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My TOS shuttlecraft (continued)...

Creative types can be temperamental. So hold on to your hats, folks, because I’m seriously considering jettisoning my Class H design.

Why? Because I’m less than enamored with it. I first envisioned it way back in the mid ‘70s when I was in my mid teens and I’ve long held a fondness for it. But now the more I look at it the more dissatisfied I feel despite a measure of lingering sentiment. Evermore it just looks like something rather fanboyish that lacks distinctiveness and an overall design integrity. Okay, I may be overstating it some. I’m just wondering if I can do better and I think I can

Whatever one thinks of the Class F it has design integrity. All its elements work together and look like they’re exactly where they’re supposed to be—such as the access hatch works credibly as designed because the warp nacelles are positioned to support it. But by shifting the nacelles drastically rearward (as I did) then the access hatch really needs to be wholly redesigned to work properly. I’m also unsatisfied with the look of the stabilizer and support pylons in conjunction with the nacelles—it just doesn’t look right. I now feel that my design simply perpetuates the basic approach first seen when (and perhaps even before) FJ gave us new ship designs that were really just elements of the TOS Enterprise rearranged in a different way—something many fans have been doing ever since in every incarnation of Trek.

But a truly credible and successful design would look like it is aesthetically consistent with everything else in TOS while still looking fresh and well integrated unto itself. I think my Class H design looks aesthetically consistent, but I think it’s lacking in overall design integrity. I’m skeptical MJ would have done it that way.

To that end I’m left with three options:

- Forget about the whole thing and just assume/accept that in the “real” live-action world of TOS the Copernicus was simply a reused Class F. Of course, this is the simplest approach assuming TAS’ “The Slaver Weapon” had been filmed live-action. It would also make my project somewhat smaller in scope and much more near completion. Furthermore, there is no reference whatsoever in “The Slaver Weapon” that even suggests the Copernicus was anything other than a standard shuttlecraft, other than its appearance and the fact that TAS never showed us a familiar Class F. Not even Alan Dean Foster’s adaptation of the episode in his Star Trek Log series says anything about the Copernicus being something unusual. The only reference to a scout type shuttle is in ADF’s adaptation of “Mudd’s Passion” and it is only a quick reference with no specifics. For all we know the scout idea was wholly ADF’s and all these years many fans (including myself) have simply assumed the reference applied to the rakish looking craft seen in “The Slaver Weapon.” But there is nothing at all to support that assumption other than speculation. Likewise there’s nothing in the episode “Mudd’s Passion” that references the stolen shuttlecraft as anything special either. Only ADF refers to Mudd’s stolen vehicle as a heavy lander. For both “The Slaver Weapon” and “Mudd’s Passion” a Class F shuttlecraft would have fulfilled the story needs perfectly well. In fairness there’s a little more wiggle room regarding the shuttlecraft in “Mudd’s Passion” because ADF’s adaptation specifies that’s what Mudd hijacked and thus connects with what we saw onscreen. We’re then left to decide how much weight can be given to ADF’s printed reference. Only the aquashuttle from “The Ambergris Element” is truly inconsistent with what had already been established in TOS. The idea of the scoutship and the heavy lander fall into the category of fan acceptance or “fanon” much as the acceptance of James Blish’s references to the Earth/Romulan conflict in Trek history in his adaptation of “Balance Of Terror” regarding continuity. The printed references were largely consistent with what was established onscreen and so we eagerly accepted these extra worldbuilding details to flesh out the Star Trek universe. They became so entrenched in collective acceptance that it was no wonder ENT aroused so much heated debate—but I don’t want to get that debate started again here.

- Taking a step away from hard reality, imagine the TOS producers manage to tweak their shuttlecraft mockups to have a shuttlecraft variant. Budget wise, and if TOS had lasted another season, then this just might have been feasible. And it’s something I can very easily do without violating the overall design integrity of the Class F. This was essentially my initial idea for the Copernicus until I reached into the past of youthful enthusiasm, and it’s still my fall back option failing my final alternative. The design would be consistent with the TOS aesthetic and the design would have its own overall integrity. And this option makes the most sense in terms of real world credibility. If Starfleet could wring more performance out of an existing and proven design with a little tuning to suit its requirements then that would be more cost effective than contracting for an entirely new vehicle. My view, though, is this wouldn’t be a whole new class of shuttlecraft but simply a variant. Perhaps a Class F3. I also have what could be one tiny tenuous clue to support this idea. When Kirk and (the phantom) Mendez set off after Spock in “The Menagerie” you’d think Kirk would grab the fastest thing at hand even knowing nothing available would catch the Enterprise if Spock made a race for it. Of course we know the real reason is the TOS producers could only use what they had at hand: the Class F model. But if you’re willing to stretch you could say that it just happened that not only were there not any starships at Starbase 11 but no scout (or runabout) type shuttlecraft were either. And so Kirk took the next best thing: an extended range type shuttlecraft, a Class F3… Okay, it’s flimsy, but it’s a morsel of rationalizing.

