My TOS Shuttlecraft...

[Warped9]

^^ The concern I have with hardcopy is the cost of printing. For it to be viable and to get the cost down would mean a large run for bulk savings. I can't afford that unless I knew in advance what the demand would likely be. And I don't think it would be worth approaching someone like Pocket Books because they've made it plain that they're not into doing reference material anymore, and in the event they did no doubt it would have to be from "official" sources.

Having said that I will look into the cost of printing a limited number of sets and may be willing to do them on order for a select few. After all we're talking about thirty 11x17 in. pages here and that can't be cheap to get printed in limited number of sets. And, of course, there's also the packaging.

Another cheaper alternative would be to make the set available on CD. That certainly gets around the cost factor to a large extent and I can do everything at home, and that would include a hard case or nice envelope as well as a nicely done cd label. Of course that would still mean the customer would have to get the hardcopies printed themselves. Another advantage of this is that the originals, so to speak, wouldn't yellow and wear with age.

This remains one of favourite photomanips and something like it will be included in the set of plans. Interesting that when I enlarged the craft in this image I was almost bang on with the size my shuttlecraft ended up being in my drawings.

 

[B.J.]

It's probably already been mentioned (it's a long topic!), but what about a print-on-demand service? Or would that be a sticky situation with Star Trek copyrights and such?

 

[Warped9]

*Sigh*

Now I've gotten to thinking about the damned hangar deck just when I was trying to focus on getting this project done.

There's one idea that came to me while lying awake in bed this morning in the early a.m. I won't know how well it pans out until I sit down and start doing some serious measurements, drawings and scaling. Essentially, though, my idea relates to the turntable elevator and how shuttlecraft are handled aboard ship.

We already know that Federation science has mastered (or at least become reasonably proficient) with manipulating gravity and antigravity. This is demonstrated by the Enterprise artificial gravity that is localized and tightly restricted to the decks holding people and objects down onto the floor. Outside of that the artificial gravity effect does not appear to extend beyond the ship's hull to affect anything that could be nearby. And so their AG hasn't little to nothing to do with actual physical mass as a planet's or star's natural gravity does. This idea is also reinforced by the use of modestly sized hand held "antigrav" units we've seen in "The Changeling" and "Obsesson."

Note that unlike contemporary aircraft and the shuttle orbitor the shuttlecraft don't have wheels but rather landing pads. And so some mechanism must be utilized to move the vehicles about the hangar deck area. I can also envision some manner of magnetic and/or mechanical clamping device used to secure the vehicles into place once parked to prevent unwanted shifting whenever the ship experiences serious attitude changes than even affect the ship's otherwise very effective artificial gravity and inertial systems.

But the turtable/elevator, it's location and how it's utilized, that needs to be addressed.

Imagine for a moment: A shuttlecraft enters the hangar guided by a shipboard tractor beam guidance system which lands the craft automatically and moves it into an exact postion on the T/E. Magnetic clamps steadfastly hold the craft in an exact position on the T/E. The T/E may now rotate 90 degrees to allow for passengers to disembark as seen in "Journey To Babel." Now, after debarkation, one of two things happen: either the craft is moved to a parking place to one side and aft of the T/E or the craft needs to be brought down into the lower level maintenance area for service and/or storage. For the latter to happen how can it work?

We already know that the cut of the fantail precludes a full deck height under the flight deck to allow for the shuttlecraft to fit properly there. But maybe the T/E doesn't operate exactly like a conventional lift. Witness the ship's turbolift cars which move sideways as well as up-and-down. Perhaps the T/E doesn't have to lower full shuttlecraft height.

And so again imagine: after debarkation the craft is rotated again 90 degrees to face the craft's distinctly slanted bow directly forward. Our T/E doesn't have a conventional centrally located hydraulic (or whatever) lift system. Rather the T/E may be supported by three points about its outer rim that run in tandem on tracks. With the shuttlecraft facing bow wards the T/E lowers as far as it can straight down, but when it can descend no further it begins to slide on its tracks on a forward downwards angle until it is clear of the opening above and has descended fully into the lower level. At this point another tractor beam or antigrav system moves the shuttlecraft into a berthing postion and the T/E returns upwards to its place on the flight deck.

