My TOS shuttlecraft (continued)...
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
I seem to recall seeing sketches somewhere (I think it was Enterprise Incidences magazine?) that showed the various impulse and warp drive attachments for the TMP shuttles, along with weapons pods etc. There was also, in the same issue I think, a version of the TOS shuttle without nacelles and different markings.
My understanding of things is that the "Vulcan shuttle" was at one time intended to be the shuttle for the refit. Andy Probert even created a matte painting showing them in the cargo bay/hangar:
http://probertdesigns.com/Folder_DESIGN/LandingBay-3.html
Although everyone here probably already knows that. :-)
Yup. 
And yes, we've covered this ground before. My angle is only that, while it's clear (although not explicit) that the TOS shuttle had a FTL drive that in all likelihood was yer regular warp drive, we lack clear TOS evidence of that FTL drive's ability to propel the craft from one star system to another - in the sense that it never did.
That is, "The Galileo Seven" shows a situation comparable to traveling from star to star, but does not literally involve traveling from star to star. And "Metamorphosis" shows an aborted run, which involves a "Gamma Canaris region" somewhere near Epsilon Canaris but was never intended to be a star-to-star mission. And "Let That Be Your Last Attempt At Inventing a Supposedly Humorous Version Of The Excessively Long Title", a fugitive was clearly hoping to reach some star system, but again no star-to-star action actually took place.
Yes, this is just sophistry and semantics. But it's a very serious issue whether we give the shuttle abilities comparable to those of a starship or merely the ability to move FTL. TOS did some plotlines where vessels lesser than starships moved from star to star, but if those vessels were portrayed at all, they were indicated to be relatively large. The conceptual leap from shuttle=dinghy to shuttle=yacht is a great one, and one I hesitate to take lightly.
TAS showed what it took to get a shuttle to go from star to star: an apparently runabout-sized thing with a veritable bowling alley of an interior in "Slaver Weapon". Whether that was the lower limit or not is the point worth arguing here - and mainly for purposes of doing further fanfic, not for interpreting already existing Trek material.
Timo Saloniemi
And yes, we've covered this ground before. My angle is only that, while it's clear (although not explicit) that the TOS shuttle had a FTL drive that in all likelihood was yer regular warp drive, we lack clear TOS evidence of that FTL drive's ability to propel the craft from one star system to another - in the sense that it never did.That is, "The Galileo Seven" shows a situation comparable to traveling from star to star, but does not literally involve traveling from star to star. And "Metamorphosis" shows an aborted run, which involves a "Gamma Canaris region" somewhere near Epsilon Canaris but was never intended to be a star-to-star mission. And "Let That Be Your Last Attempt At Inventing a Supposedly Humorous Version Of The Excessively Long Title", a fugitive was clearly hoping to reach some star system, but again no star-to-star action actually took place.
Yes, this is just sophistry and semantics. But it's a very serious issue whether we give the shuttle abilities comparable to those of a starship or merely the ability to move FTL. TOS did some plotlines where vessels lesser than starships moved from star to star, but if those vessels were portrayed at all, they were indicated to be relatively large. The conceptual leap from shuttle=dinghy to shuttle=yacht is a great one, and one I hesitate to take lightly.
TAS showed what it took to get a shuttle to go from star to star: an apparently runabout-sized thing with a veritable bowling alley of an interior in "Slaver Weapon". Whether that was the lower limit or not is the point worth arguing here - and mainly for purposes of doing further fanfic, not for interpreting already existing Trek material.
Timo Saloniemi
My specs on the shuttlecraft give them warp capability, but not nearly as fast as a major starship. When it's reported the Enterprise is "warping out of orbit" in "The Menagerie" it isn't stated how fast the Enterprise is going. If the starbase shuttlecraft caught up reasonably quickly after the Enterprise stopped (assuming omission of an unspecified passage of time not referenced in the story) then the Enterprise likely hadn't been going much faster than perhaps Warp 3 or 4, a bit faster than the capabilities I give my shuttlecraft designs.
In TNG's "Q, Who?" there is reference (by Riker) about shuttlecraft without warpdrive, but later in the series this very same design apparently does have warpdrive after all.
