My poor husband.

[Thestral]

They just complain that the Borg weren't able to fight off the 8472 on their own, or how dumb it was to even entertain the idea of them working with VOY, or how it should have been some kind of series long arc with the Borg fighting them all the time and being more tactical and stuff.

And like I said, the prejudice against VOY meant that if "Pale Moonlight" had been a VOY episode and everything about it was the same they'd still hate it.

When you say "they," I'm guessing you're referring to hard-core Niners?

And when referring to hard-core Niners, Anwar means these pretty little made-up people. I guarantee you that, had "ItPM" been a VOY episode, it would have been just as successful and beloved. If you had done a one for one character swap of VOY and DS9 crew, with all other writing and plot (except in species-specific cases like "Equilibrium" or "Meld") remaining the same, Captain Janeway and crew would be as beloved by Niners as Sisko and crew are.

ETA:

Niners, VOY-haters, ENT-haters, TNG-haters. They're all basically the same thing.

What a load of tosh. Absolute horse piss.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But dressed up like Boothby? Where's the diversity in that?

Frankly, I don't understand how he went from being Picards personal friend to nearly everybodys.

At the first mention, it almost sounded like Boothby was in charge of vetting the new classmen ensuring the validity of the crop.

However, Picard isn't so all that...

PICARD: Walter Horne? Is he still teaching?
WESLEY: Yeah, he is. And he's good too. And you'll be pleased to know I took your advice. The first week that I was there, I went and met Boothby.
PICARD: How is old Boothby? I hope he didn't tell you a lot of stories about me.
WESLEY: He didn't remember you, sir. At first. I found an old yearbook photo and he remembered you right away. He said he's very proud of you that you're Captain of the Enterprise.

 

[RyuRoots]

Niners, VOY-haters, ENT-haters, TNG-haters. They're all basically the same thing.

Excuse you, I'm a hardcore Niner, and I am most certainly not a VOY-hater and sure as hell not a TNG-hater. ENT? Maybe a little, but it has SOME things going for it. I like Voyager, and I love quite a few episodes.

And when did I ever say I wanted the Kazon to be super badass warlords of the Delta Quadrant? I would've been fine if they had been more intelligent, more organized within factions, but every bit as factionalized and divided. And give them their own culture instead of making them come off like Dollar Store Klingons. But especially more intelligent. Culluh was the posterboy of the idiot nemesis.

Seska: Culluh, do this.
Culluh: Shut up! I'm the man! I make the plans!...okay, we'll do your plan.

 

[Anwar]

And when referring to hard-core Niners, Anwar means these pretty little made-up people. I guarantee you that, had "ItPM" been a VOY episode, it would have been just as successful and beloved.

Hardly, if ITPM was a VOY episode the main reaction would have been over how weak, pathetic and hypocritical it made Janeway out to be, that it was stupid of her to enlist a known spy/assassin for aid, and that she was a traitor to the Federation. In other words, the opposite reaction to Sisko.

If you had done a one for one character swap of VOY and DS9 crew, with all other writing and plot (except in species-specific cases like "Equilibrium" or "Meld") remaining the same, Captain Janeway and crew would be as beloved by Niners as Sisko and crew are.

No way, Sisko on VOY would be praised for his engenuity and how he took out the Borg at the end, whereas Janeway on DS9 would be looked down upon as the Captain who started a war and got off at the end by becoming a God.

What a load of tosh. Absolute horse piss.

Niners have had it out for TNG/VOY/ENT fans for years, dude. Then they went on the become BSG fans and got even worse.

 

[Anwar]

And when did I ever say I wanted the Kazon to be super badass warlords of the Delta Quadrant? I would've been fine if they had been more intelligent, more organized within factions, but every bit as factionalized and divided. And give them their own culture instead of making them come off like Dollar Store Klingons. But especially more intelligent. Culluh was the posterboy of the idiot nemesis.

Seska: Culluh, do this.
Culluh: Shut up! I'm the man! I make the plans!...okay, we'll do your plan.

1) How else were they going to make Seska out to be the archvillain?

2) Make them too intelligent, and the show is over.

VOY had only one ship on its own. It's villains couldn't afford to win anything or the show would be over. This isn't like DS9 where the writers had the entire Trekverse to play with and armadas to fight around with.