Like I said I have to do some drawings and measurements to see how this can work. Also remember that all we've really seen of the hangar deck is a forced perspective minature set that like the shuttlecraft may not properly reflect exact sizes and positions of objects. There can be some leeway for adaptation and still look near exactly like what we're familiar with onscreen.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Wow...

That sounds... well, it sounds unnecessarily complicated. But maybe I'm just missing some element you're talking about. I don't fully follow the whole rotating-to-make-it-fit bit anyway.

The turntable element is, in essence, a "lazy susan" like what we'll all be eating our deviled eggs off of this thursday. It's circular, and very low-profile. The elevator is a rectangular shaped section of deck that travels one, (or more?) decks downwards).

It needs to have a power and control interface, and while you COULD make that entirely wireless, I suppose, I don't see any real reason to do so in this case. For idealized "Roddenberry's perfect future" operation, it does NOT necessarily need to have "support posts" on all four corners, however. It could be a simple rectangle of deck that moves up and down by use of grav-manipulation... provided that (1) the grav-manipulation was very reliable (ie, a brief interruption in power wouldn't cause it to come crashing down... something that a mechanical track with hydraulics CANNOT unless the platform literally breaks away from the tracks completely). SO, I'm inclined to still have four hydraulic lifts, or worm-screws, or other mechanical actuators at all four corners. Just because these devices don't kill people if you turn off the power to them.

This said... the only issue, really, is "how do you store the shuttlecraft on the hangar deck." Note that I dislike the terminology that they use in the series... "hangar" is where you STORE craft... versus "landing" or "landing" bays where you, well... you get the idea! Since it's clear that they don't actually store the shuttles on the 1701's "hangar deck," I would suggest that we should be calling the area BELOW THAT the actual "hangar deck." Oh well...

That said... when I use the term "hangar" I'll be referring to the space below, where the ships are stored, and maintained.

The issue, as I best understand your concerns, is that you don't see how to fit all the shuttles you think that the 1701 has into the space available?

To be fair, we only know that the 1701 had three shuttles. EVERYTHING else is conjectural. We know that because we know that two other shuttles were used to search for the Galileo. We know that one of those two other shuttles was the Columbus.

In other words, if it's a matter of radically redesigning something, or coming up with some "rubik's cube" solution for storing the shuttle, or if you have to reduce the number of embarked craft to make them fit... I think that reducing the number of embarked craft is what should be done.

We THINK that there are seven embarked craft on the 1701. But maybe there are ONLY three... and the first four were destroyed or retired. Maybe Galileo is just the seventh embarked craft to be assigned to the Enterprise.

Or, maybe the other ships are just very small vessels - workbee-sized elements, perhaps?

Or... maybe I'm totally missing your point.

 

[ancient]

Or maybe the whole deck retracts a la TMP, via a nearly invisible seperation point in the middle and the turntable is...just a turntable.

The whole area may be thought of as one general area, thus the whole upper deck and all the lower unseen decks are all different sections of the "hangar", i.e. Hangar level 1, hangar level 2, etc.

 

[Captain Robert April]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ancient]

Captain Robert April said:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I step on your foot? Or is that the sound a redshirt makes as he falls through a large rectangular hole in the deck?

 

[Tallguy]

Captain Robert April said:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!

That made me spit my coffee. I don't know if anyone else could have made me laugh that hard with that response, CRA.

I think it DOES sound a little too complicated. For some reason ships made to fit EXACTLY with other ships strikes me as fanboy. No offense, your designs are anything but, that's just how it hits me at first blush.

I have two requirements for the shuttle deck, half of which is based on what we've seen on screen. There must be a turntable. It must also be an elevator that can travel straight down for at least most of a deck. I know there are clearance issues.

I'd say don't fool with it and finish your shuttle plans.

 

[Warped9]

Captain Robert April said:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!

