My poor husband.

[KimMH]

^^^Some of the feel that Borg drones were "happy" to be drones may have come from Seven's desire to rejoin the collective. She felt safe and superior to unjoined minds there - where that feeling came from is anyone's guess - perhaps the thought that there is strength in numbers and might makes right factor in.

A Queenless collective would've been very scary because there is not that one position you can eliminate to topple the group like a house of cards - the idea of an implacable foe that keeps returning regardless how many others you eliminate is alien to human minds - insect like - drones willing to truly throwaway thier lives to move the rest of the group forward without ANY reward for themselves is untenable for many people.

 

[exodus]

^^^Some of the feel that Borg drones were "happy" to be drones may have come from Seven's desire to rejoin the collective. She felt safe and superior to unjoined minds there - where that feeling came from is anyone's guess - perhaps the thought that there is strength in numbers and might makes right factor in.

A Queenless collective would've been very scary because there is not that one position you can eliminate to topple the group like a house of cards - the idea of an implacable foe that keeps returning regardless how many others you eliminate is alien to human minds - insect like - drones willing to truly throwaway thier lives to move the rest of the group forward without ANY reward for themselves is untenable for many people.

Seven wanted to rejoin the collective under duress, not because it made her happy.


Maybe but that's not how Trek villains are. They're all relatable to real world concepts and governments. When the Borg were a faceless enemy, most were asking the question: What/who do the Borg represent? Huge already showed us Borg were individuals taken and made slaves. The next question was, who or what created the Borg? By giving us a Queen, it addresses part of that origin while also giving us a better picture of what the Borg represent. As this had to happen because fans wanted answers on what the Borg were.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Really? I Thought that Star Trek was all about proving that we'd lust and covet a woman of any skin colour (Green for fucks sake!!) no matter how bald they are if they had an enjoyable rack?

The way you describble the Borg has me think of Communist China. Emphasis on the communist bit more than the chinese bit.

 

[Anwar]

And yet, that thread is by far the most viewed thread in the Voyager forum with almost 75,000 views. I must be doing something right.

With a title like that, of course people are going to want to see what is in there.

And this just proves how you clearly don't pay attention to the criticisms of Voyager. I have yet to see a single post on this board where Scorpion was blamed for the downfall of the Borg, the Borg were still extremely dangerous at that point and seeing them getting their asses kicked by an even more powerful enemy did not ruin their image at all. What ruined their image was Janeway breaking into the frickin' throne room and rescuing Seven, or how Voyager went one-on-one with a Borg tactical cube for inane reasons. A lone Federation starship with no backup constantly beating the Borg is what ruined their image, Scorpion is and always was one of the highlights of the Borg in the entire franchise.

They claim Scorpion was the beginning, in that for the first time the Borg were shown to be defeated in outright battle. That moment in itself made the Borg out to be beatable and as such is the very moment the Borg's fall started. Also, they hate that it was a VOY created race that could fight against the Borg. if the 8472 had been introduced in TNG or DS9 then no one would have any problems, it's being a VOY creation that blackmarked them. That VOY dared to create a race that could fight the Borg was an unforgivable sin.

A little?

He once accused me of hating Enterprise and when I corrected him by pointing out that I actually liked the show he called me a liar, because apparently it is impossible to dislike Voyager and like Enterprise.

It IS, people who hate VOY were ready to boycott ENT before any information about the show was released. And even the stuff that gelled fine with canon was still hated by the fandom/hatedom. That's all the proof I need that there's nothing ENT could've done to appease the haters.

GodBen: Niner, Voyager-"hater", Enterprise-liker and TNG-lover. You want to accuse me of lying again?

Niner, that's no surprise. VOY-hater, that's clear as crystal. ENT-liker, impossible, TNG lover not in a million years (since most of the problems VOY haters had were also in TNG). Maybe they don't have the extreme degree of hatred guys like you have for all Trek except DS9 and TOS but they come close.

 

[RyuRoots]

Isn't that a rather severe over-simplification?

 

[Thestral]

Are you seriously sitting there calling people liars to their face? Seriously? Doesn't that violate, I dunno, some kind of ethics or board rule or something?

And you're seriously sitting there saying that A. Niners as a bloc hate Scorpion (because if there's one thing Niners are known for, it's lockstep ), and B. anything created on VOY is automatically blackmarked?

What color is the sky on that world?

Here, you can call me a liar too. I'm a dedicated Niner, Voyager-mostly-enjoyer, Enterprise-mostly-enjoyer and TNG-lover. Go ahead, call me a liar.