- Start with a clean sheet. Let’s assume TOS had had a fourth season and resources became available to build another shuttlecraft variant. This, of course, is the most fun option, but it involves a lot of thought and is really little more than assumption and fan speculation. If you’re going to envision a Starfleet shuttlecraft for TOS that has to exist alongside the familiar Class F within the confines of the Enterprise’s hangar facilities then there will be design constraints, particularly if you want to incorporate elements of the TAS scoutship to evoke at least some visual kinship with it. And so the next step would be establishing design parameters. Not only must the design look like it belongs in the TOS universe (very important), but it cannot exceed 29ft. in length (preferably less) and must be approximately the same overall size as the Class F design in width and height. This point is pretty much non-negotiable if you want the craft to be accommodated with the Enterprise’s hangar facilities. It also dictates that the TAS design as is isn’t going to work. That’s okay because I’m going to adapt that later anyway into a Starbase based shuttlecraft.


Now I’ve been sketching out some ideas and it appears I just might be able to render something that bridges the Class F and the TAS concept, with some compromises, of course:

- The Class F will serve as a basic template, but the new design will diverge overall while still retaining a recognizable TOS aesthetic. In conjunction with appearance this also means it must look like something that could have been reasonably feasible to construct as a fullsize mockup during series production, in much the same way the original shuttlecraft mockup was meant to represent a larger and more refined “real” spacecraft, which is what I’m trying to render.

- On the TAS ship the warp nacelles were fixed on the upper part of the craft and set aftward. In my sketches this might be doable and still end up looking credible. However, to some extent this might mean rethinking the access hatch arrangement as seen on the Class F.

- The TAS ship had its access hatch at the rear of the craft. This is also doable, but it means rethinking the impulse engine setup. Note that the TAS design didn’t appear to have impulse engines. In my forthcoming adaptation of the TAS scoutship I’ve addressed this by planning to have the impulse engines incorporated into the sides of the main hull, something I might also be able to do similarly in a new TOS design. Also, this arrangement consequently allows for more flexibility in interior space for crew.

- The TAS design had a pronounced bow section (indeed all the TAS shuttles did). This is an impossibility for a TOS design intended to be starship based because it severely compromises interior space and overall size constraints, except perhaps if you’re willing to accept a severely cramped interior for a long range vehicle which isn’t my preference. By severely I mean no more interior room than an average fullsize car or maybe a minivan—far too cramped for an extended range vehicle.

- The TAS ship had a large panoramic forward viewport. While it wouldn’t be impossible to incorporate this design element I don’t think it works within the context of TOS. Starfleet design in TOS shows that starships and shuttlecraft are flown primarily by instrumentation and that any views of the outside are easily addressed primarily with sophisticated monitor displays. I’m convinced a panoramic viewport would just look really out of place.

- The TAS craft had large stabilizer/landing supports. I think it’s quite possible to incorporate something of that look into a TOS design. This isn’t completely unprecedented since MJ’s original concept for the TOS shuttlecraft had something quite similar.

- A standing interior. With more flexibility regarding interior space then it might be possible to have a ceiling higher than the 5’-10” I have for my Class F design—it certainly wouldn’t be less. One possible option would be to have the pilot and navigator in a sort of cockpit with a lower ceiling. This would help to give the exterior a lower profile in the craft’s fore section and help in reaching a more rakish and streamlined look.

- A rakish look. After all is said and done a new design has to have some sort of coolness factor to it, in that it must have some measure of visual dynamic. This basically boils down to the craft not looking dorky or truly awkward in any way. Now fitting the warp engines to the upper part of the craft could really look odd if they’re set too far forward, and yet it might lengthen the design too much in size if set too far aft. A compromise could be that the nacelles could slide forward for shipboard storage much as aircraft have folding wings for storage aboard today’s aircraft carriers. For TOS this wouldn’t have been a serious issue because they never showed any shuttlecraft actually berthed below decks. We always saw the ships either launching, landing, in flight or landed on a planet surface. What this comes down to is creating an illusion—making a somewhat short and stubby vehicle look sleek and streamlined nonetheless, much like the Class F only perhaps more so.

One of the reasons this project has become rather protracted (besides the regular intrusion of real life) is my focus on detail. I’m referring not only to the inclusion of elements that often go unnoticed by the eye (and there can be plenty), but also aspects that many might not be conciously aware of, such as what things look like when you’re not seeing them straight on. If an object or detail is on a surface that curves or angles away from your point of view, even if just slightly, then it’s visible profile is changed. And to be accurate I’m trying to acknowledge those subtleties wherever possible. Visual shorthand can (and often is) employed in schematic type drawings (I’ve done it often myself), but if you really want to represent things properly then you have to patiently sweat the tedium of getting fine details as correct as you can.