Basically I'm ignoring most of post TOS stuff because it just muddies the technical waters more than they already are. In the past I've tried my hand at drawing up Trek ships and the like, but I didn't have the resources and reference sources and patience I have now.
In TNG's "Q, Who?" there is reference (by Riker) about shuttlecraft without warpdrive, but later in the series this very same design apparently does have warpdrive after all.
Basically I'm ignoring most of post TOS stuff because it just muddies the technical waters more than they already are. In the past I've tried my hand at drawing up Trek ships and the like, but I didn't have the resources and reference sources and patience I have now.
Granted... we never saw star-to-star operations in TOS, but the distances between stars vary greatly.
What would be the real limitations on using a shuttlecraft for extended missions? Most likely the ability to support people for long durations. If you pulled some of the chairs and created a bunk area in their place, you might be able to get a week or more of travel out of them for a couple people. If their range is effected by their speed (going slower, they'll go further), that also effects the passengers.
But asking anyone to spend extended durations (a couple weeks or more) confined to an area hardly bigger than a jail cell would qualify as cruel and unusual punishment in my book.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if some adventuresome, Lindbergh-esque pilot attempted a record breaking journey in one of these (though I doubt anyone wanted to be near him upon his arrival
).
The shuttlecraft have to be able to cross interstellar distances or else what's the point? If they can't then they're practically useless except for filling in when the transporter is unavailable. I wouldn't expect it to cross vast distances (by TOS standards), but it should be able to cover about twenty light years or so if need be.
And, admittedly, I just don't like most Trek post TMP. Call me a biased purist if you must because I really don't care. I just enjoy reveling in the Star Trek that opened up many worlds for me and did it better than most of whatever else that followed even with its missteps. For me TOS is the real deal and the rest is derivative interpretation, and often not very good even at that.
I wonder... The shuttle would be a relatively benign environment, more like a submarine than a bomber in terms of WWII analogies on confined workspaces. Spending a week or three there doesn't sound all that bad, provided the seats recline. Your mention of jail cells is apt: people do spend considerable time in those... Sometimes without the chance to go and stretch their legs outside.
The ability to go interstellar would no doubt lurk somewhere right beyond the Class F "horizon" if that class can't do it yet. The "Slaver Weapon" craft is just a tad smaller than the craft that TOS-R introduced for "Way to Eden", and I'm willing to believe that warp engines of roughly that size are okay for interstellar runs that last a few weeks. Cabins of that size are okay for such runs, too.
Who knows, perhaps we have already seen our Lindbergh? The craft used iby Carter Winston and his imitator in TAS "Survivor" might be the same craft we later see to be shuttle-sized in "Mudd's Passion". If Class F can go interstellar, Winston's ride could go extended interstellar. And even if Class F can't, Winston's vehicle might sacrifice onboard space for a bigger powerplant or some other key step in providing the increased propulsive abilities.
Timo Saloniemi
The ability to go interstellar would no doubt lurk somewhere right beyond the Class F "horizon" if that class can't do it yet. The "Slaver Weapon" craft is just a tad smaller than the craft that TOS-R introduced for "Way to Eden", and I'm willing to believe that warp engines of roughly that size are okay for interstellar runs that last a few weeks. Cabins of that size are okay for such runs, too.
Who knows, perhaps we have already seen our Lindbergh? The craft used iby Carter Winston and his imitator in TAS "Survivor" might be the same craft we later see to be shuttle-sized in "Mudd's Passion". If Class F can go interstellar, Winston's ride could go extended interstellar. And even if Class F can't, Winston's vehicle might sacrifice onboard space for a bigger powerplant or some other key step in providing the increased propulsive abilities.
Timo Saloniemi
I'd think this latter thing is the main reason for their existence, really. A starship is defined as a vehicle that goes from star to star but cannot land on planets; the shuttle shoud be its mirror image. To give the shuttlecraft any star-to-star capacity would be needless overlap IMHO, a bit like giving a frigate's helicopter the ability to "taxi" across the Atlantic on floats.
Timo Saloniemi
^^ I disagree. The shuttlecraft can be an extension of a starship's capabilities albeit in a limited capacity for when the starship must but cannot be in two places at once. Or for when you need a means to get somewhere out of transporter range and/or where the starship can't go for whatever reason.
