner. Yeah, ok, I see the problem with all the eggs in one basket thing, but I was under the impression that a stacked launcher would be inherently safer than the shuttle anyway - sure, there's a chance they might blow up on launch, but theres a chance of that with every launch anyway. I just don't see the point in developing a vehicle which for the first decade of its life will be playing catchup to another one before it might go on this mythical "21 day mission" which is to the moon or a near Earth Asteroid. Which as you said is something a specially equipped Dragon capsule could do.
 
It's all really iffy.

What is with this figure of "twenty-one days"?
Based on what? Electrical power? Life support? Consumables? Fuel? For how many crewmembers?
Hmmm, a combination of those things?:rolleyes:
And why 21 days? Not 24 or 15?
Because that's how the math worked out?:rolleyes:
Again, what roundtrip mission do they intend to accomplish in 21 days?
asteroid visit, moon trips, Lagrange points
Who figured this out?
Um, NASA?
To what destination?
see above

Look at the size of the thing. How many people are supposed to live in it on a "deep space" mission?
As stated, it can accommodating 4. More than likely for an extended mission it will most likely be paired up with a mission module of some type for addition space. Moon missions would of course require a lander to be paired with it.

I know astronauts set a record in a sporty two-seater Gemini capsule of two weeks. And most shuttle missions max out around the two week mark.
How many astronauts are gonna live how long in that MPCV capsule?
see above, again.
More vexing questions than excitement.

Sounds like more hysterical questions than excitement to me. Think a little and I am sure you could have answered those yourself.

To make a pun out of it, MPCV was not meant to be used in a void. When destinations for it are picked it will either take additional infrastructure with it or additional infrastructure will already be in place to greet it.
 
I'm mostly questioning the term "deep space." At what point does space become deep? When I think of deep space, I think of something a lot farther away than the moon.
 
I am going to regret asking this question...Why can't they update the space shuttle and launch system? It seems to have been working well for the past 30 years. :shrug:

[edit] Thanks for elaborating sojourner. :bolian:
 
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^No, no it hasn't.

It's killed more astronauts than all other launchers combined. It's just not safe. during launch there is no abort capability for the crew for much of the time, witness Challenger. During rentry it is at the mercy of tiny heat tiles and glue (which was damaged by styrofoam), witness Columbia. The price to fix the flaws in the design combined with the price of continued uses of it out weigh the cost to develop something new and cheaper.
 
*sigh* Oh well. At least NASA has something to do while they wait for Congress to design the next launch vehicle. Maybe without the mass restrictions imposed by Ares I they can make Orion a bit more robust. Perhaps they could add back in the capability to be recovered from land, one of the original selling points for CEV.
 
Someone explain to me how this is an advancement from the shuttle? It looks like a step back to the 1960s.
 
Someone explain to me how this is an advancement from the shuttle? It looks like a step back to the 1960s.

Well, sometimes it's the overall approach that's more "advanced" versus the technology behind it. On paper the STS was vastly more capable than Apollo:
-partly reusable vs. the totally expendable Saturn V
-could return a payload from orbit intact
-could land on any runway in its cross range of 10,000 miles instead of needing a vast recovery fleet to pluck it out of the ocean
-more frequent launches should have introduced economies of scale and forced down the cost of each launch

The problem comes in the application.

In order to achieve resuability, STS had to suffer with these extremely fragile silicon tiles which needed to be replaced EVERY time it returned. This required a vast team of workers who would inspect literally every square foot of the exterior. One small mistake and the shield is breached, as happened with the foam strike on Columbia's wing. On the other hand, expendable capsules have a coating on the bottom which simply evaporates, taking the heat with it. For a certain speed and trajectory, you need a certain amount of material, so you just put that much on and, since the capsule is a expendable, you don't have to worry about replacing lost heat shield material. Or if you have a reusable capsule, you can just pull off the heat shield as one unit and put a new one on in one simple operation.

Furthermore, to achieve the return to Earth and cross range capability, the shuttle also had to have those huge delta wings which are dead weight during launch. This impinged upon the cargo capacity and forced NASA to eliminate full re-usability from the booster, not to mention any sort of "optional" crew escape system, something which Apollo had throught its design cycle. The other result of this is that the shuttle combines two disparate roles in one vehicle: moving people (the original reason it was called a "shuttle") and a large payload together into orbit.

The scarcity of payloads large enough to justify launch in that vast cargo bay meant the shuttle could not be used as often as would be necessary to drive down the costs. So instead of dozens of cheap launches per year, we got only 2 or 3 at a princely sum. Granted, the CSM's mission was different from the shuttle, but the Apollo system had both heavy lift and personnel shuttle ability because the Saturn booster was scalable. If you want to launch people into LEO, just put up a CSM on a Saturn 1b. If you want to send people to the moon, or launch a space station (i.e. Skylab), have it ride a Saturn V.

So, every advantage the shuttle was supposed to have over Apollo ended up making it a white elephant. In short, though the capsule approach was and still is primitive compared to the sexy ideas of spaceplanes and SSTO rocketships, it is far more practical and robust, something the shuttle seriously lacked.