I’m also trying to use line work in a creative way, by varying line thickness depending upon what surface or edge it denotes I’m endeavouring to convey some limited measure of 3D effect to a 2D rendering. I’m trying to impart a little more artistry beyond a straightforward schematic type of drawing. This is one step short of adding lighting effects and shadows or even colour to a purely orthographic view. Even 3D models can be presented without perspective to interesting effect.

Stay tuned.
 
Warped9 - I think you are missing a 4th option. Set the project aside for a little while and come back to it. You are not under a time constraint, so it is not like there is any rush to complete this project by such-and-such a date.

The other option is that it gives you an opportunity to look at the plans with a fresh set after having put them aside for a few months. With this new "vision" you might see where you think you went wrong (personally, I think you are on the mark on all counts, but that is just my opinion) and make the necessary adjustments. It may be something that is so obvious to you that (as we say down South) if it were a snake it would have bitten you.

This also allows you to try something different and come back to the original later.

Of course, these are all just suggestions. YMMV

I eagerly await new results, regardless of which option you choose.
 
^^ Actually I did go some months over the past winter where I really did nothing on this project and didn't even look at it. It was that fresh look a few weeks ago that made me look at my work in a new light.

Don't worry, I've got some other stuff cooking. I like to be into more than just one thing so as to keep me from getting stale.

Today or tomorrow I will finish the FINAL version of the exterior views for the Class F. :lol: And I must say I'm quite satisfied with the results. The detailing is much better and I've corrected numerous small flaws that had crept into the earlier versions. My own worst enemy is periodic impatience where I must force myself to slow down or even walk away to avoid glossing over something rather than taking the the care to get it right.

And if I may say so folks, you'll never have seen the shuttlecraft this detailed. :lol: The TOS shuttlecraft is certainly a lot more than just an upside down butter dish.

Regarding my new Copernicus concept I'll try to get some decent sketches posted soon.

Hmm. Maybe we shoould have a poll. :lol:
 
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Creative types can be temperamental. So hold on to your hats, folks, because I’m seriously considering jettisoning my Class H design.

.... long discussion omitted for post-length ....

Stay tuned.
Well, far be it from me to criticize your work on the basic shuttle (which I've stated, I consider to be about as close to "authoritative" as anyone has ever accomplished)... but I'm not at all fond of the "H" variant.

Why? Because it's basically just the regular shuttle with the nacelles moved. Yes, I know, you've incorporated some other upgrades, but overall, it's the same ship design. And that's left me somewhat underwhelmed.

On the other hand, I know how it is to be personally-attached to your own work, and your own ideas, and I've refrained from criticizing your approach as a result. That said... honestly... everything you said in the last post agrees with how I've felt all along about the "H."

If I were doing a new shuttle... and let's pretend we're doing a real-life design project, rather than a "cool art" project (ie, go into engineer mindset, not artsy-craftsy mindset)... the first thing to do is to determine the design project goals. Here's where I'd start off:

1) Does it need to be berthed on a starship? A specific class of starship? (since different starships may have different capabilities, of course). Assuming that you want this ship to be berthed on the Enterprise permanently (not necessarily a given), you're limited dimensionally. I know, I know, you've worked this all through before... I'm just setting up what your "real" requirements are.

2) What mission profiles should it be able to accomplish?


  • Cargo transfer? (how much?)
  • Personnel Transfer? (how many?)
  • Combat? (what level?)
  • Scientific scouting? (how much capability?)
  • Surveillance scouting? (does it need LR sensors and stealth capabilities?)
  • Planetary surveying? (what types of planets/environments?)
If you're doing the "Slaver Weapon" shuttle... or a replacement thereof... then we know the minimum for each of those:


  • No need for any real cargo transfer capability... at most, something equivalent to a car's trunk would suffice.
  • The thing only needs to be able to support 3 personnel... but because it's long-range, it will need a head and a galley.
  • It is not outfitted, by default, for combat.
  • It has reasonably capable sensors (long-range, perhaps even starship-grade?) but no significant stealth capabilities.
  • It is capable of landing, but doesn't seem to have any "extreme environment" capabilities.
One other thing you'll probably want to consider - it should be repairable in the field, so as many individual subcomponents as possible should be common to other hardware carried aboard-ship. This means the same sensor-reader globes, for instance, the same chairs, probably the same modules on the walls, the same landing gear pads, and so forth.

In other words, the DETAILS should be common, but the general arrangement can vary dramatically. (After all, the HULL isn't going to be swapped out... if it's damaged, it's either going to be repaired from sheet-metal and so forth, or scrapped out and replaced.)