- Why dispatch the Galileo into the Murasaki effect when the Enterprise should be much better suited to weathering unexpected circumstances?
- Why dispatch the Galileo II to pick up Commissioner Hedford if the Enterprise could do it much faster? Perhaps, as Shaw suggested, there was an unspecified political reason a Federation starship was not welcome in the Gamma Canaris system? And wasn't there some reference in that episode that the Enterprise was off doing something else while the Galileo II was away?
- Why dispatch the Copernicus to Starbase 27 to pick up the Slaver box if the Enterprise could have done it faster?
If shuttlecraft are limited to only a scant few light years, distances that would be nothing to a starship, then the shuttlecraft are next to useless.
Again this is coming down to interpretation of what was offered up onscreen. Not just in regards to how the shuttlecraft are used and depicted, but also how warpdrive is shown to function. More specifically how fast are warp speeds shown to really be?
It may have been Shaw in his own TOS E project thread that said the Enterprise really doesn't have a contemporary equivalent today, just as there is really no historical equivalent to a modern day or even WW2 era aircraft carrier or submarine. These 20th/21st century constructs have capabilities that far outstrip what earlier warships in the conventional sense could ever hope to have. As the battleship was reaching its peak development in WW2 its role and existence was already being undermined by the development of the aircraft carrier and submarine.
And so in true science fiction context why must a futuristic shuttlecraft be relegated strictly to the equivalent capabilities of a contemporary motorboat when we actually see the craft being utilized in ways exceeding those limitations?
Science fiction can be more than just painting a futuristic like veneer over what we're already familiar with. It can and often does envision possibilities beyond and exceeding what we're already familiar with.
- Why dispatch the Galileo into the Murasaki effect when the Enterprise should be much better suited to weathering unexpected circumstances?
- Why dispatch the Galileo II to pick up Commissioner Hedford if the Enterprise could do it much faster? Perhaps, as Shaw suggested, there was an unspecified political reason a Federation starship was not welcome in the Gamma Canaris system? And wasn't there some reference in that episode that the Enterprise was off doing something else while the Galileo II was away?
- Why dispatch the Copernicus to Starbase 27 to pick up the Slaver box if the Enterprise could have done it faster?
If shuttlecraft are limited to only a scant few light years, distances that would be nothing to a starship, then the shuttlecraft are next to useless.
Again this is coming down to interpretation of what was offered up onscreen. Not just in regards to how the shuttlecraft are used and depicted, but also how warpdrive is shown to function. More specifically how fast are warp speeds shown to really be?
It may have been Shaw in his own TOS E project thread that said the Enterprise really doesn't have a contemporary equivalent today, just as there is really no historical equivalent to a modern day or even WW2 era aircraft carrier or submarine. These 20th/21st century constructs have capabilities that far outstrip what earlier warships in the conventional sense could ever hope to have. As the battleship was reaching its peak development in WW2 its role and existence was already being undermined by the development of the aircraft carrier and submarine.
And so in true science fiction context why must a futuristic shuttlecraft be relegated strictly to the equivalent capabilities of a contemporary motorboat when we actually see the craft being utilized in ways exceeding those limitations?
Science fiction can be more than just painting a futuristic like veneer over what we're already familiar with. It can and often does envision possibilities beyond and exceeding what we're already familiar with.
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If a shuttlecraft has nacelles, then it must be warp capable. I am not talking about TNG shuttlepods. They are impulse only. I completely agree with Warped9 about his TOS and TAS shuttlecraft. Even the on screen actions of the shuttlecraft define them as warp capable. Warped9, keep up the great work. This is one of the most well-thought out threads next to Shaw's Enterprise thread. 
In TNG's "Q, Who?" there is reference (by Riker) about shuttlecraft without warpdrive, but later in the series this very same design apparently does have warpdrive after all.
I thought Wesley had made that reference, but the point is the same. Of course, TNG also had a first-season exchange between Riker and Geordi which suggested that Warp Six was full impulse.