CRA and TallGuy, I have copies of each of your respective E cross sections and have superimposed my 7.888m. shuttlecraft onto each...and it fits nicely. The only variable is the below decks area. aridas has also done a very nice E cross section that was extrapolated from the little cross section seen in The Making Of Star Trek and my shuttlecraft fits near perfectly in there. One thing aridas did was adapt the idea that not all decks are necessarily the same height and this approach works rather nicely in regards to the shuttlecraft maintenace area (SMA) below the flight deck. And aridas has maintained a 947ft. ship.

Furthermore upon studying aridas' cross section it may not even be necessary for my T/E to descend omly partially before beginning to slide forward. Also my understanding has always been that the elevator part of the T/E was the slightly larger circle within which the turntable is set. All this gives me some hope that whenever I get around to doing my take on the hangar deck I should just be able to make it work.

CRA and TallGuy, all that needs to be done in your respective cross sections for a 26ft. shuttlecraft to fit is open up the height of the deck for the craft in that area, if you're so inclined.

Cary L. Brown, I don't think there's anything truly novel about my basic idea. Don't the elevators on contemporary aircraft carriers work on some kind of rail system? And we are talking about a far future engineering where materials are comparatively stronger and lighter than today as well as engineering systems beyond what we may currently be able to do.

 

[MGagen]

I like your latest musing, Warped9. I've thought for a while now that the lift must have some way of moving straight down as far as possible, then moving down and forward the rest of the way. What I had never considered was the possibility of the raked forward angle of the shuttle being part of the equation. That's inspired.

Of course, just lowering the shuttle while it's turned sideways might increase the clearance, too.

Cary does have a point about reliability under adverse conditions. I'd favor having the lift run in four tracks (one at each corner) rather like a garage door. They'd be straight down part of the way, then gently curve into an angle forward. It's somewhat low tech, but it still works when the power goes down.

M.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Four tracks or three the basic idea is still sound I think.

These sort of "adaptations" and interpretations of what we see onscreen are tricky. When I look at my shuttlecraft I see where I might have done things a little differently even though I'm generally very pleased with how it's developing. I know I could have subtly tightened up the exterior width of the craft and still looked pretty much like the fullsize exterior mockup onscreen, but I was adamant that the exterior retain the mockup's proportions as much as possible. Same with the interior. Dimemsions and scales might be altered somewhat, but in the end it still has to look like what we see onscreen to be convincing.

 

[Warped9]

Even as I creep towards eventual completion of this project I'm already considering what I'll be tackling next. I've already mentioned that at some point I'll be adapting the TAS shuttle designs into something more credible within TOS' "reality." I also intend to render the TMP era shuttlecraft and this is where things could get interesting.

The detachable part of the Vulcan shuttlecraft seen in TMP can't be the standard Starfleet shipboard carried shuttlecraft--it's simply too damned big. Mind you in a shot of the hangar and cargo area facilities of the TMP refit E we do se a glimpse of the tail end of what appears to be this shuttlecraft on the level under the main flight deck. I'm thinking that this may be a smaller variant of the Vulcan shuttlecraft, which will, of course, entail adapting the design into a more manageable package.

The other movie era shuttlecraft is the TFF Galileo 5. In size it's comparable to my 26ft. shuttlecraft and so no real size problems there. But the interior may have to be redressed to make the vehicle more analogous to the TOS shuttlecraft concept and in the the process lose the really stupid aft end door.

And finally there's a pre TOS shuttlecraft idea I'm sketching out as well as TOS era workbees of which the Enterprise may carry two or three of them below the hangar facilities in the fantail area. Indeed that rectangle seen under the fantail could well be a hatch that opens for the workpods when needed.

 

[USS Mariner]

Warped9 said:
Even as I creep towards eventual completion of this project I'm already considering what I'll be tackling next. I've already mentioned that at some point I'll be adapting the TAS shuttle designs into something more credible within TOS' "reality." I also intend to render the TMP era shuttlecraft and this is where things could get interesting.