 

[TheGodBen]

A little?

He once accused me of hating Enterprise and when I corrected him by pointing out that I actually liked the show he called me a liar, because apparently it is impossible to dislike Voyager and like Enterprise.

It IS, people who hate VOY were ready to boycott ENT before any information about the show was released. And even the stuff that gelled fine with canon was still hated by the fandom/hatedom. That's all the proof I need that there's nothing ENT could've done to appease the haters.

GodBen: Niner, Voyager-"hater", Enterprise-liker and TNG-lover. You want to accuse me of lying again?

Niner, that's no surprise. VOY-hater, that's clear as crystal. ENT-liker, impossible, TNG lover not in a million years (since most of the problems VOY haters had were also in TNG). Maybe they don't have the extreme degree of hatred guys like you have for all Trek except DS9 and TOS but they come close.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Anwar, one of the most offensive people I have ever met on the internet.

I don't fit into his world-view so he accuses me of lying, again. Why? I honestly don't know, but I do know that he will never listen to reason. I never planned to boycott Enterprise, I looked forward to watching it for months and I ended up liking it for the most part. TNG is the show of my childhood, not only do I think it was a great show, but it has a special place in my heart as being my first Star Trek. Does this matter to Anwar? No, because I don't like Voyager and therefore it is impossible for me to have anything but resentment for those shows.

I will never understand that mindset, and how such a person could be a fan of Star Trek I will never know. Whatever happened to IDIC, Anwar?

 

[kes7]

THIS is what I was talking about when I asked a certain person to chill out and not make things so personal.

Anwar, it's not that you have no valid points -- it's that you're hostile and rigid and literally unwilling to consider points of view different from your own. And you insult people when they say something that doesn't match up with your preconception. It's kind of disturbing. Seriously, aren't there rules against personal attacks on this board?

 

[exodus]

The way you describble the Borg has me think of Communist China. Emphasis on the communist bit more than the chinese bit.

Kinda.

I remember watching "First Contact" and Picard describing the temperature on board a Borg Cube. It was hot, sweltering hot actually. Why would modern tech, especially created by the Borg be running hot? Space is cold, hot ship? Hmmm?

Then it hit me.

It's like a sweat shop. Millions of slaves laboring on board a flying sweat shop. What a great metaphor!

 

[Anwar]

THIS is what I was talking about when I asked a certain person to chill out and not make things so personal.

Anwar, it's not that you have no valid points -- it's that you're hostile and rigid and literally unwilling to consider points of view different from your own. And you insult people when they say something that doesn't match up with your preconception. It's kind of disturbing. Seriously, aren't there rules against personal attacks on this board?

I tried being more accepting of VOY haters for 14 years, and I never got anywhere by being tolerant. After that I just decided "Hell with it, if VOY haters refuse to take anyone who enjoys VOY seriously, I'm not going to show any respect whatsoever to VOY haters anymore nor am I going to take anything they say into consideration. They've made it clear they don't want tolerance or acceptance so they're not getting any."

They can change their tune now, stating nonsense like "okay, I thought about it and I think I may have been wrong", but it's WAY too little, WAY too late. They drew the line, and now they have to deal with it if they run into someone who just isn't going to let them get away with their mindless baseless hatred.

What happened to IDIC? The haters happened to it.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'm just trying to point out that when Anwar says Voyager is almost invariably judged more harshly by some than DS9 is, he is correct.

But what Anwar is claiming is that some people set out to hate Voyager from the very beginning and they never gave the show a fair chance. I completely agree that people like me look back on Voyager now and judge it more harshly than the shows we love (in my case DS9 and TNG), but I think it is ridiculous to claim that people set out to hate Voyager. Most of the time the so-called "haters" say that they loved the concept of the show and they were looking forward to it, and we feel that it was the execution of the show which failed, at least for us. I honestly feel that it is a ridiculous claim to say that people set out to hate Voyager. I would completely agree that Voyager is unfairly bashed by some people and I've even felt compelled to defend the show on a number of occasions.

(But not too many, I've got a reputation as a "hater" to maintain. )

They can change their tune now, stating nonsense like "okay, I thought about it and I think I may have been wrong", but it's WAY too little, WAY too late.

This is the first dedicated Star Trek board I've been a member of and I started posting here 8 and a half months ago. Stop judging me for attributes I do not have, and stop doing it to others while you're at it.

 

[exodus]

THIS is what I was talking about when I asked a certain person to chill out and not make things so personal.