 

[RyuRoots]

1) Make her a puppetmaster type character instead of the advisor to an idiot
2) I'm not saying make them geniuses. But pre-Starfleet Nog could've probably found a way to dupe these jokers.

 

[Anwar]

How was she, all on her own without her own ship or crew, supposed to be a chessmaster manipulating an entire Kazon Tribe?

And like I said, up against a mighty empire as powerful as the Klingons or Romulans, VOY could never survive. It's either make them weak in terms of firepower and tactics, or make them strong and VOY gets blown away.

 

[kes7]

Calm down, people, it's just TV.

No one has it out for anyone else. It's all a matter of taste. All the shows had strengths and weaknesses. You can like one or a few or all of them, or none of them at all. It shouldn't be this personal.

 

[RyuRoots]

Hm? It's not personal. Just a discussion.

@Anwar: Well, she made a lackey out of Culluh, whether he admits it or not. A chessmaster's strength is intellect and manipulation. I can believe she'd be able to spread influence among others. As for the Kazon, their greatest weakness could've been how factionalized and aggressive they were to those not aligned to one's own faction. Specifically not an empire, you see. I think there are more ways to go about it than making them the loony toons rejects they came off as.

 

[TheGodBen]

And suffice to say, those "variety of reasons" are the utter, utter nonsense.

And yet, that thread is by far the most viewed thread in the Voyager forum with almost 75,000 views. I must be doing something right.

Considering the complaints over how Scorpion irrevocably ruined the Borg because 8472 could fight back...

And this just proves how you clearly don't pay attention to the criticisms of Voyager. I have yet to see a single post on this board where Scorpion was blamed for the downfall of the Borg, the Borg were still extremely dangerous at that point and seeing them getting their asses kicked by an even more powerful enemy did not ruin their image at all. What ruined their image was Janeway breaking into the frickin' throne room and rescuing Seven, or how Voyager went one-on-one with a Borg tactical cube for inane reasons. A lone Federation starship with no backup constantly beating the Borg is what ruined their image, Scorpion is and always was one of the highlights of the Borg in the entire franchise.

I think you're a little oversensitive.

A little?

He once accused me of hating Enterprise and when I corrected him by pointing out that I actually liked the show he called me a liar, because apparently it is impossible to dislike Voyager and like Enterprise. Anwar has a specific world-view and if you don't fit into it he either ignores you or accuses you of lying, which is extremely ironic considering considering how narrow-minded he accuses people like me of being.

Niners, VOY-haters, ENT-haters, TNG-haters. They're all basically the same thing.

GodBen: Niner, Voyager-"hater", Enterprise-liker and TNG-lover. You want to accuse me of lying again?

 

[timelord1010]

I'm a DS9 fan and I like all of the other Trek series as well. I just dislike certain episodes of the other series as well as some episodes of DS9.

It is crazy to think that if you are a fan of one series you have to automatically hate the other series. Even if someone hates another series, so what? It's their time to do with what they want. That's what makes us human: free will. The Vulcans said it better with IDIC.

 

[exodus]

I think you're a little oversensitive. I've never heard anyone say that Scorpion ruined the Borg. "I, Borg," yes. "Descent I and II," yes. "Dark Frontier," yes. The Borg children arc, yes. But the Borg in Scorpion were plenty scary (note the lack of Queen -- this is the key to terrifying Borg) and 8472 didn't diminish that.

I'm going to disagree about "Dark Frontier". I found it the second best Voy. Borg ep. next to "Scorpion". I also liked how the Queen added a "slave master" vibe to the collective. The Borg needed the Queen because hearing "Resistance is Futile" over & over again would have gotten played out real fast.

 

[kes7]

I think you're a little oversensitive. I've never heard anyone say that Scorpion ruined the Borg. "I, Borg," yes. "Descent I and II," yes. "Dark Frontier," yes. The Borg children arc, yes. But the Borg in Scorpion were plenty scary (note the lack of Queen -- this is the key to terrifying Borg) and 8472 didn't diminish that.

I'm going to disagree about "Dark Frontier". I found it the second best Voy. Borg ep. next to "Scorpion". I also liked how the Queen added a "slave master" vibe to the collective. The Borg needed the Queen because hearing "Resistance is Futile" over & over again would have gotten played out real fast.