That reference wasn't necessarily made wrt the engines of the shuttle. Riker simply said that he initially wanted to search an area with a radius that a shuttlecraft at impulse could have traversed. That's a good starting point; he could later move on to searching an area that a shuttle at warp 1 could have traversed, and then to an area corresponding to warp 2, and so forth, but he had to start somewhere. And he didn't have any warp trails to go by (as the shuttle had been moved by Q's snap of fingers, not by its own engines), or any idea as to why and where the shuttle was taken, so searching a volume with a given radius was the only way to go.
I don't know if the writers of that episode thought the shuttles couldn't do warp. But this dialogue doesn't necessarily suggest let alone prove that they thought so. And certainly a shuttle was written as doing warp (and honest interstellar warp at that) in "Skin of Evil" a season prior already.
I don't have true passion against Class F being interstellar. I do have a vague yearning for a hierarchy of shuttlecraft, though, to echo the nature of boats (esp. military ones) in the real world. Class F looks rather minimalistic, which immediately brings to mind dinghies and comparable boats. Even though TOS offers no examples of less minimalistic craft, TAS already presents us with more substantial auxiliaries - mainly because it can afford to, due to being a cartoon. And shuttles in later spinoffs have only shown an uptrend, again because that's what the artists want to show and that's what they are increasingly more capable of showing, technically and economically. Which is why I like to think that the artists of TAS would have presented their full-size-prop Class F as the smallest and least capable member in a family if they could have afforded to. Going the route of "everything is already available in that package" is a good and valid scifi approach, but it sort of deprives us and the ghosts of the artists of the joy of what could have been.
And IMHO "a suboptimal design doesn't make sense" ain't a valid argument. All designs are suboptimal in the real world. And TOS doesn't really paint any of its other vehicles or tools as an ace-of-all-trades, either: there's always a phaser rifle to the phaser pistol, a bigger computer to do what the tricorder cannot, and so forth. So why not a more warp-capable shuttle to this basic model?
Timo Saloniemi
I don't know if the writers of that episode thought the shuttles couldn't do warp. But this dialogue doesn't necessarily suggest let alone prove that they thought so. And certainly a shuttle was written as doing warp (and honest interstellar warp at that) in "Skin of Evil" a season prior already.
I don't have true passion against Class F being interstellar. I do have a vague yearning for a hierarchy of shuttlecraft, though, to echo the nature of boats (esp. military ones) in the real world. Class F looks rather minimalistic, which immediately brings to mind dinghies and comparable boats. Even though TOS offers no examples of less minimalistic craft, TAS already presents us with more substantial auxiliaries - mainly because it can afford to, due to being a cartoon. And shuttles in later spinoffs have only shown an uptrend, again because that's what the artists want to show and that's what they are increasingly more capable of showing, technically and economically. Which is why I like to think that the artists of TAS would have presented their full-size-prop Class F as the smallest and least capable member in a family if they could have afforded to. Going the route of "everything is already available in that package" is a good and valid scifi approach, but it sort of deprives us and the ghosts of the artists of the joy of what could have been.
And IMHO "a suboptimal design doesn't make sense" ain't a valid argument. All designs are suboptimal in the real world. And TOS doesn't really paint any of its other vehicles or tools as an ace-of-all-trades, either: there's always a phaser rifle to the phaser pistol, a bigger computer to do what the tricorder cannot, and so forth. So why not a more warp-capable shuttle to this basic model?
Timo Saloniemi
^^ The shuttlecraft do look "minimalist," but then so does the interior of the Enterprise. Unfortunately this is a reflection of budgetary constraint for a show that really needed a bit more money to be done properly. But it is what it is and all we can do is speculate on what might be there "behind the walls" so to speak. I've no doubt that there are more basic shuttlecraft, but I remain convinced that these craft would be of little use to ships dispathced on extended deep space missions. But to each his own.
My revisions of the exterior views are proceeding well enough and I'm much more pleased with the results. When I get more done I'll post them.
In the interim I've been doing more sketching. And I'm on to something I quite like and have been ruminating about for quite some time. I like the TMP shuttlecraft design, but candidly I've never been enthralled with them. I think the design works fine with the warp sled such as the Vulcan shuttle, but I've never found them as convincing as starship based vehicles. Likewise I've never been overly crazy about the TFF design either. And so I've long wished for a Class F redesign that looks more credible. Not a refit, of course, but a new design that still manages to evoke the original just as the refit E looks wholly new yet still evokes the original concept. And I think I've got it--when I have more defined sketches I'll post them. A Class F concept with a TMP aesthetic that I think looks rather cool.