Anwar, it's not that you have no valid points -- it's that you're hostile and rigid and literally unwilling to consider points of view different from your own. And you insult people when they say something that doesn't match up with your preconception. It's kind of disturbing. Seriously, aren't there rules against personal attacks on this board?

I tried being more accepting of VOY haters for 14 years, and I never got anywhere by being tolerant. After that I just decided "Hell with it, if VOY haters refuse to take anyone who enjoys VOY seriously, I'm not going to show any respect whatsoever to VOY haters anymore nor am I going to take anything they say into consideration. They've made it clear they don't want tolerance or acceptance so they're not getting any."

They can change their tune now, stating nonsense like "okay, I thought about it and I think I may have been wrong", but it's WAY too little, WAY too late. They drew the line, and now they have to deal with it if they run into someone who just isn't going to let them get away with their mindless baseless hatred.

What happened to IDIC? The haters happened to it.

You're a funny dude, Anwar.
Seriously, who cares what others think?
The only one that should matter about how you feel about a show you like, is you.
If they don't like it, fuck 'em.
It just gives us more Trek to watch than them.


Godben, I agree with him partly.
I do believe there is a percentage of the fanbase that don't like & can't accept change. You saw it when the announcement of the J.J. Abrams film. There were already a set group of people that were dead set against get it a shot or wanting to like any part of it. Many still felt that way after the film came out. Some fans refused to accept TNG, some TNG never bother with DS9. I find it hard to believe that some wouldn't be set against watching Voy. without ever seeing any of it.

We are all aware some take their Trek very, very seriously.

 

[Anwar]

And you're seriously sitting there saying that A. Niners as a bloc hate Scorpion (because if there's one thing Niners are known for, it's lockstep ), and B. anything created on VOY is automatically blackmarked?

In a word, yes. For the most part Niners dismiss the Borg and think the Dominion, Cardassians and Bajorans are the only worthwhile aliens in all of Trek. Those who DO like the Borg were immediately disgusted that someone dared to create a new enemy capable of battling the Borg and winning.

And yes, it's clear from the hatedom that every last one of VOY's original aliens are considered worthless without a single redeeming quality and that no matter well thought out, presented or acted said aliens were the general reaction would be the same. Because to them nothing good could EVER come from VOY.

Of course, had the Kazon been scavengers from the Gamma Quadrant the DS9 crew encountered, or the Vidiians been from the GQ encountered by the DS9 crew, or ANY ONE of VOY's alien races been a DS9 creation instead and EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM was the same, there'd be nothing but unconditional acceptance of them.

What color is the sky on that world?

Used to be blue, then the haters pumped their garbage out and the emmissions made it permenantly grey.

 

[Anwar]

THIS is what I was talking about when I asked a certain person to chill out and not make things so personal.

Anwar, it's not that you have no valid points -- it's that you're hostile and rigid and literally unwilling to consider points of view different from your own. And you insult people when they say something that doesn't match up with your preconception. It's kind of disturbing. Seriously, aren't there rules against personal attacks on this board?

I tried being more accepting of VOY haters for 14 years, and I never got anywhere by being tolerant. After that I just decided "Hell with it, if VOY haters refuse to take anyone who enjoys VOY seriously, I'm not going to show any respect whatsoever to VOY haters anymore nor am I going to take anything they say into consideration. They've made it clear they don't want tolerance or acceptance so they're not getting any."

They can change their tune now, stating nonsense like "okay, I thought about it and I think I may have been wrong", but it's WAY too little, WAY too late. They drew the line, and now they have to deal with it if they run into someone who just isn't going to let them get away with their mindless baseless hatred.

What happened to IDIC? The haters happened to it.

You're a funny dude, Anwar.
Seriously, who cares what others think?
The only one that should matter about how you feel about a show you like, is you.
If they don't like it, fuck 'em.
It just gives us more Trek to watch than them.

I try to be like that, really I do.

They just make it SO hard...

 

[RyuRoots]

There's still the issue of that sweeping over-generalization. For some of your points, I've never seen anyone say them but you. And as for the evil, villainous Niners, I enjoy some eps of Voyager, dislike some. I mean, yeah, I like DS9 better, but I can't enjoy both? It's not POSSIBLE because we like DS9 the best and are self-proclaimed Niners? I do think you should calm down a little. Noone in this thread is calling at Voyager as a horrid show or that all of its aliens sucked. And you're just being too cynical by saying that if something was on DS9 that makes it good in the eyes of the fans. The DS9 MU eps sucked hard, and many others did as well. It's not a perfect show, even though I love it. It had its share of clunkers and bad ideas.