Given their experience with the STS, the choice of "Apollo on steroids" seemed the correct one. Ares I replicates the Saturn 1b capability while Ares V would surpass Saturn V's heavy lift capacity. Unfortunately, NASA is required by Congress to use the unreliable solid rocket boosters in whatever new launcher they come up with. This is all to "retain the workforce and technology from the shuttle", i.e. give pork to the Senators with space contractors in their districts. Unfortunately, today there is no single competent voice like Von Braun who was entrusted with overseeing the whole Saturn system from inception to flight.
 
Someone explain to me how this is an advancement from the shuttle? It looks like a step back to the 1960s.

Well, sometimes it's the overall approach that's more "advanced" versus the technology behind it. On paper the STS was vastly more capable than Apollo:
-partly reusable vs. the totally expendable Saturn V
-could return a payload from orbit intact
-could land on any runway in its cross range of 10,000 miles instead of needing a vast recovery fleet to pluck it out of the ocean
-more frequent launches should have introduced economies of scale and forced down the cost of each launch

The problem comes in the application.

In order to achieve resuability, STS had to suffer with these extremely fragile silicon tiles which needed to be replaced EVERY time it returned. This required a vast team of workers who would inspect literally every square foot of the exterior. One small mistake and the shield is breached, as happened with the foam strike on Columbia's wing. On the other hand, expendable capsules have a coating on the bottom which simply evaporates, taking the heat with it. For a certain speed and trajectory, you need a certain amount of material, so you just put that much on and, since the capsule is a expendable, you don't have to worry about replacing lost heat shield material. Or if you have a reusable capsule, you can just pull off the heat shield as one unit and put a new one on in one simple operation.

Furthermore, to achieve the return to Earth and cross range capability, the shuttle also had to have those huge delta wings which are dead weight during launch. This impinged upon the cargo capacity and forced NASA to eliminate full re-usability from the booster, not to mention any sort of "optional" crew escape system, something which Apollo had throught its design cycle. The other result of this is that the shuttle combines two disparate roles in one vehicle: moving people (the original reason it was called a "shuttle") and a large payload together into orbit.

The scarcity of payloads large enough to justify launch in that vast cargo bay meant the shuttle could not be used as often as would be necessary to drive down the costs. So instead of dozens of cheap launches per year, we got only 2 or 3 at a princely sum. Granted, the CSM's mission was different from the shuttle, but the Apollo system had both heavy lift and personnel shuttle ability because the Saturn booster was scalable. If you want to launch people into LEO, just put up a CSM on a Saturn 1b. If you want to send people to the moon, or launch a space station (i.e. Skylab), have it ride a Saturn V.

So, every advantage the shuttle was supposed to have over Apollo ended up making it a white elephant. In short, though the capsule approach was and still is primitive compared to the sexy ideas of spaceplanes and SSTO rocketships, it is far more practical and robust, something the shuttle seriously lacked.

Given their experience with the STS, the choice of "Apollo on steroids" seemed the correct one. Ares I replicates the Saturn 1b capability while Ares V would surpass Saturn V's heavy lift capacity. Unfortunately, NASA is required by Congress to use the unreliable solid rocket boosters in whatever new launcher they come up with. This is all to "retain the workforce and technology from the shuttle", i.e. give pork to the Senators with space contractors in their districts. Unfortunately, today there is no single competent voice like Von Braun who was entrusted with overseeing the whole Saturn system from inception to flight.

Great explanation.:techman:

Thank you....I appreciate all the typing.
 
Maybe NASA also learned a thing or two from the Russians here. Russia is using the Soyuz for over four decades now, with constant technical upgrades every few years (the latest model, the Soyuz TMA-M, was introduced last year). The Chinese use an improved Soyuz derivative too.

I wonder whether the initial decision to develop a new Apollo-derived capsule was partly influenced by the first-hand experience NASA had made with Soyuz via the ISS program (in addition to the fact that another Space Shuttle had just been destroyed back then).

All in all, the space capsule is a design that has proven itself, while Shuttle was perhaps only an expensive gadget.
 
There was another thing called Orion I would be much more excited about. This new Orion thing is mostly uninteresting and almost not newsworthy. The good news are that they scrapped this joke called the space shuttle – anything else is better than the shuttle.
 
A part of me still wishes VentureStar was looked at again...surely in the, what, 12-13 years of no development on that particular project, the fuel tank issues could have been sorted out by now? What with Carbon Nanotubes and whatnot, I think a super strong super light fuel tank is really a possibility by now.

I think The X-33 also used a metallic thermal protection system, eliminating the need for those flimsy, weak tiles.

On paper its a great design, its a shame it was just technically beyond reach at the time it was being developed.
 
Well, 21 days would give almost two weeks in lunar orbit. If they build a new lunar lander as well, having nearly two weeks on the moon's surface would get a lot of exploring done, wouldn't it? Heck, even without a lander, that much time in lunar orbit would get a lot of up close and personal survey work done.
 
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At what point does space become deep? When I think of deep space, I think of something a lot farther away than the moon.
I believe this is NASA talk for non-Earth orbit.

Altitude classifications of High Earth orbit (HEO): Geocentric orbits above the altitude of geosynchronous orbit 35786 km (22240 miles).

This thread is about one Nasa spacecraft for a number of short missions (under 30 days).

For very long missions to Mars and the Moon see some of the discussion in this thread:
manned Mission to Mars discussion
 
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