My final size is very close. Presently I'm at 26.3335 ft. (26'-4"), but that might go up an inch or so because I'm playing around with the exact placement of the aft landing plate which is dependent on the craft's final landing ground clearance and whether the ship will be level with the deck when landed or tilted back slightly at .326 degrees.
Stay tuned.
My revisions of the exterior views are proceeding well enough and I'm much more pleased with the results. When I get more done I'll post them.
In the interim I've been doing more sketching. And I'm on to something I quite like and have been ruminating about for quite some time. I like the TMP shuttlecraft design, but candidly I've never been enthralled with them. I think the design works fine with the warp sled such as the Vulcan shuttle, but I've never found them as convincing as starship based vehicles. Likewise I've never been overly crazy about the TFF design either. And so I've long wished for a Class F redesign that looks more credible. Not a refit, of course, but a new design that still manages to evoke the original just as the refit E looks wholly new yet still evokes the original concept. And I think I've got it--when I have more defined sketches I'll post them. A Class F concept with a TMP aesthetic that I think looks rather cool.
My final size is very close. Presently I'm at 26.3335 ft. (26'-4"), but that might go up an inch or so because I'm playing around with the exact placement of the aft landing plate which is dependent on the craft's final landing ground clearance and whether the ship will be level with the deck when landed or tilted back slightly at .326 degrees.
Stay tuned.
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Agreed on the first item: it's more enjoyable to think of the sled-pod as an indigenous Vulcan approach. On the second one, I like the parallel to how amphibious landing craft evolved in WWII: an original basic "Higgins boat" evolved into the now-iconic bow ramp craft when classic boat machinery was split so that a path could be opened at centerline. Similarly, Class F could "open up" into the design seen in ST5:TFF and much of subsequent Trek by splitting of the machinery. Yet I'm certainly looking forward to seeing your TMP-era take...
Also, I think your pick of size is optimal in every respect, at least as long as we believe in a TOS Enterprise of traditionally assumed size.
TImo Saloniemi
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FWIW (and apologies if this was brought up at some point and I missed it): what if the shuttles are warp capable, but so limited in range that their warp capabilities are really only useful, for example, to quickly traverse a solar system that a shuttle has been left behind to study, but not so great as to traverse interstellar distances on their own?
I know then the argument might then be 'why equip them with warp drive at all?' but I could see definite advantages in being able to quickly zip across a solar system at warp one rather than puddle across at full impulse.
The one scenario that might contradict this idea is 'The Menagerie.' It sees rather clear that Mendez and Kirk were trying to pursue the Enterprise across an interstellar distance as a last-ditch effort (and plot driven one - evidently the Starbase didn't have a single warp-capable craft available to give chase at the time.) Wasn't mention made of them running out of power when Spock allowed them to catch up by slowing the Enterprise? That could still fit.
I just really really have a problem with what clearly appear to be warp nacelles not being warp nacelles.
I know then the argument might then be 'why equip them with warp drive at all?' but I could see definite advantages in being able to quickly zip across a solar system at warp one rather than puddle across at full impulse.
The one scenario that might contradict this idea is 'The Menagerie.' It sees rather clear that Mendez and Kirk were trying to pursue the Enterprise across an interstellar distance as a last-ditch effort (and plot driven one - evidently the Starbase didn't have a single warp-capable craft available to give chase at the time.) Wasn't mention made of them running out of power when Spock allowed them to catch up by slowing the Enterprise? That could still fit.
I just really really have a problem with what clearly appear to be warp nacelles not being warp nacelles.
This has been discussed before, but the episode doesn't really suggest that Kirk believed in his odds of success. The craft demonstrably didn't have interstellar range there, but stalled relatively quickly after departure. Kirk's intention no doubt was merely to attract Spock's attention, in which he fully succeeded. And Spock's intention might well have been to let Kirk catch up with him; he already had effective command of the ship, and he need not protect his Captain from prosecution if he knew the Talosians could turn the heads of Kirk's superiors (either by weight of evidence, or then by mind tricks). Or then Spock could have been giving Kirk a chance in an effort to fight the Talosians who were mind-controlling the half-Vulcan...
