My problems with Rom's cloaked minefield

[Nightdiamond]

I know exactly how they did it; MAGIC!

No everybody knows you need a inverse flux capacitor to regulate the ion flow, so the subspace fields can normalize! Geeze, lol..


If I recall, cant replicator units be as small a few feet in length, and one cloaking unit a little bit bigger.

Perhaps the replicator is programmed to replicate the energy for the detonation and batteries too.. a very specific replicator with limited functions..

I have no idea...

 

[Myasishchev]

Zero point? Yuck!

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Yuck?

Zero point energy extraction is a well-established fact in the trekverse.
For example, quantum torpedos use ZPE - that's why they're so powerfull.

 

[kv1at3485]

"Fact"? The DS9:TM is one big propaganda piece.

 

[Praetor]

The DS9TM is pretty specific that the zero-point energy processes of quantum torpedoes are rather labor-intensive to produce, and that half of the quantum torpedoes produced were given to DS9 and the Defiant. Also, from what I gather, it involves increasing the explosiveness of the warhead, and little else.

I don't think there'd be a real benefit from employing it in the mines, and even if they wanted to, it seems like they'd be more valuable as torpedoes.

 

[Myasishchev]

Yuck?

Zero point energy extraction is a well-established fact in the trekverse.
For example, quantum torpedos use ZPE - that's why they're so powerfull.

And thermonuclear bombs use fusion, but in an uncontrolled manner. Q-torps don't bother me but a ZPE generator is very yuck.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The DS9TM is pretty specific that the zero-point energy processes of quantum torpedoes are rather labor-intensive to produce, and that half of the quantum torpedoes produced were given to DS9 and the Defiant. Also, from what I gather, it involves increasing the explosiveness of the warhead, and little else.

I don't think there'd be a real benefit from employing it in the mines, and even if they wanted to, it seems like they'd be more valuable as torpedoes.

One benefit from using zero point energy in mines: you can make them self-replicating without bothering about finite sources of energy, preventing overwhelming dominion reinforcements from coming through the wormhole.

I think the DS9 mines were established as having ZPE power-sources in some technical manual - you should ask on the Trek Tech forum for details.

Yuck?

Zero point energy extraction is a well-established fact in the trekverse.
For example, quantum torpedos use ZPE - that's why they're so powerfull.

And thermonuclear bombs use fusion, but in an uncontrolled manner. Q-torps don't bother me but a ZPE generator is very yuck.

There's only a small step from uncontrolled to controlled reactions - at least in the trekverse. ZPE powered mines are a natural evolution from q torps.

 

[Rick Sternbach]

No mention of the cloak that I saw, or how the replicator was powered. Maybe Mr. Sternbach would pop in to clarify if he happens by?

If a cloak for the mines was in the ep, it probably slipped by when I was writing the text. Wouldn't be too hard to imagine a little cloak generator, as well as a power cell or small M/A power tap to run a replicator.

Rick

 

[Praetor]

No mention of the cloak that I saw, or how the replicator was powered. Maybe Mr. Sternbach would pop in to clarify if he happens by?

If a cloak for the mines was in the ep, it probably slipped by when I was writing the text. Wouldn't be too hard to imagine a little cloak generator, as well as a power cell or small M/A power tap to run a replicator.

Rick

Then there we have it. Thank you, sir.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

No mention of the cloak that I saw, or how the replicator was powered. Maybe Mr. Sternbach would pop in to clarify if he happens by?

If a cloak for the mines was in the ep, it probably slipped by when I was writing the text. Wouldn't be too hard to imagine a little cloak generator, as well as a power cell or small M/A power tap to run a replicator.

Rick

Then there we have it. Thank you, sir.

The problem is - the numbers don't add up.
For a m/am reactor, the used matter+antimatter mass must be equal to the mass of the new mine - and of the old mine (I'm assuming the mines are identical). That's clearly impossible.
And that's just one replication event. A mine was depicted as being able to replicate tens of times.

And, if the new mine is m/am powered, then antimatter can be replicated? In this case, why is antimatter considered so precious in the trekverse?

 

[Praetor]

No.

It's not the energy that's converted into the new mine. Raw matter is converted into the new mine, which is stored in tanks aboard the mines, and also presumably absorbed from mines and ships destroyed by the fields. The M/AM would simply provide the power to operate the replicator, not the matter itself.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

In this case, the mines would need raw matter with a mass equal to their own - each time they replicate. That's equally impossible.