Now, if I were the one doing this, I'd start with that... and start building a shuttle shape around the systems and capabilities which I needed to include, with the limitation that it needs to fit through the turntable/elevator and have the same height (when stowed!) as the other shuttle, or nearly so.

This doesn't mean that the "high-mount" engines have to be abandoned... only that they may need to be "undeployed" when stowed, much as many modern aircraft "undeploy" their wings after carrier landings, prior to being stowed belowdeck.

I'd try, within the constraints that I'd created, to make something as similar as practically achievable to the "Slaver Weapon" ship, but I wouldn't feel constrained by the on-screen proportions... at all.

But that's just me. :)
 
^^ I don't have the concept sketches I've done with me presently, but I want to do some better ones anyway. Like I said in my post it incorporates some similar elements of the TAS design but doesn't look like the TAS ship. Compared to a Class F the bow is distinctly more raked and the overall profile is somewhat leaner. Instead of the stabilizer/pylon arrangement of the Class F there are large almost wing like stabilizer supports that reach to the ground instead of nacelles. There is no large forward view port, but a large rectangular panel that represents the space/navigational sensor array. The access hatch is at the rear with sliding portals and a gangway that swings down to the ground. The portals have view ports (larger than the F's), another nod to the TAS ship. The impulse engines are housed on either side of the craft under the support stabilizers and the warp engines are fitted on the upper sides of the main hull. It sits a bit lower to the ground than the F and should be about the same height or a bit less. My thought is that when the craft is in storage the nacelles slide forward much like aircraft's wings folding for storage on a carrier. It's intende to have a maximum capacity for three or four people and can be fitted for a variety of missions. It's meant as fast transport and extended survey and not for combat.

As I've said before, I'll eventually be adapting a "real world" version of the TAS design that will be immediately recognizable but fleshed out with more detail. Candidly, though, as interesting as the TAS designs are they don't really look TOS in my eyes. And so I'd like to try fashioning something new that serves a similar function, but looks like it would feel right at home in TOS' Starfleet inventory.
 
Make that definite. My previous Class H design is toast. So I'll be going with option 2 or 3.

And until I fashion a convincing new design then Option 2 is my default position (and because Option 1 is kinda boring :lol:)
 
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Personally, I really think you should explore the idea that shuttlecraft are designed to be broken down and put back together quite easily... and that their final form doesn't have to always end up looking like the Class F... maybe there are 5 other possible configurations that can be made from those same basic parts, all that might fill differing roles. That would include configurations without nacelles.

It is just that the boxy design could be to keep it simple to work with and mostly modular.

I mean here is a derivative design that I had thought of entering in this month's contest (until I remembered that I don't enter contests :D ).

shuttlecraft-b.jpg

It uses a truncated version of the hull, impulse engines over where the wings were, shortened cabin with the hatch in the rear... but still mostly the same parts are used. Why re-invent the wheel for things that would be best served by a variation on a theme.
 
Shaw,

You know something? That paper-airplane design concept reminds me of the Space Cruiser Aurora from "The Way to Eden". Hmmmmm...
 
paper-airplane design concept
Well see, maybe it was a good idea that I didn't go forward in the contest with that design (and to think, I was going to build a physical model of it :eek: ). Here is a slightly cleaned up version of that same sketch.

shuttlecraft-c.jpg

Oh well... we can't all be artists. :(
 
Personally, I really think you should explore the idea that shuttlecraft are designed to be broken down and put back together quite easily...
I'm not keen on that idea and it just doesn't work for me, particularly since I'm on track for something that should work.

One of the challenges of any new design exercise is avoiding getting trapped with preconceived notions, particularly when you’re playing in someone else’s sandbox and trying to emulate their thinking.

In fashioning a new shuttlecraft for TOS we’re really trying to get into MJ’s head circa 1964-69. All we have as reference are some archival conceptual material as well as whatever appeared on TOS itself. Specifically, in regards to Starfleet hardware, the Enterprise and its interior sets, the shuttlecraft and assorted equipment. That’s it. In fairness we can extrapolate all we like, but we really shouldn’t look too far beyond that decade for inspiration.

We can avoid the trap, though, of thinking we can only use things already seen exactly as they appeared onscreen. Like the real world we can use things we’ve seen and then extrapolate from that towards something conceptually similar yet still different. And like MJ we can adapt from other references beyond TOS for inspiration.

What else could there be? There are films and other TV shows as well as real world hardware to draw from in that era. The Day The Earth Stood Still, War Of The Worlds, Forbidden Planet, Fantastic Voyage, Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea, Lost In Space, Land Of The Giants and UFO to cite a few. All of them were also designing and constructing sci-fi hardware around that time. There are also the real world military aircraft and even automobile design of the period.

The essential point is that if MJ had to come up with something knew and fresh he hardly would have allowed himself to be overly constrained by what he’d already done. He’d build upon what he’d established and extrapolate further.

