My name is...Khan?

[Jedi_Master]

Before this argument gets any longer, I want to remind all the participants that Khan's introduction could have been worse if he had gone to the Marshall Mathers School of etiquette.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNPnbI1arSE[/yt]

 

[Franklin]

I've often wondered how many people who went to STID ever even saw "Space Seed", especially within the last ten years.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I've often wondered how many people who went to STID ever even saw "Space Seed", especially within the last ten years.

I didn't watch that episode until after I saw STiD.

For me it didn't make all that much of a difference.
It was two very different portrayals of the same character, and they both had their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[JWPlatt]

I think it comes from casting a white European (Abrams is white, as are, by external appearance, casting directors April Webster and Alyssa Weisberg) instead of an Arabian for the role of a Sikh, which misses the point that Ricardo Montalbán was Mexican - not Arabian. So now there's the problem of whether to be true to the role or to the original lead.

All of that ignores the reality of what you have to do when the preferred star, Benicio Del Toro, drops out of negotiations and leaves the production scrambling for another A-list actor before the film’s scheduled production start-date.

Why would an "Arabian" be cast as a Sikh from India? How is that "true to the role"? You do realize that Arabs and Indians aren't the same, right?

While Montalban was born in Mexico, his parents were from Spain. He's as much a "White European" as Cumberbatch.

I forgot he was supposed to be Indian. I simply could not care less about which race Khan was or the race of the actor who portrays him. I do care about why other people think it matters a whit.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

In Space Seed, Montalban is moving his mouth pretty much the same way when he is first revived.

See? The reboot can't do anything original. Everything is copied.

Or changed in violation of the canon.

But I love Benedict Cumberbatch, so boo-ya.

 

[Franklin]

Abrams went with the conventional "look alike" idea by going after Del Toro (and apparently some other "look alikes" as well). But when Del Toro fell through, Cumberbatch wowed them with his audition and his take on Khan. So, they ended up sacrificing "visual accuracy" for Cumberbatch. Worked for me.

Besides not looking "Khan enough," Cumberbatch was also fourteen years younger than Montalban was in 1967. Del Toro was four years younger. So, for looks and age, he was a much better fit. I'm actually surprised Cumberbatch's comparative youth doesn't get mentioned more often.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

They're not supposed to be cabon copies of their old versions, anyway. Otherwise, no-one would need to bother making new movies...DON'T SAY IT!

 

[BillJ]

Cumberbatch sold me with the "you should have let me sleep" scene. Cold and dispassionate one minute, raging psychopath the next.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Cumberbatch sold me with the "you should have let me sleep" scene. Cold and dispassionate one minute, raging psychopath the next.

I thought that was his best line. I didn't like where they went with the character - he was ambiguous and could've been an uneasy ally, but then the writers got cold feet and made Kirk shoot him, and he went all bananas. You know, so there wouldn't be any grey areas, to make it easy for the audience: "good guy vs. bad guy".

That was a bit of a downer, because I was quite pleased up until that point. They could've saved his bigger bad status for the next movie, but they decided to cop out. I don't like it when they cop out.

Like Doug and Rob Walker said: the movie was cool up until the last half hour, where it went sort of downhill. Not enough to ruin it for me, but that turn it took annoyed me nonetheless.

 

[Franklin]

Cumberbatch sold me with the "you should have let me sleep" scene. Cold and dispassionate one minute, raging psychopath the next.

I thought that was his best line. I didn't like where they went with the character - he was ambiguous and could've been an uneasy ally, but then the writers got cold feet and made Kirk shoot him, and he went all bananas. You know, so there wouldn't be any grey areas, to make it easy for the audience: "good guy vs. bad guy".

That was a bit of a downer, because I was quite pleased up until that point. They could've saved his bigger bad status for the next movie, but they decided to cop out. I don't like it when they cop out.

Like Doug and Rob Walker said: the movie was cool up until the last half hour, where it went sort of downhill. Not enough to ruin it for me, but that turn it took annoyed me nonetheless.

I see your point, but Kirk is the one who actually set us up for that earlier when he told Khan in no uncertain terms that he needed his help, but said he would still see to it that Khan was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if they got out of it, no matter how useful or cooperative he was. No gray area there for Kirk.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Yes, that's true, but I still hoped they would go the other way, you know. What we got was just sort of, I don't know, the safest route. And since I was hoping they'd not make Khan flip his shit in the climax, it was a tad disappointing to me when that's exactly what happened.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder if people would have preferred Kirk's reaction to be this

Khan: My name is KHAN!

Kirk: Nice to meet you Connie, my name is Jim.

 

[eyeresist]

I didn't like where they went with the character - he was ambiguous and could've been an uneasy ally, but then the writers got cold feet and made Kirk shoot him, and he went all bananas. You know, so there wouldn't be any grey areas, to make it easy for the audience: "good guy vs. bad guy".

That was a bit of a downer, because I was quite pleased up until that point. They could've saved his bigger bad status for the next movie, but they decided to cop out.

I agree - I enjoyed the new Khan-Kirk relationship, and thought making Khan an uneasy ally rather than outright enemy would be an interesting twist for this new iteration. Then in a later film Khan is attacking a planet to get lebensraum for his people, Kirk tries to reason with him but finally has to blow him away.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

^ That's what I thought was going to happen, and I was happy about it. Then, they copped out. Bummer.

 

[Smellmet]

Cumberbatch sold me with the "you should have let me sleep" scene. Cold and dispassionate one minute, raging psychopath the next.

I thought that was his best line. I didn't like where they went with the character - he was ambiguous and could've been an uneasy ally, but then the writers got cold feet and made Kirk shoot him, and he went all bananas. You know, so there wouldn't be any grey areas, to make it easy for the audience: "good guy vs. bad guy".

That was a bit of a downer, because I was quite pleased up until that point. They could've saved his bigger bad status for the next movie, but they decided to cop out. I don't like it when they cop out.

Like Doug and Rob Walker said: the movie was cool up until the last half hour, where it went sort of downhill. Not enough to ruin it for me, but that turn it took annoyed me nonetheless.

I thought his best lines/best aspect of his performance was the first encounter in the brig 'are you going to punch me over and over until your arm weakens' bit. I loved that exchange. He was at his most menacing then without going over the top.

 

[fireproof78]

Cumberbatch sold me with the "you should have let me sleep" scene. Cold and dispassionate one minute, raging psychopath the next.

I thought that was his best line. I didn't like where they went with the character - he was ambiguous and could've been an uneasy ally, but then the writers got cold feet and made Kirk shoot him, and he went all bananas. You know, so there wouldn't be any grey areas, to make it easy for the audience: "good guy vs. bad guy".

That was a bit of a downer, because I was quite pleased up until that point. They could've saved his bigger bad status for the next movie, but they decided to cop out. I don't like it when they cop out.

Like Doug and Rob Walker said: the movie was cool up until the last half hour, where it went sort of downhill. Not enough to ruin it for me, but that turn it took annoyed me nonetheless.

I thought his best lines/best aspect of his performance was the first encounter in the brig 'are you going to punch me over and over until your arm weakens' bit. I loved that exchange. He was at his most menacing then without going over the top.

Mine too. I love that exchange in the brig. His almost sigh of boredom talking about Kirk hitting him is so wonderfully delivered.

Similarly, I love his talk with Spock, about playing it out logically, and walking over their cold, dead, corpses. Culminated with the trailer line, "Shall we begin?" is one of my favorite lines.