I think the Borg could have adapted without the Queen. "State your demands" was a start. The hive mind wasn't very hive like whenever the Queen showed up -- it was just the slave master and her mindless drones. The species ceased to be terrifying and just became tragic. I liked the Borg better when they seemed to be happy being Borg. They were MUCH scarier that way.

 

[TheGodBen]

It is crazy to think that if you are a fan of one series you have to automatically hate the other series. Even if someone hates another series, so what? It's their time to do with what they want. That's what makes us human: free will. The Vulcans said it better with IDIC.

Exactly, we all have our likes and dislikes and we have our own reasons for having them, someone that likes Voyager is no more wrong than somebody that likes DS9. As the great prophet Brian once said: "You're all individuals. You're all different."

I'm not.

Shhhh!

 

[JustKate]

Actually, while I don't agree with everything Anwar has said, I do agree with what I think is one of his main points, which is that there is a...how to put this?...an "I hate Voyager" culture among Niners, and it's far more virulent, as far as I can see, than even "TNG is bland," another extremely popular sentiment among Niners.

I'm not trying to restart any of these arguments here - I love four out of the five ST shows (not crazy about Enterprise) for various reasons. I'm just trying to point out that when Anwar says Voyager is almost invariably judged more harshly by some than DS9 is, he is correct. And that dislike does get really, really personal sometimes. I don't get it either - it is just TV, after all - but I've seen it over and over again in the DS9 forum, and I expect some of you have as well. And actually in this forum, I have seen a tendency, though it is most certainly not universal, to give VOY too much slack, though that favoritism is seldom as, um, emphatic as that found in the DS9 forum.

This isn't true of all Niners, of course, but it is among many of of the more vocal ones, particularly the ones that self-identify as Niners. That doesn't of course mean that all Niners hate VOY, but those of you who frequent the DS9 forum know - come on, admit it - that "Voyager SUCKS!" is an extremely popular sentiment there, and you also know that that opinion isn't always based on sound reasoning. It's a far, far, far more popular opinion, at least among those posters who like to air their opinion on such things, than Kes7's "It's all a matter of taste. All the shows had strengths and weaknesses."

Which is, don't get me wrong, absolutely true...but you won't get that many people to agree with it in the DS9 forum, at least not publicly. All you have to do to get lots of Niners roused and enthusiastic is to talk about how inferior in every way Voyager is to DS9. You'll even hear it from Niners who have in fact only seen a few episodes of Voyager, but that doesn't prevent them from having a very definite opinion on it.

And I think Anwar is right that things that are not only forgiven in a beloved DS9 character but also admired would be absolutely condemned if Janeway did them. Because "Janeway SUCKS!" is almost as popular in the DS9 forum as the equivalent statement about Voyager.

 

[exodus]

I think you're a little oversensitive. I've never heard anyone say that Scorpion ruined the Borg. "I, Borg," yes. "Descent I and II," yes. "Dark Frontier," yes. The Borg children arc, yes. But the Borg in Scorpion were plenty scary (note the lack of Queen -- this is the key to terrifying Borg) and 8472 didn't diminish that.

I'm going to disagree about "Dark Frontier". I found it the second best Voy. Borg ep. next to "Scorpion". I also liked how the Queen added a "slave master" vibe to the collective. The Borg needed the Queen because hearing "Resistance is Futile" over & over again would have gotten played out real fast.

I think the Borg could have adapted without the Queen. "State your demands" was a start. The hive mind wasn't very hive like whenever the Queen showed up -- it was just the slave master and her mindless drones. The species ceased to be terrifying and just became tragic. I liked the Borg better when they seemed to be happy being Borg. They were MUCH scarier that way.

Slavery isn't scary?

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah, and also I don't know that the Borg ever seemed "happy being Borg." Or content. Or unhappy. Or...well, anything, really. Mindless automotons aren't capable of happiness or any other emotion, really, and that's what the Borg pretty much were.

 

[exodus]

Actually, while I don't agree with everything Anwar has said, I do agree with what I think is one of his main points, which is that there is a...how to put this?...an "I hate Voyager" culture among Niners, and it's far more virulent, as far as I can see, than even "TNG is bland," another extremely popular sentiment among Niners.