We might also make a few assumptions within the context of the TOS universe and without being overly swayed by “official” elements established long after the series had ended production in perhaps something of a retcon fashion.

From TOS alone we get the idea that the Enterprise is easily about fifteen to twenty years old from “The Menagerie” to the end of the third season, and likely more. What that tells us is that’s how Starfleet’s frontline starships were designed twenty years earlier. The design of the Class F shuttlecraft could well date from the same time as well. TOS (regrettably) never showed us anything else. TAS did, but that amounts to two different types of transport as well as three different looking shuttlecraft and there isn’t anything truly drastic in any of that. However, TMP shows that things start to look rather different aesthetically within a few years. And from that we can see that tech and design is not standing still in the TOS universe. We’re still left to fashion something that looks like it readily belongs in TOS, but we can go beyond what we’ve already seen.

A final small consideration regards the idea of what could they have feasibly constructed in the ‘60s? In fairness they likely could have fashioned anything in terms of a comparatively small scale miniature (if you consider 11ft. small). Things get more complicated when you start building fullsize mockups for actors and camera and lighting crews to interact with. In fairness we don’t really have to consider the filming crew’s concerns, but we still should weigh what was possible to build at least passably. In studying Phil Broad’s construction drawings of the fullsize shuttlecraft mockup I could see where compromises were made for the sake of ease of construction as opposed to what they meant to suggest or really wanted to do. Of course, they were also partly constrained by the time and budgetary resources of a television series as opposed to a feature film. The only other fullsize spacecraft mockup on TOS (that I recall) was Lazarus’ timeship from “The Alternative Factor.” And Zefram Cochrane’s house in “Metamorphosis” wasn’t a spacecraft, but it was a fullsize structure. But other television shows and films of the time also managed to fabricate fullsize mockups so those are also indications of what was attainable.

- Lost In Space: the Jupiter 2, the Chariot, the Pod and who knows what other things throughout the series.
- Land Of The Giants: the Spindrift
- Fantastic Voyage: the Proteus submarine
- The Day The Earth Stood Still: Klaatu’s saucer

I’m sure I’m overlooking something so feel free to remind me if you know of other mockups built during the ‘50s and ‘60s. (-:

With all of the above in mind I’ve already got the essential concept and shape of a design in mind for the main bulk of the craft (sketches forthcoming). Presently I’m wrestling with smaller individual elements. A case in point are the warp engines: The only Starfleet warp nacelles we’ve ever seen are those of the Enterprise and the Class F shuttlecraft. TAS used essentially the same things albeit simplified. But as I’ve stated above we have the creative latitude to go beyond that if we accept the idea that the Federation’s tech and design are not static in TOS’ universe and that our new shuttlecraft was designed and developed more recently than the Enterprise and the Class F. To that end I’m close to a new warp nacelle that is still cylindrical, is aesthetically consistent and yet doesn’t look slavishly like the two examples of nacelles we’ve already seen.

The warp nacelles are a significant element because it allows me to design more easily within my earlier stated size constraint of 29ft. L.O.A. as well as allow flexibility for attaining more interior space within the ship. And if I play with the idea that the nacelles are fixed on the upper part of the craft, but not necessarily right at the top of the sides, then that gives me even more creative freedom for an overall look.

If it all falls into place then I’ll have something that has some visual kinship with the TAS design while looking like it actually belongs in TOS.

The only sketches I have at this moment are on scraps of paper and nothing of real substance to properly show where my head is at whith this.
 
I'm not keen on that idea and it just doesn't work for me, particularly since I'm on track for something that should work.

One of the challenges of any new design exercise is avoiding getting trapped with preconceived notions, particularly when you’re playing in someone else’s sandbox and trying to emulate their thinking...
I wasn't attempting to derail you, but one of the issues I always had with post-TOS design was that it seemed to ignore the frontier nature of the environment of TOS. And by that I mean that when things go wrong, the crew is expected to fix most everything on their own. People constantly attribute the look and feel of TOS to budget constraints, which isn't true. Putting greeblies both on model exteriors and set interiors isn't that expensive, and Jefferies lobbied against them from the start. From the start of TOS (in both The Cage and WNMHGB) we see the crew being able to disassemble and reassemble major aspects of the ship (with varying degrees of effectiveness).

And we saw the crew approach the shuttlecraft with the same utility. Heck, the interior wasn't always just seven chairs either... it could be outfitted with a lot of additional equipment if the mission called for it.

Also, the shuttlecraft wasn't strictly Jefferies' sandbox... Thomas Kellogg was a major contributer. One would think that understanding his design ideas would be just as important as understanding Jefferies (and he should be given some credit when acknowledging the original
designers).