Anyway,
But we know that subspace magic is also essential in allowing for the sort of sublight travel we see. Impulse flight would be impossible if not for the mass-altering attributes of subspace fields. And the generation of a subspace field tends to require a set of coils, which may be best stowed in a standoff nacelle.
Should we vote?
My vote goes to the TAS craft: the Pike ship is such a massive project that I couldn't stand the waiting... And we've sort of already seen the pre-TOS shuttles, which Jeffries designed down to rather fine detail. Certainly more detail than the TAS craft, which are in desperate need of further artistic touch!
Timo Saloniemi
I've pretty much decided that the TAS shuttlecraft will be next. My head is nesr exploding with ideas I want to explore there. The TMP era craft could be a bit tricky because we've never seen the interior of these things, although I will be focusing on the smaller version of the design intended to be accommodated aboard a staship as opposed to the Vulcan design. My own design could actually be a lot easier to render inside and out primarily because of my experience while fleshing out the TOS shuttlecraft and also I'll have a much better idea of what should be there and where it belongs. Another thought regarding the TMP design is that I don't recall actually seeing one of those craft with Enterprise markings on one. Could we speculate that since the Enterprise was really still in final stages of preparation before its hasty launch to intercept Vger that she hadn't yet received her normal complement of standard shuttlecraft and that the few we glimpsed in the hangar area were temporarily berthed there? I mention this because I've roughly scaled the smaller version of the TMP design at easily 30-40ft. LOA for the basic version without any warp bits added to it. Something to ponder and discuss down the road.
The pre TOS shuttlecraft will be adaptations of MJ's early ideas because they were never finalized. And so I feel that some modifications are needed to make them seem more consistent with a TOS/pre-TOS look.
Suffice to say that the forthcoming shuttlecraft plans will likely not be quite as detailed as my TOS shuttlecraft plans--it's just too involved. By "quite as detailed" I'm referring mostly to the interior mechanical guts aspects. But I'll see how things pan out as the projects progress.
In regards to the Pike era Enterprise. The job will now be made much easier because of the stellar work already done by Alan Sinclair, Charles Casimiro and particularly aridas, CRA and Shaw for fleshing out (in?) the interior. My primary focus here is not to retrace ground they've already well covered but to depict the ship more generally, mostly because focus is mostly given to the Kirk era version of the E (which I love) and I have a soft spot for Pike's version. The main interior view I might explore is a cutaway cross section as opposed to the detailed deck-by-deck layouts. Where I may get more detailed would be in regards to certain areas: bridge, transporter room, the hangar facilities and perhaps even uniforms and equipment.
The pre TOS shuttlecraft will be adaptations of MJ's early ideas because they were never finalized. And so I feel that some modifications are needed to make them seem more consistent with a TOS/pre-TOS look.
Suffice to say that the forthcoming shuttlecraft plans will likely not be quite as detailed as my TOS shuttlecraft plans--it's just too involved. By "quite as detailed" I'm referring mostly to the interior mechanical guts aspects. But I'll see how things pan out as the projects progress.
In regards to the Pike era Enterprise. The job will now be made much easier because of the stellar work already done by Alan Sinclair, Charles Casimiro and particularly aridas, CRA and Shaw for fleshing out (in?) the interior. My primary focus here is not to retrace ground they've already well covered but to depict the ship more generally, mostly because focus is mostly given to the Kirk era version of the E (which I love) and I have a soft spot for Pike's version. The main interior view I might explore is a cutaway cross section as opposed to the detailed deck-by-deck layouts. Where I may get more detailed would be in regards to certain areas: bridge, transporter room, the hangar facilities and perhaps even uniforms and equipment.
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I definitely agree Mendez and Kirk didn't think they'd succeed and it was to get Spock's attention, even if the shuttle was low warp capable. Looking back upthread I think I agree with you in principle. I just feel that the nacelles serve as a sort of low warp 'booster' system for non-interstellar flight that might double as the impulse aid you suggest as well.
I vote for the TAS craft too, and I'm glad to see they will probably be next.