I'm not trying to restart any of these arguments here - I love four out of the five ST shows (not crazy about Enterprise) for various reasons. I'm just trying to point out that when Anwar says Voyager is almost invariably judged more harshly by some than DS9 is, he is correct. And that dislike does get really, really personal sometimes. I don't get it either - it is just TV, after all - but I've seen it over and over again in the DS9 forum, and I expect some of you have as well. And actually in this forum, I have seen a tendency, though it is most certainly not universal, to give VOY too much slack, though that favoritism is seldom as, um, emphatic as that found in the DS9 forum.

This isn't true of all Niners, of course, but it is among many of of the more vocal ones, particularly the ones that self-identify as Niners. That doesn't of course mean that all Niners hate VOY, but those of you who frequent the DS9 forum know - come on, admit it - that "Voyager SUCKS!" is an extremely popular sentiment there, and you also know that that opinion isn't always based on sound reasoning. It's a far, far, far more popular opinion, at least among those posters who like to air their opinion on such things, than Kes7's "It's all a matter of taste. All the shows had strengths and weaknesses."

Which is, don't get me wrong, absolutely true...but you won't get that many people to agree with it in the DS9 forum, at least not publicly. All you have to do to get lots of Niners roused and enthusiastic is to talk about how inferior in every way Voyager is to DS9. You'll even hear it from Niners who have in fact only seen a few episodes of Voyager, but that doesn't prevent them from having a very definite opinion on it.

And I think Anwar is right that things that are not only forgiven in a beloved DS9 character but also admired would be absolutely condemned if Janeway did them. Because "Janeway SUCKS!" is almost as popular in the DS9 forum as the equivalent statement about Voyager.

That is why you can't take what's said on message boards as absolute. Message boards would have you believe that DS9 is better than sliced bread. However if you go amoung the mass public, most don't even know the characters on DS9 but they know Janeway & Seven of Nine. Not to mention DS9 only became praised in retrospect. While the show was on, most of those that now praise it were the same ones complaining is was boring because they didn't go anywhere thus the drop off in viewership.

 

[kes7]

I'm going to disagree about "Dark Frontier". I found it the second best Voy. Borg ep. next to "Scorpion". I also liked how the Queen added a "slave master" vibe to the collective. The Borg needed the Queen because hearing "Resistance is Futile" over & over again would have gotten played out real fast.

I think the Borg could have adapted without the Queen. "State your demands" was a start. The hive mind wasn't very hive like whenever the Queen showed up -- it was just the slave master and her mindless drones. The species ceased to be terrifying and just became tragic. I liked the Borg better when they seemed to be happy being Borg. They were MUCH scarier that way.

Slavery isn't scary?

Slavery is scary. Slaves themselves are not. There's a difference. When we saw the Borg in Q Who?, the Borg were part of a hive mind (a truly alien concept to us). We didn't know if they'd chosen that way of life, but they certainly seemed convinced of their own superiority, evoking a certain sense of contentment, if not outright happiness.

 

[exodus]

I think the Borg could have adapted without the Queen. "State your demands" was a start. The hive mind wasn't very hive like whenever the Queen showed up -- it was just the slave master and her mindless drones. The species ceased to be terrifying and just became tragic. I liked the Borg better when they seemed to be happy being Borg. They were MUCH scarier that way.

Slavery isn't scary?

Slavery is scary. Slaves themselves are not. There's a difference. When we saw the Borg in Q Who?, the Borg were part of a hive mind (a truly alien concept to us). We didn't know if they'd chosen that way of life, but they certainly seemed convinced of their own superiority, evoking a certain sense of contentment, if not outright happiness.

The hive mind is a philosophical debate waiting to happen that nobody in Trek fandom sem to catch on to. The question is; if the Borg are of one mind, who mind is dominate? If the Borg are billions of species, some of which are enemies. Then how to you get order from that chaos if one mind isn't chosen to be dominate over the others?

If species all over the 4 Quads do all they can to resist being Borg, why would you think anyone who is a drone has achieved happiness? That's the lie of slavery to keep the slaves sub-servant to their master.