I'm not attempting to hijack your design, but if you were a contractor for Star Fleet working on the design for a small craft to be carried aboard their starships, what do you think that they would ask for? I grew up around aircraft carriers, had family that served on them in many different capacities, so they are (rightly or wrongly) generally my touch stone for design functionality (I had family serving on submarines too, but they didn't share as much of their experiences).

I've always thought that AMT throwing up a bunch of limitations on the design of the shuttlecraft served the same purpose of making sure the design met the utility of the situation it was needed to fill. It is why I love the design so much.
 
I'm not keen on that idea and it just doesn't work for me, particularly since I'm on track for something that should work.
I agree with Warped here...
I wasn't attempting to derail you, but one of the issues I always had with post-TOS design was that it seemed to ignore the frontier nature of the environment of TOS. And by that I mean that when things go wrong, the crew is expected to fix most everything on their own. People constantly attribute the look and feel of TOS to budget constraints, which isn't true. Putting greeblies both on model exteriors and set interiors isn't that expensive, and Jefferies lobbied against them from the start. From the start of TOS (in both The Cage and WNMHGB) we see the crew being able to disassemble and reassemble major aspects of the ship (with varying degrees of effectiveness).
Here, I think we're LARGELY on the same page as well, David. Jefferies' designs were thought out. The lack of "greeblies" wasn't something that he was constrained into doing due to budget or lack of time. He had a logical reason for it... and it's one that holds up far better than any supposed "logic" behind "adding more clunky stuff for visual interest" ever will.

However... I think that the modular aspect of the "Trek" universe is more likely to be limited to interchangeable components than it is to "tinkertoy starships" which I think is sort of where you're going.

For instance, you mentioned "WNMHGB." In this show, you hear about equipment being lifted from the processing station to repair the ship. We don't know exactly what hardware is taken, of course, with one major exception... consoles.

Well, this works remarkably well if you think of each of those boxes removed from Delta Vega and reinstalled on the bridge as being a 23rd-century PC. Using that mental image... they'd pull out the PCs from the planet-bound station and install the appropriate software onto them, and voila... you've got a computer doing the job which the old computer (whose motherboard and CPU were fried by a power surge) used to do.

I've always thought that what happened with the Barrier was that control systems throughout the ship were damaged, not the actual mechanisms being controlled. (This also, in a strange sort of way, fits with the "barrier is pure thought" aspect... suppose that the barrier tried to "merge" with the computers first, failed, then finally found a few human brains it could get access to without destroying them in the process.)

With the controlling hardware for the warp drive destroyed... you have no warp drive capacity. With no functional "main reactor controller" you might not be able to run the main reactors, or at least not run them at full output.

I remain convinced that it was all COMPUTERS (including a few organic, neurologically-based ones) that were actually destroyed... nothing else... and to date nobody has convinced me otherwise. ;)

So your "modular" idea in that regard works, and I agree with it... provided that we keep our sense of SCALE in mind... small components are probably interchangeable, but major structural elements?
And we saw the crew approach the shuttlecraft with the same utility. Heck, the interior wasn't always just seven chairs either... it could be outfitted with a lot of additional equipment if the mission called for it.
There was probably even more modularity than that... but we're talking about stuff you can bolt to the floor, or to the walls... not the floor or the walls themselves.

I envision it being very much like what you're accustomed to seeing in a modern airliner... with rails in the floor which allow the interior components to be mounted as knee-bumpingly-close as the particular airline wants, or (rarely) to give you enough room to inhale and exhale without shaking the passengers in front of and behind you!

This approach requires a fixed structure, though. In fact, since you can't rely on the modular elements to be there in any or all situations, you can't count on them for any mechanical support whatsoever... meaning that, if anything, your basic spaceframe needs to be MORE robust.
I'm not attempting to hijack your design, but if you were a contractor for Star Fleet working on the design for a small craft to be carried aboard their starships, what do you think that they would ask for? I grew up around aircraft carriers, had family that served on them in many different capacities, so they are (rightly or wrongly) generally my touch stone for design functionality (I had family serving on submarines too, but they didn't share as much of their experiences).
Perhaps I'm missing what you were really saying, earlier... but let me explain what I THINK you were saying, in terms of the parallel you just tossed out.

In real, US Navy Aviation terms... it's very common for a specific embarked craft to be able to fulfill multiple mission types based upon loadout and configuration. But you do so by strapping on mission pods (FLIR pods for instance, or external fuel tanks, or recon pods)... or by strapping on different weapons systems (iron bombs versus A/G missiles versus A/A missiles, for instance). For helicopters, you have a few other options... including removing the interior seating, installing torpedo drop-racks, sonobuoys, SAR kits, etc.

But in no case do you alter the primary structure of the aircraft, nor the propulsion system of the aircraft, nor the primary instrumentation of the aircraft.