The detachable part of the Vulcan shuttlecraft seen in TMP can't be the standard Starfleet shipboard carried shuttlecraft--it's simply too damned big. Mind you in a shot of the hangar and cargo area facilities of the TMP refit E we do se a glimpse of the tail end of what appears to be this shuttlecraft on the level under the main flight deck. I'm thinking that this may be a smaller variant of the Vulcan shuttlecraft, which will, of course, entail adapting the design into a more manageable package.

No need, the TMP Vulcan "long-range" shuttle was never supposed to inhabit the hangars anyway.

That's what the standard version was for.

And don't forget the accessories!



Also, feel free to add side doors. Andy would have done that, as per his 2005 interview @ Trekplace.

 

[Tallguy]

I was going to post that but couldn't remember where I'd seen it...

 

[Warped9]

Mariner Class said:

Warped9 said:
Even as I creep towards eventual completion of this project I'm already considering what I'll be tackling next. I've already mentioned that at some point I'll be adapting the TAS shuttle designs into something more credible within TOS' "reality." I also intend to render the TMP era shuttlecraft and this is where things could get interesting.

The detachable part of the Vulcan shuttlecraft seen in TMP can't be the standard Starfleet shipboard carried shuttlecraft--it's simply too damned big. Mind you in a shot of the hangar and cargo area facilities of the TMP refit E we do se a glimpse of the tail end of what appears to be this shuttlecraft on the level under the main flight deck. I'm thinking that this may be a smaller variant of the Vulcan shuttlecraft, which will, of course, entail adapting the design into a more manageable package.

No need, the TMP Vulcan "long-range" shuttle was never supposed to inhabit the hangars anyway.

That's what the standard version was for.

And don't forget the accessories!



Also, feel free to add side doors. Andy would have done that, as per his 2005 interview @ Trekplace.

I had heard of a smaller version yet have never seen drawings of it otrher than the "accessories" image of which I have a copy already. Do you have a larger version of that first schematic like image I could study more? And if so could you please email it to me?

Actually as I study this image more I'm still skeptical. That smaller version is still forty feet long and about half that wide and that's big considering that the TMP refit E isn't that much bigger than the TOS E. This shuttle is 14 feet longer than my 26ft. shuttlecraft and nearly twice as wide.

 

[USS Mariner]

Warped9 said:

I had heard of a smaller version yet have never seen drawings of it otrher than the "accessories" image of which I have a copy already. Do you have a larger version of that first schematic like image I could study more? And if so could you please email it to me?

Actually as I study this image more I'm still skeptical. That smaller version is still forty feet long and about half that wide and that's big considering that the TMP refit E isn't that much bigger than the TOS E. This shuttle is 14 feet longer than my 26ft. shuttlecraft and nearly twice as wide.

Ask Andy.

Also, as for the size of the shuttlebay, the hull was extended aft from the TOS version quite a ways, and made more rotund from both the TOS and Phase II models. It fits.

 

[Warped9]

Thinking ahead...

Everything is not exactly to scale and in proportion in these sketches, but they do give a fair idea of the direction I'm leaning towards. This is still a sizable craft and certainly not meant to be carried regularly aboard ship, but it is suitable for ship-to-ship rendezvous. The scoutship is meant for starbases and outposts that may require longrange rapid tranport on short notice. It is somewhat of a TOS era runabout and a precursor to the TMP era Vulcan longrange shuttlecraft.

 

[Sarvek]

I love your take on the long-range scoutship. I will be looking forward to where it is going. Keep up the great work and keep those ideas coming.

 

[Warped9]

Thanks. I recently rewatched the three TAS episodes with the shuttlecraft from the recent TAS dvd set and sadly the vehicles onscreen are rather crudely drawn designs with apparently little real thought to them. I therefore feel quite comfortable adapting to them a more credible TOS "reality" much like Alan Dean Foster adapted and fleshed out the TAS episodes in his Star Trek Log books. That said I still wish to retain some conceptual semblane to the onscreen designs. My aquashuttle, though, is the one that will necessarily diverge the most from the onscreen version.

 

[ancient]

The little man looks to be 4 ft tall.

For a 6-ft person I sketch the head 1/8 the total height and the legs about 1/2 the total height. I just mention it because it really throws the scale out of wack.