My TOS Shuttlecraft...

[Warped9]

^^ Yep. That's the cross-section I used. I scaled my shuttlecraft to the scale of your drawing (assuming yours is a 947ft. E) and then slid it in. My 25.88ft. shuttle fits easily on the hangar deck, but not below the hangar in your maintenance facilities because the ceiling height is too low for it. I had a similar result with aridas' E cross-section even though his below hangar shuttlecraft facilities are somewhat more spacious than yours.

I didn't do this comparison to remark upon your work, but only for a quick reference. I'm going to try it with FJ's cross-section as well. But since I'm committed to my version of the craft then it means I'm eventually going to have to tacle doing my own drawings of the hangar deck.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Wonderful how these things happen, ain't it?

Did the shuttle fit at all in the lower deck, or is it just that there's extremely little ceiling room?

 

[Warped9]

^^ No, I didn't have enough room. The upper hull of my shuttle was poking up into the ceiling.

Now quite some time back (in my Never seen TOS scenes thread) I posted a quick-and-dirty image manip of my basic concept for the hangar deck and lower maintenance facilities. I dug those up and revisted them only to find that I was surprising not far off even though I was using the forced perspective images from TMoST. Still, using your cross-section as well as aridas' for quick reference it looks like I'll eventually be able to make it work.

In regards to my shuttlecraft its ceiling height would allow anyone up to almost 5'-9" to walk upright while anyone taller would have to stoop slightly, which is exactly what Nimoy appeared to be doing to convey a cramped interior even though it was blatantly apparent that he had enough headroom. Still, they all had to stoop to exit the craft or pass through to the aft compartment. And so although I haven't got a truly fullsize interior it is scaled to reflect what they seemed to be trying to convey onscreen.

 

[Patrickivan]

This is awesome stuff!

 

[Warped9]

Warped9 said:
...since I'm committed to my version of the craft then it means I'm eventually going to have to tacle doing my own drawings of the hangar deck.

And while I'm at that I suppose I'll get around to doing a TOS version of the workbee, which I already have some nebulous ideas about. Just as well since I'd like to have that for my SCL project eventually.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Let's take another look at that hangar deck...

I suppose I could lower the deck level of that maintenance area about a foot. That'd still leave plenty of headroom in the workbee area (which I still need to flesh out some).

As for the workbee, the only difference I see is in the cockpit instrumentation. Externally, I think they'd be identical to the ones we saw in TMP.

 

[Warped9]

CRA, don't make changes for my sake...unless if by chance you happen to basically agree with my take on the TOS shuttlecraft. That said I'm not entirely certain what you were using as a size reference for the shuttlecraft before--the image in TMoST perhaps or FJ's in his SFTM? FJ's shuttlecraft is truly small.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It was a pure guesstimate on my part, based on the TMOST drawing.

And I do happen to agree with your take on the shuttlecraft.

It might also be interesting to work up Shuttlecraft Types A-E, and nailing down the Type F seems to be a perfect starting point on that front.

 

[Warped9]

Thanks. I also plan to depict different interior setups in the Class F to reflect its adaptability for different missions. This is, of course, extrapolated from what we saw onscreen. I'd say from that one could conjecture that some Class F's could be fitted differently internally on a more permanent basis. Perhaps a starbase or medical support ship could have a small fleet of Class F's fitted as the equivalents of space going ambulances. In that case then those craft could be classified as something else.

One could also conjecture that classes below the F were earlier shuttles that may or may not be still in service. No?

 

[Captain Robert April]

Maybe. Maybe not.

That's where the fun lies.

 

[aridas sofia]

This discussion continues, so I am wondering whether this was missed:

aridas sofia said:
^I sent you a scan of Jefferies' original, rudimentary, shuttlecraft sketch a while back, along with a profile/bow/aft view from that drawing that I made. That is -- I believe -- the genesis for the design that AMT developed further.

Jefferies did a sketch of a shuttlecraft design similar to what we ended up with. It was shorter, had windows on the side and a different door, and a curving "windshield" type front window. It clearly is a more-primitive version of the design AMT refined.

I'd post it but I don't have access to my files at the moment. But I did send a scan of the art to Warped a few weeks ago.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Yes I did get it. It was essentially similar to the little sketch CRA posted for discussion except that the vehicle had something like a bubble front end. To me it looked very much like a sketch in the midst of progressing on towards something of a more finalized form.

 

[B.J.]

Any chance the rest of us can see that sketch? (Or did I miss it somewhere?)

B.J.

 

[MGagen]

Captain Robert April said:
Well, the drawing in TMoST doesn't quite match either the full-scale mockup or the miniature.

Hence, my point. The TMOST scale drawing came first. The mockup and miniature match each other fairly well and both reflect what AMT did to Jefferies design.