 

[exodus]

I tried being more accepting of VOY haters for 14 years, and I never got anywhere by being tolerant. After that I just decided "Hell with it, if VOY haters refuse to take anyone who enjoys VOY seriously, I'm not going to show any respect whatsoever to VOY haters anymore nor am I going to take anything they say into consideration. They've made it clear they don't want tolerance or acceptance so they're not getting any."

They can change their tune now, stating nonsense like "okay, I thought about it and I think I may have been wrong", but it's WAY too little, WAY too late. They drew the line, and now they have to deal with it if they run into someone who just isn't going to let them get away with their mindless baseless hatred.

What happened to IDIC? The haters happened to it.

You're a funny dude, Anwar.
Seriously, who cares what others think?
The only one that should matter about how you feel about a show you like, is you.
If they don't like it, fuck 'em.
It just gives us more Trek to watch than them.

I try to be like that, really I do.

They just make it SO hard...

When you start taking stuff like this that seriously, it might be time to take a break from the message boards for a bit. Don't get crazy on me, boy!!


This place is just for entertainment.
Try and shake it off and stay easy breezy.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah Exodus, you're right. Last time I got this worked up it was over a similar discussion over how unfairly the Niners treat the VOY alien races. I had a good nights' rest and was fine in the morning.

Heck, I'm going to turn into Navaros at this rate.

 

[Thestral]

Well at least you didn't call me a liar, that's something I guess. Though now you're saying I'm a hater and painting me with the same brush as every other Niner, because that's always a good idea.

For the most part Niners dismiss the Borg and think the Dominion, Cardassians and Bajorans are the only worthwhile aliens in all of Trek. Those who DO like the Borg were immediately disgusted that someone dared to create a new enemy capable of battling the Borg and winning.

I'm a Niner, and I think the Borg are cool. They were far cooler before the Queen, who was introduced by First Contact, which was the best movie until this last one, which means it's complicated. I also think the Queen was put to great use in the ST: Destiny trilogy from Pocket, so that makes it more complicated.

I'm a Niner, and I thought 8472 was one of the best-created aliens of 24th Century Trek. I thought it was awesome that they could defeat the Borg, and their "conversation" with Kes was legitimately scary.

I'm a Niner, and I think the Cardassians are over-fethishized (though still excellent) and that the Trill are also very worthwhile aliens in Trek.

I'm a Niner, and I really liked the Voth, and wished they had been explored more/appeared more than once.

I'm a Niner, and I thought the Hirogen were a solid idea put to middling-to-decent use.

I'm a Niner, and liked the Ocampans despite having problems with their presentation.

And yes, it's clear from the hatedom that ... to them nothing good could EVER come from VOY.

How about putting your money where your mouth is and doing a Poll in the DS9 Forum?

Of course, had the Kazon been scavengers from the Gamma Quadrant the DS9 crew encountered, or the Vidiians been from the GQ encountered by the DS9 crew, or ANY ONE of VOY's alien races been a DS9 creation instead and EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM was the same, there'd be nothing but unconditional acceptance of them.

No. They'd have gone over just as well as the Wadi, the Pah-Wraiths (in many circles), the Ferengi (when played for comedy), or Onaya. Better, in some cases.

ETA:

Heck, I'm going to turn into Navaros at this rate.

No need to go to extremes, there.

 

[Anwar]

How about putting your money where your mouth is and doing a Poll in the DS9 Forum?

My general stance towards DS9 would probably result in a post with leading questions and the like. Probably better if you did one.

No. They'd have gone over just as well as the Wadi, the Pah-Wraiths (in many circles), the Ferengi (when played for comedy), or Onaya. Better, in some cases.

I gotta disagree here, I'm sure on DS9 they'd have excused every last one of the flaws that they kept pointing out when they were on VOY for the VOY Aliens and they'd sing praises about them and how great their concepts were.

And naturally, had Voyager formed a Delta Federation and the Dominion was THEIR main enemy for most of the series whom they spent battling (and the writing was the same as DS9's Dominion War), the Haters would spew endless garbage about how it was the worst idea ever and how it betrayed every one of Trek's ideals. Because when DS9 betrays a Trek Ideal it's good, when anyone else does it then it must be bad.

 

[exodus]

Yeah Exodus, you're right. Last time I got this worked up it was over a similar discussion over how unfairly the Niners treat the VOY alien races. I had a good nights' rest and was fine in the morning.

Heck, I'm going to turn into Navaros at this rate.

Yeah dude, sounds like you just have "Board Burnout".