And I think what you're talking about would be akin to taking a Hornet, and stripping the aircraft down to plates and trusses when not in use.

Am I missing your point?
 
Warped9, I have always liked the basic idea of the Class H, but I wouldn't mind you either ejecting it for something that feels a little less kitbashy, or just making the Class F more adaptable. I think what you've described so far for a sleeker Class H is very interesting, and I'm very excited to see the sketches. Since a lot of this is from a sort of 'reimagine TAS' type approach, it's all the more interesting.

However... I think that the modular aspect of the "Trek" universe is more likely to be limited to interchangeable components than it is to "tinkertoy starships" which I think is sort of where you're going.

For instance, you mentioned "WNMHGB." In this show, you hear about equipment being lifted from the processing station to repair the ship. We don't know exactly what hardware is taken, of course, with one major exception... consoles.

Well, this works remarkably well if you think of each of those boxes removed from Delta Vega and reinstalled on the bridge as being a 23rd-century PC. Using that mental image... they'd pull out the PCs from the planet-bound station and install the appropriate software onto them, and voila... you've got a computer doing the job which the old computer (whose motherboard and CPU were fried by a power surge) used to do.

I've always thought that what happened with the Barrier was that control systems throughout the ship were damaged, not the actual mechanisms being controlled. (This also, in a strange sort of way, fits with the "barrier is pure thought" aspect... suppose that the barrier tried to "merge" with the computers first, failed, then finally found a few human brains it could get access to without destroying them in the process.)

With the controlling hardware for the warp drive destroyed... you have no warp drive capacity. With no functional "main reactor controller" you might not be able to run the main reactors, or at least not run them at full output.

I remain convinced that it was all COMPUTERS (including a few organic, neurologically-based ones) that were actually destroyed... nothing else... and to date nobody has convinced me otherwise. ;)

That's actually a very interesting take and good interpolation of what seemed to be going on that I could certainly subscribe to, organic computers or not.

I don't see why, however, you couldn't also have 'tinkertoy starships' as well. The technology seems capable, and it seems like a disadvantage to not use standardized hull and nacelle components that could be easily swapped out and mass-produced. I'm not arguing that all ships be built of exactly the same components, but I don't see why nacelles, at the very least, couldn't be standard in various scales across several starship classes.

So your "modular" idea in that regard works, and I agree with it... provided that we keep our sense of SCALE in mind... small components are probably interchangeable, but major structural elements?There was probably even more modularity than that... but we're talking about stuff you can bolt to the floor, or to the walls... not the floor or the walls themselves.

I envision it being very much like what you're accustomed to seeing in a modern airliner... with rails in the floor which allow the interior components to be mounted as knee-bumpingly-close as the particular airline wants, or (rarely) to give you enough room to inhale and exhale without shaking the passengers in front of and behind you!

This approach requires a fixed structure, though. In fact, since you can't rely on the modular elements to be there in any or all situations, you can't count on them for any mechanical support whatsoever... meaning that, if anything, your basic spaceframe needs to be MORE robust.
I agree with this too.
 
I don't see why, however, you couldn't also have 'tinkertoy starships' as well. The technology seems capable, and it seems like a disadvantage to not use standardized hull and nacelle components that could be easily swapped out and mass-produced. I'm not arguing that all ships be built of exactly the same components, but I don't see why nacelles, at the very least, couldn't be standard in various scales across several starship classes.
I wasn't arguing against that at all.

When I used the term "tinkertoy starships" what I was referring to was how I interpreted (perhaps incorrectly?) what David said... about shuttlecraft being broken down into bits and pieces and reassembled into whatever configuration was needed at any given time.

I don't mind... at all... some "economy of scale" being implemented. Of nacelle housings being made in a common "drydock" facility rather than each one being made individually in a custom-built cradle. Of primary hull frames being built from radial frame sections mass-produced on a big "template" and then welded together into the final shape, rather than every primary hull in a ship series having a unique hull shape (which as likely as not provides no REAL advantage). Having the Reliant's hull built, in part, from the same structural frame members used in new-built Enterprise-class (or "Constitution-refit-class") primary hulls... there's a real economy of scale there... as there is in having corridor wall plating mass-produced, in having desktop viewers mass-produced, etc, etc.

That makes perfect sense ... provided that you don't make massive technical compromises ("warp dynamics" or whatever) in the process. No matter what latter-years-Roddenberry wanted to tell us, there is ALWAYS a "cost" to building a ship, and you'll always want to built it as inexpensively as possible... and get the biggest bang for your buck.

So, any disagreement here seems to be based upon a misperception of what I was saying.
 
Considering how hard it has been to explain modularity in my ideas for how the Enterprise would have been assembled, it is hard to imagine that I would have any better luck getting a similar point across here. For those who are interested, this is a very quick sketch of what I am sort of thinking of...