It's definitely a preliminary thumbnail made prior to the more detailed drawing that showed up in TMoST, but I suspect it was after being shown what AMT was doing and getting some general measurements, without having the actual construction plans on hand.

That's laughable. You're going on about how busy the art department is (it was), but somehow they have time to jaunt over to AMT (which was in Phoenix) and have a look-see, take a few measurements, fly back to Hollywood, and waste their time making an inaccurate sketch of the thing while it's still being built.

And this in spite of a note on the drawing in Jefferies' own hand saying "As designed and built by AMT Phoenix." Note the distinct use of past tense. It can't be a "preliminary thumbnail" if the thing it represents is already built by the time it was drawn.

It makes as much sense as that hack who wrote The Da Vinci Code claiming that Leonardo painted Mary Magdalene into The Last Supper -- even though we have a notebook with the artist's studies for the painting with the name of each apostle written above the figures in his own hand. Guess what -- it was the apostle John...

M.

 

[Warped9]

B.J. said:
Any chance the rest of us can see that sketch? (Or did I miss it somewhere?)

B.J.

If I'm not mistaken that sketch is also in the Star Trek Sketchbook. I'll check this evening when I get home.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Where the hell did I say anybody travelled to AMT? If Jefferies had actually been to AMT facilities, that sketch would've been a lot more on the mark (for that matter, he probably would've come back with a copy of the actual blueprints).

Or are you under the impression that there was no phone service or mail delivery between Phoenix and LA at the time?

And, no, the mockup and the miniature do not match up with each other. The angle of the front section is different on both, for one thing. This was discussed at length during FourMadMen's various theads on the shuttlecraft.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I assume you know it wasn't me who suggested MJ went to AMT?

Still, the miniature and the fullsize mock-up are different in certain details (such as you've mentioned), but otherwise they were similar enough overall to look very much alike onscreen.

 

[MGagen]

Captain Robert April said:
Where the hell did I say anybody travelled to AMT?

It could certainly be taken that way.

And, no, the mockup and the miniature do not match up with each other. The angle of the front section is different on both, for one thing. This was discussed at length during FourMadMen's various theads on the shuttlecraft.

That's why I said, "The mockup and miniature match each other fairly well and both reflect what AMT did to Jefferies design." The point stands. I am well aware of the long-running discussions about the shuttlecraft. I have followed them from the beginning. I'm the one who brought Phil Broad into the discussion (which ultimately led to his groundbreaking plans of the set piece.)

You are completely (and conveniently) side stepping the issue I called you on. Namely:

Captain Robert April said:
It's definitely a preliminary thumbnail made prior to the more detailed drawing that showed up in TMoST...

...a baseless and gratuitous assertion that flies in the face of the exisiting documentation. The reverse is almost certainly true. It is far more likely that the drawing that shows up in TMOST was made earlier than the sketch, which plainly purports to show the delivered set piece "as redesigned and built (both past tense) by AMT."

To have it your way, we have to grant that Jefferies took a look at what AMT "was doing" and then wasted his time doing a further redesign that he knew would never be built. That he took precious time away from his real work on the production to do a drawing that was intentionally at odds with what was going to be seen on screen. Bosh! It's much more likely that he made a quick sketch documenting the deviations from his design, once he finally saw what they delivered, and then got on with other important work. The earlier drawing reflecting his own version went into TMOST because it wasn't worth the time necessary to redraft it.

My hypothesis of the design originating with Jefferies, then being altered by AMT to a point where MJ disowned it may not prove correct. But what you've proposed to counter it simply makes no sense.

M.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I think we're letting the rhetoric get in the way of the discussion here.

Let's back up a bit and look at what we have.

The deal with AMT happened very early. No doubt so that the Enterprise model would be on the shelves at around the time of the show's premiere in September of '66.

The deal for designing and building the shuttlecraft was part of the same deal, so that process also happened pretty early on. In other words, Jefferies was essentially out of the loop with regard to designing the shuttle pretty early on. (I can't see him not having some approval authority, but as far as desiging and building the thing, that was AMT's problem; any talk of his "disowning" the design borders on the melodramatic.)

So, what the hell is that sketch about?

I'm leaning towards the conclusion that it was to answer a question from someone in the front office, at a point where the final drawing either wasn't available or wasn't deemed necessary to answer the question at hand.

That seems to be the simplest answer, to me at least.

And all without anyone having to take a weekend road trip to Phoenix.

 

[Warped9]

The essential issues, for me, are:

- What did MJ have before it was sent off to AMT?
- How evolved or different was AMT's contribution from what was sent to them?
- What if anything was changed or modified when the final product(s) got back from AMT?
- How much of the shuttlecraft's design is MJ's and how much is Loewy's?
- And how much of the fullsize interior set design is MJ's?

In the end what I need to know is should I be giving credit to one or two individuals on my drawings?