About absorbing matter from debris fiels - that may work if ships were actually destroyed by the mines. The mines replicated for months without access to raw matter.

And what about that replicating antimatter?

 

[Praetor]

In this case, the mines would need raw matter with a mass equal to their own - each time they replicate. That's equally impossible.

"Bucket brigade." It's in the TM. The mines transmit matter from one to the next until the mines in the region needing to replicate have enough to do so.

About absorbing matter from debris fields - that may work if ships were actually destroyed by the mines. The mines replicated for months without access to raw matter.

One might conclude that the adjoining mines absorbed as much of the leftovers as possible from their destroyed counterparts, and made up the difference by absorbing whatever happened to be passing by.

Replicators can make poo into food, remember?

And what about that replicating antimatter?

I'm pretty sure that's impossible, since starships have to have an antmatter generator to create antimatter, which is apparently so power intensive as to be relatively useless.

That might make it more likely that they were non M/AM power cells, then, eh? Rick did say "power cell or M/A power tap."

 

[Timo]

I don't see why replication of antimatter should be any different from replication of other substances. There's no clear physical basis for it.

That said, converting existing matter into antimatter may be treknologically more complex than converting existing matter into matter. It may even be necessary to do the whole E=mcc thing (the one that would be needed when replicating stuff out of pure energy) even in this conversion process, for treknological reason X. But again it's difficult to see the physical basis for this.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

Manipulating antimatter should be child's play with a replicator made out of antimatter. But with a replicator made of matter, I can't believe that the process which can't make food correctly can be tweaked to be so efficient that annihilation reactions don't occur in numbers great enough to foreclose the whole effort.

 

[Timo]

But the replicator doesn't make food imperfectly. It makes imperfect food perfectly. That is, the recipe no doubt is a "compressed" one, omitting finer detail that most people really can't be expected to taste - and the replicator then follows that recipe down to the last quark.

It's debatable if anybody can taste the difference, really. Those who complain may do so out of habit, rather than by the testimony of their taste buds.

Replicators get the most amazing things perfectly right: from neural matter to exocomp circuitry to reality-altering alien machines. Antimatter should be a breeze. Or if it isn't, replication could be made to happen at the center of a protective field, of such nature that antimatter cannot pass but phased matter streams can. That is, simple EM would do the trick.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

In this case, the mines would need raw matter with a mass equal to their own - each time they replicate. That's equally impossible.

"Bucket brigade." It's in the TM. The mines transmit matter from one to the next until the mines in the region needing to replicate have enough to do so.

About absorbing matter from debris fields - that may work if ships were actually destroyed by the mines. The mines replicated for months without access to raw matter.

One might conclude that the adjoining mines absorbed as much of the leftovers as possible from their destroyed counterparts, and made up the difference by absorbing whatever happened to be passing by.

Replicators can make poo into food, remember?

Too little matter is normally adrift in empty space to make an observable difference in the mines' matter reseves.
In order for the mines to create new mines ad infinitum, they have to retrieve ALL the matter of the exploded mines - I'm talking about atoms dispersing quickly into space. That would be energy-intensive and would require an incredibly performant and fine tunned transporter - transporter that can be easily jammed by dominion technology. And I'm assuming the atoms of the destroyed mines are still around and didn't transform into energy or exotic particles, etc.

But that's not the biggest problem. Energy is. Let's say a mine replicates a new one. The new mine must have the same enery reserves as the old one - in order for the mines to replicate ad infinitum. And you have twice the energy you started with.
That breaks the law of conservation of energy.
I guess you could argue that the mines can not only absorb ALL the destroyed mines' matter, but also ALL their energy - but that's even harder to do than the matter trick, and also can be disrupted by dominion tech.

And even if the mines magically managed to recycle all the matter and energy, they still couldn't replicate ad infinitum - because the acts of recycling and replicating require energy that can not be recuperated.
If that's the case, why didn't the dominion shot at them until they depleted their energy?

All in all, it's a rather contrived and unconvincing explanation.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, self-replicating mines are a contrived and unconvincing method of closing the wormhole, but something had to.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

My speculation about using zero point energy is a lot less contrived - and would actually work in the trekverse.

 

[Praetor]

^Except for how rare those zero-point warheads are said to be, and how they are said to function.

Actual zero point power generation is still said to be a ways off.