I don't think that that type of modularity is all that far fetched or outside of reason... even with what has been developed thus far. There are already seams visible inside the shuttlecraft, so maybe that is why they are there.

At any rate, this is already taking far more time than I actually have available for such a discussion... so this is as far as I am willing to go in sponsoring the idea. If anyone disagrees with this, consider it dropped by me... if anyone likes the idea, I hand it all off to you. :techman:
 
When I used the term "tinkertoy starships" what I was referring to was how I interpreted (perhaps incorrectly?) what David said... about shuttlecraft being broken down into bits and pieces and reassembled into whatever configuration was needed at any given time.

[snip]

So, any disagreement here seems to be based upon a misperception of what I was saying.

Ah, you're right, I did misunderstand, and I apologize. For some reason I'm used to hearing people call the Franz Joseph ships and similar rearrangements 'tinkertoy' ships.

And Shaw, I personally find that idea rather intriguing. It certainly seems rather plausible. Shouldn't the part with the hatch technically be part of the 'cockpit' thus giving a bigger forward module, or at least have its own module? Also, for this would you imagine having various different length side panels for different configurations?
 
Well, at any rate I've got a concept that I rather like and now I'm fleshing out details of the component elements. The more I've tweaked it the more I it seems to look TOS like and yet we haven't seen anything like it on TOS, although it does have an element or two that could evoke some things we've seen later. That said I find that while it doesn't look like the TAS design I feel it does evoke it conceptually. In a way it's also similar to executive aircraft where the engines a fixed to the tail of the plane (or kinda like a DC9).

One of the ideas I'm toying with is the aft hatchway is not centred but offset to one side. Also I'm tinkering with my nacelle design. It'll be shorter yet somewhat thicker than the familiar TOS nacelle design and it will have elements making it more its own thing.

For the interior there's a stepped arrangement where the main part of the cabin is standing height (or close to) yet you step a bit up into a cockpit like arrangement where the ceiling needn't be standing height. This setup allows me more flexibility to shape the exterior in a more raked and streamlined way while still allowing for a double hull structure like I have on the Class F.

I'm also considering incorporating some things we might see on contemporary aircraft, such as running lights, small warning signage and the like. Nothing obtrusive to make the design visually busy, but done on a somewhat subtle level to add some telling detail that mightn't register right away but is more noticeable as you study the design further.

My interior chairs will be a bit different (a clue taken from the TAS design), but they won't be aircraft or Recaro like as with contemporary Trek since that wouldn't look TOS like. More like the familiar chairs seen on the Enterprise but with armrests. The consoles and instrumentation will look more streamlined similar to the computer terminal seen in the briefing room. Overhead lighting could be set to the sides rather than directly overhead to allow for more headroom. And the forward bulkhead will be a nod to "The Cage" bridge in a way by being almost all monitor with segments for separate displays, not much different from computer monitor display capabilities today.
 
You know, revisiting this thread after a while got me thinking about your "what if TAS were TOS Season 4 done live?" approach on shuttlecraft props. Had that really happened, would the producers have wanted a new shuttlecraft prop/set that roughly matched Class F in dimensions? I think not - they would have wanted to do something different this time around. They would have wanted either a smaller or a larger vehicle, for different types of plotline, and for parallel rather than alternating use with the Class F prop/set.

I wouldn't wonder if they had gone for a "TOS runabout", a craft that is large both inside and out, and is represented by a partial exterior the way the DS9 runabout was. This craft could be given greater independence than the smaller shuttle, and could be used to separate part of the cast from the mothership yet still have them interact in the complex ways allowed by a multi-room interior full of interesting nooks and crannies.

In that sense, the "Slaver Weapon" Copernicus might have emerged much as is - large and boxy as something you would find in a trailer park, and perhaps actually cobbled together from such material for ease of transportation to location shoots. There'd be moveable internal partitions, a familiar-looking cockpit area, a dramatically interesting means of egress (read: classic airlock or powered ramp) - and, all-importantly, accommodations that would allow for, uh, horizontal action.

The exterior would try to be exciting while agreeing with the boxy internal reality, and this time physical reality would take a backstep since the exterior would be partial. All sorts of flimsy pylons or curvy wings would be possible - but key parts like the door area would remain sufficiently crudely shaped to be reproduced in partial-prop form.

A scale model would no doubt be built, but it wouldn't have to fit inside the hangar bay, as this larger craft would be a companion to the mothership rather than a mere auxiliary.

Food for thought... After you have finished doing what you are currently tied up with. ;)

Timo Saloniemi
 
I was with you Timo until this:

A scale model would no doubt be built, but it wouldn't have to fit inside the hangar bay, as this larger craft would be a companion to the mothership rather than a mere auxiliary.

So it would hang out and travel with it rather than dock inside? Or am I having an idiot moment? (Entirely possible.)
 
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